How to make stereo

RE: How to make stereo (RobertB)

Tue, 02 Jan 2007 23:28:13 GMT

Beagle,
I have a hard ceiling at $300. I'm not opposed to active monitors, but I would like to keep the reciever/amp in the chain for routing reasons, if possible. KRK, Behringer, etc. I'm still looking for the passive version of the Alesis M1's but I'm beginning to think that was a typo in what I read. I'm certainly open to suggestion, but after 20 years with my HPM's, whatever I get needs to sound great!

RE: How to make stereo (gamblerschoice)

Tue, 02 Jan 2007 23:25:05 GMT

There really are a lot to choose from, I get some cataloges from parts supply houses and musicians friends and others, so, this may take a while. Wish I could order up a few and test them out, I hate buying a pig in a poke.
Later
Albert

RE: How to make stereo (Beagle)

Tue, 02 Jan 2007 23:12:58 GMT

Al - if you can afford them, I'd suggest looking at the KRK series. They're probably what I will upgrade to one of these days.

I just not long ago got some M-audio DX4's - ~$150 per pair, but the KRK 5's are $150 EACH. They sound incredible. Someone else has suggested the Behringer Truth's in this price range. Some reviews I've heard are pretty good for the price.

RE: How to make stereo (Beagle)

Tue, 02 Jan 2007 23:09:15 GMT

ORIGINAL: RobertB

This brings us to Tweak's Law, which says, whatever your monitors are good at is exactly what your mix will be bad at.]

This pretty much sums it up, and thanks for the links Beagle. This has come to be an interesting thread, and we all want to put our best foot forward.
I'm looking into monitors, but just as a possible point of interest, this is the response curve on my home stereo speakers.
[image]dummy[/image]
These are Pioneer HPM-100's, pretty decent in their day, and long out of production.
I have listened to various mixes on car stereos, portable stereos, and other computers. Once you get a feel for how your mix translates, you get a very good idea of what is being emphasized on your own system, and you can adjust for Tweak's Law. It will be interesting to see how monitors affect things.

What monitors are you looking at getting, Bob?

RE: How to make stereo (gamblerschoice)

Tue, 02 Jan 2007 21:54:33 GMT

Tax Refund...why didn't I think of that.
Thanks.
Now for some googling...

RE: How to make stereo (RobertB)

Tue, 02 Jan 2007 21:36:26 GMT

Tax refund?" />

RE: How to make stereo (gamblerschoice)

Tue, 02 Jan 2007 21:31:52 GMT

I had been doing as robo suggested, listening on various systems, actually getting good results most everywhere, but the evidence seems to point to speciallized, powered reference monitors.
I'm sold...but how do I explain to my wife that I need just one more piece of equipment? This is not gonna be easy, Chrismas is over, birthday ain't till october, Easter bunny?
Nothing ever goes the way I plan it.
Later
Albert

RE: How to make stereo (RobertB)

Tue, 02 Jan 2007 21:04:24 GMT

This brings us to Tweak's Law, which says, whatever your monitors are good at is exactly what your mix will be bad at.]

This pretty much sums it up, and thanks for the links Beagle. This has come to be an interesting thread, and we all want to put our best foot forward.
I'm looking into monitors, but just as a possible point of interest, this is the response curve on my home stereo speakers.

These are Pioneer HPM-100's, pretty decent in their day, and long out of production.
I have listened to various mixes on car stereos, portable stereos, and other computers. Once you get a feel for how your mix translates, you get a very good idea of what is being emphasized on your own system, and you can adjust for Tweak's Law. It will be interesting to see how monitors affect things.

RE: How to make stereo (wickerman)

Tue, 02 Jan 2007 20:30:10 GMT

Right, and if you're going to be making an investment in some sort of monitoring device - you may as well get something that would be better suited for recording.

I'm with headphones right now, but they are dying slowly on me - so thanks Reece for those links and the info.

RE: How to make stereo (Robomusic)

Tue, 02 Jan 2007 18:36:17 GMT

Beagster is right on this one (usually is anyway) the biggest issue is that Home stereo speakers are designed to add "color" to a mix either bass of treble, or both depending on the makers view of things, but anyway the point is that monitors are design to give a flat response, i might add not a truley great sounding response, home stereo speakers can sound way better, but the monitors sound like what is in the recording, that way you know if it needs more bass or the piano is too low or whatever. This gives the average mixer a base point or starting point hence the name "reference" monitor. Now having said that you can mix from anything as long as you take several looks at it, meaning listen on several different kinds of systems, like a car , home and portable stereo. listen for what it sounds like overall. Still the best way is to use a solid reference monitor.

RE: How to make stereo (gamblerschoice)

Tue, 02 Jan 2007 16:30:14 GMT

Lots of stuff to read, probably have to wait till I get home. Thanks.
Hard to believe some one of your even temperment could get angry at any one, but we all have buttons that should not be pushed. 'course you probably communicated with me enough to know I just have this strange sense of humor, that post with ibanez just couldn't get past me without some stupid comment from me.
Thanks again for the reading material, catch up with you later
Albert

RE: How to make stereo (Beagle)

Tue, 02 Jan 2007 15:32:02 GMT

sorry, Al, I posted early, then went back and fixed it.

Which post did I tear someone up? I know i've done it before, but I thought I had been fairly calm lately. if you really wanted to see me yelling at someone for the stuff they post, you should have seen a couple of threads where this one person kept cussing in the forum. And he wouldn't back off. I got a little mad at him those times.

If you're talking about ibanezplayer, I'm not really mad at him. I asked him politely not to use that kind of descriptions. He didn't know before now that it bothered me, so now I've informed him and politely asked him to stop.

no biggie.

Oh, and 100W/channel - isn't wrong....just as long as they made it flat across all frequencies!

RE: How to make stereo (gamblerschoice)

Tue, 02 Jan 2007 14:42:56 GMT

Beagle
The link didn't post, but don't worry about it, I get the picture. So much to think about, sample rates, 32 bit floating stuff, 44,100 or 98,000,000, powered monitors or power supplies, sata and raid, I just can't keep up." />
The simple explanation is good enough for me here, but I'm still so old school....I mean 100w per channel. How can that be wrong?" />
Later
Albert
BTW
Must remember to not get on your bad side
Read your response on another thread...ouch

RE: How to make stereo (Beagle)

Tue, 02 Jan 2007 14:22:26 GMT

Hey, Al. No problem, no offense taken....

The quickest I can find an article talks only about the difference between HI FI SPEAKERS and STUDIO MONITORS, but the principle applies to the difference between HI FI amplifiers and Studio Amplifiers as well.

Can you tweak a HI FI amp to be used in the studio? Sure, but, with all due respect, I don't think you can do it just by using it in its flat state. I think you actually have to use an EQ on it and flatten it out more than it already is.

the problem is that the amps in the powered monitors and the studio amplifers are DESIGNED for a flat response. I could get very technical about this telling you how operational amplifiers and filters are used, but I don't think you need that much info. A HI FI amp is designed to make the listener's experience the "best" that it can be and are typically boosted in the bass and sometimes in the midrange.

Here's an article on the HIFI vs Studio monitors:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Jun02/articles/monitors.asp
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Jul02/articles/monitors2.asp

While the author of this article's conclusion is not completely conclusive, it still points to the Dynaudios as the best response for near fields as a studio monitor. The HI FI speakers that he used in the test did rather well against some of the studio monitors, but all that tells me is that you have to be careful which monitors you get. Just like anything else. Just because you buy a LARGE DIAMETER CONDENSOR MICROPHONE, doesn't mean you'll get the best sound out of it. A Neuman (although overly priced) is going to sound better than an M-audio NOVA. Every time.

And the article does give you a LOT of info about how they determine the responsiveness of the speakers.

Here's another article. Notice that the author says that good monitors shouldn't "artificially exaggerate frequencies". http://studio-central.com/studio_monitors.htm

Here's an excellent short article, what he says in a few short paragraphs brings up volumes of info. basically, it boils down to this part of the article:

Bottom line: If your mixes sound bottom-heavy in the real world, your monitors don't have enough bottom. If your mixes are dull at home or in the car, your monitors are too bright. The monitors are adding highs to the sound which are not added in the mixdown path.

If your mixes are lacking punch, you're mixing on overly-punchy monitors (like the ones in the walls - which are no longer "flat" because they're mounted in non-factory designed enclosures). If the vocals or middle instruments sound thin in the car, there's probably a "bump" in the midrange in your studio. If the panning seems different or you're just having a hard time "seeing" your exact sound field, there's probably some reflections off the board or other gear that's blurring your monitor imaging. But there's more

http://www.johnvestman.com/studio_monitor_madness.htm

His point about amplifiers is on the money, too.

Power amplifiers, speaker cable and monitor preamplifiers are significant in accurate monitor sound. "But my power amp is flat from 20 to 20K." You have to use your ears when judging a power amp. They're all "flat", but some are dull sounding, some are harsh sounding, some are mushy sounding, some collapse the image, etc.

But then he goes on to say that he prefers HIFI amplifiers to studio amplifers, but he doesn't go into the reasons why. He does say, however, that they need to be the VERY expensive HIFI amps and not ones you buy at Circuit City.

You will find a lot of different responses to this question of using flat response amplifiers vs. HIFI amplifiers and studio monitors vs HIFI speakers. The bottom line is you don't want anything to add or not give you enough of a certain frequency range. You want it flat across all human hearning frequency levels. if you can achieve that with HIFi, then go for it! If youcan't, then you have to compensate with EQ or buy better amp/speakers.

that's my 2cents.

RE: How to make stereo (gamblerschoice)

Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:52:55 GMT

Hey Beagle:
Any links to info on the difference between flat response powered monitors and a reciever running at flat settings (ie no bass or treble attenuation, just flat levels)? After all, the powered speakers are using some sort of amplifier, aren't they? Not being argumentive, really just asking.
Later
Albert

RE: How to make stereo (Beagle)

Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:00:01 GMT

YES, studio monitors come in two different types, powered and passive. Most home studios tend to use powered since the amps you need to get a good quality flat response from (as well as other parameters) typically will cost you more in the long run once you buy the amp and the passive speakers. plus, you have to deal with the room for them, power consumption, heat, and other considerations. for home studios, powered monitors are the most popular.

Personally, I like the M-audio better, but I believe they are probably both pretty good for entry level.

RE: How to make stereo (No How)

Tue, 02 Jan 2007 12:19:43 GMT

Beag,
So I can get monitors that are powered without a receiver? Great. I will check those out. The Edirol are also $100. Are they about the same in quality as the M-Audio?
Thanks for the links.

RE: How to make stereo (Beagle)

Tue, 02 Jan 2007 11:17:35 GMT

No How,
You can spend your money on whatever you want, of course, but I think you may have missed the point of my post.

The Sherwood Reciever, while is a good purchase for home theater, is not the best thing to use for a home studio. for home studio you want FLAT RESPONSE studio monitors. The receiver will not give you a flat response, it augments the signal (sort of like a built in equalizer) and the response you get is not a "reference" like you should be using for mixing.

for $100 you can get some low end powered speakers which are "studio monitors" and will have flat response (or near it) and will be a much better monitor system for your home studio. The first ones I listed there, the 3" m-audios are only $100. They're the lowest of the low end monitors, but they will still be better than buying a receiver to use as a monitor because of the way they're designed.

It's the same thing for your audio card. If you use a Soundblaster card, they're great for GAMING, but they're not designed for home studio recording. They'll work, but they won't work as WELL as something that was DESIGNED to do RECORDING WORK.

RE: How to make stereo (No How)

Tue, 02 Jan 2007 09:18:21 GMT

THank you , Beagle. I'm using some vestax monitors for speakers now and they seem okay. I will need to put $100 into a sherwood receiver as it's all i can pretend to afford.

RE: How to make stereo (Beagle)

Tue, 02 Jan 2007 08:43:40 GMT

If you're going to spend $100 or more, I'd look into studio monitors instead of spending near that on a HI-FI amp or computer speakers. That equipment boosts different frequencies in order to make the consumer hear "better" sounding computer games or "better"sounding CDs.

If you can't afford more than $30, then I'd go with Bob's suggestion. If you get close to $100, then I'd start looking at the low end monitors like these:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/MAudio-StudioPro-3-Professional-Desktop-Audio-Monitors?sku=603709
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Edirol-MA7A-Stereo-Micro-Monitors?sku=603677
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/MAudio-Studiophile-DX4-Powered-Monitors-Pair?sku=603705
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Fostex-PM0.4-Powered-Studio-Monitors?sku=600682

An alternative to buying monitors now (and some "pro" types would bash me for saying this) would be to get some decent headphones to use with your 0404, but you still would have to have a headphone amplifier (or mixer which has a built in headphone amp). Headphones are not the best thing to mix with (and thus the reason I would get flamed for saying that), but you use what you can!

If you want to go that route instead, as and we can give you some advice in that area.

RE: How to make stereo (No How)

Tue, 02 Jan 2007 08:02:02 GMT

I don't use it for gaming as I need the memory for this stuff. the kids have a game cube that keeps them happy (for now).
I guess I need to start shopping.

RE: How to make stereo (gamblerschoice)

Mon, 01 Jan 2007 22:51:18 GMT

I have been using a Sherwood stereo reviever, 200w, 100w per channel. Only paid $89.00 for it, and I've seen it for less since. Problem free, clean sound, plenty of inputs, set up for two speakers per channel so I have monitors in the mix booth and speakers in the studio.
Later
Albert

RE: How to make stereo (57Gregy)

Mon, 01 Jan 2007 22:48:19 GMT

I got a 100 Watt stereo reciever from BB for $99. Not the best, but it works.
Greg

RE: How to make stereo (RobertB)

Mon, 01 Jan 2007 21:32:01 GMT

Yeah, that would do it." />
For now I would be inclined to visit someplace like Wal-Mart or Best Buy. They should have several inexpensive units to chose from. Just make sure it has line inputs. You don't need high wattage. Most reciever/amps sound their best in the 40-60% volume range. In time you will probably want to get some good powered monitors, but they aren't cheap.
I knew that would come back and bite us, but we solved the problem at hand.

Edit:Sitting here brainstorming, and I had an idea. Do you use your computer for gaming at all?
The E-MU is not good with games, the software doesn't access the card properly. I'm looking at my gaming speakers, and a light went on.
Get a set of powered computer speakers, stereo, don't worry about 5.1 stuff. You can use these with a stereo x 2 mono adapter with the E-MU. This should run you $30-$50.
If you want to know what setting up for games entails we can cover that.

RE: How to make stereo (No How)

Mon, 01 Jan 2007 20:44:08 GMT

Olay, Robert. Now I really deserve a kick. My receiver is only putting out sound from one side so I can't hear the panning." />
I need to get a substitute. What do you recommend for peanuts? (that will do the job)

Thanks.

RE: How to make stereo (RobertB)

Mon, 01 Jan 2007 20:21:00 GMT

Give it some time. After a while, you'll be doing these little things without even thinking about it.
Wait 'til you start playing with fun stuff like EQ, compressors, reverb, and all the other details that really make your song come to life. The learning never ends.

RE: How to make stereo (No How)

Mon, 01 Jan 2007 20:10:52 GMT

Jamzor,
Thanks. i will check it out to see if it works.

Robert,
I was doing the opposite and making all the icons stereo" />, oops.
I will go back and make them all mono again and see what happens.

Gosh. Writing the tune is a piece of cake. Engineering it is a life long undertaking" />

RE: How to make stereo (RobertB)

Mon, 01 Jan 2007 17:44:53 GMT

Sorry Jamz,
That's not entirely accurate. It's not entirely inaccurate either. Depends on what you want.
There is a PatchMix screen shot in this thread:
Sonar or MC
Note the position of the Pan controls in the L & R Input strips.
Rick,
In the MC Track Pane, next to the Volume Control, is a button that looks kind of like this[>.<]. This is showing a Stereo track
Click on it, and it will turn to this [>.] This shows that the Track is now Mono. Even though the track was recorded from a Full Right input, it will now be centered, and should display as a single track, not split as a stereo track would be shown. With the Mono Icon [>.] showing, you can pan freely.

RE: How to make stereo (Jamz0r)

Mon, 01 Jan 2007 17:31:39 GMT

You need to turn the pan control to straight up in PatchMix before you record, if you are recording from one side.

I think you can bounce to a mono track within Cakewalk and see if that helps.

RE: How to make stereo (No How)

Mon, 01 Jan 2007 17:06:52 GMT

I am not getting it. Everything was recorded through the right channel on patch mix so all the sounds are on the right only." /> Is there a way to get them to the left without having to re-record the track?
It has to happen at patchmix first- is this correct?