Need controller help

RE: Need controller help (Nick P)

Sun, 18 Mar 2007 05:30:21 GMT

Okay, un-"F" the Edirol. Continued thanks, BillW. I'm going to save this thread in case I get an Edirol, it will augment the manual.

Here's the thing about B Rock. He's a monster synth/P5 expert. But...he's not always the most clear writer. What he has yet to realize (IMO of course) is that his head operates at one level, but the rest of us operate at a much more simple level when it comes to all of this stuff.

A great example for B Rock, and I hope he takes this with the highest respect, since potentially he could be one of the great authors of Cakewalk technical training, is Scott Garrigus. When you get a "Sonar x Power" book, you get a very easy-to-read, step-by-step, begin-at-the-beginning resource. In other words highly edited and organized. Now in B's defense 1) He's not getting paid for his work (which he should be IMO), 2) He's contributing very targeted tutorials, many of which are by necessity at an advanced level.

Even though most of B's tutorials are way beyond my comprehension, I'm still really grateful for them, since at some point I hope to be at that skill level some day. In the meantime I hope Cakewalk (or Thompson) will contract with B-Rock, hook him up with an editor, and get some of that super-skill out in print!

RE: Need controller help (wgcabp)

Sun, 18 Mar 2007 00:42:56 GMT

ORIGINAL: Michele
I have to tell you, some of the people on this forum are so technically skilled that I get tempted to scrub the whole home recording thing. I always thought of myself as a bit of a gearhead with guitars, but the whole midi thing has been and probably will always be a tough nut to crack. I assume I just don't have enough interest in it and not enough technical genes.

No one will live long enough to know half as much as B Rock knows about this stuff. So with all due respect to the other posters, when B tells you a technical solution...listen. It's the last word. Really. I know him very well and he would not tell you a solution if he really didn't think it was the right solution. And...if you think you know something about guitars, he can make you feel pretty small in that area as well. So really, I could really care less what any less experienced posters have to say. B's answer will always be the right answer.

I think I am going to pick up one the Casio Preiva pianos. I really like their action. As I was playing the keyboards at a music store I was stunned that the Casio was that good. I will then look into either a 49 key controller or the Finger Trigger. Am I correct in thinking that it can give me enough control with Sonar 6 and Dim Pro?

You appear to be a real keyboard player that really cares about action and feel. Since that is the case, get something that feels good to you that has a MIDI out. Plug it in, play, be happy. This is your "piano"...you're main input controller for musical things. Right?

Then for other controllers, you want something with knobs and widgets and doodads, right? So find a smaller controller. It doesn't have to be a four octave controller, because you already have your "main" controller, right? You mainly want the knobs and widgets and doodads. So, get one that has lots of knobs and widgets and doodads and get used to using MIDI learn. If you want drum pads as well, then get one with drum pads and knobs and widgets and doodads and get used to using MIDI learn.

So now you have an 88-key controller that has great "feel", then a smaller controller mainly for controlling MIDI parameters and a drum pad controller, I can't see how you could possibly not have enough control at your fingertips to do anything you could want to do with Sonar and any softsynth that you run across. This is the philosophy that B was trying to get across. Use several smaller instruments and dedicate them to doing what they do well.

If you think it will work out of the box with ACT as if by magic, then you are more than welcome to think that if you like. A more practical approach would be to realize that each of the controllers will work with ACT if you spend enough time with them and go through the hassles of setting them up, which is being chronicled very well by BillW.

We've been talking about this stuff for years. A search will reveal many controller threads that all of us old-timers have hashed out many, many times.

Will

RE: Need controller help (BillW)

Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:29:48 GMT

ORIGINAL: Nick P
BillW - thanks for the real comprehensive review. It's the Edirol that aint ready for primetime, I assure you that. In fact, "F" the Edirol.

I had a major breakthrough this morning with the PCR. The first controller map (0 - DYNAMIC MAPPING 0) seems to be a much better match for Sonar. I have been working in the studio all morning and suddenly realized that the rewind feature (L1) was still working. Then I realized I had left it on controller map 0. Not only do the transport buttons keep working there, but I was able to assign "save" to pad A1 and "undo" to pad B1...and they work perfectly. I feel a little silly for not having discovered this before (especially since I've been sharing everything in this thread), but better late than never I guess.

I'm quickly revising my opinion of the PCR-800. I haven't had any more lockups since the day it arrived. I have been bouncing back and forth between the PCR and the S90ES (as a Mackie control surface) and things have been working seemlessly.

I wouldn't conclude that the Edirol isn't ready for prime time yet...other than the quirky keyboard (which I'm getting used to) and the pads (which aren't the best for drums), it is starting to look like a winner!!

RE: Need controller help (Viamichael)

Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:23:13 GMT

ORIGINAL: Nick P
Michele - 2 keyboard controllers will suffice, 1 for piano-type parts (88 key weighted) and one for synth-type parts and controlling (49 or 61 notes). With all respect to Mr. Brockway, he is from a solar system where humans have 72 hour days. The rest of us would be overwhelmed with the multi-tasking he so effortlessly engages in. Dispense with the 4 25-note controllers for now. In fact, don't even worry about the 88 right now. Just get your system working with one controller. That's a big enough task.

I have to tell you, some of the people on this forum are so technically skilled that I get tempted to scrub the whole home recording thing. I always thought of myself as a bit of a gearhead with guitars, but the whole midi thing has been and probably will always be a tough nut to crack. I assume I just don't have enough interest in it and not enough technical genes.

I think I am going to pick up one the Casio Preiva pianos. I really like their action. As I was playing the keyboards at a music store I was stunned that the Casio was that good. I will then look into either a 49 key controller or the Finger Trigger. Am I correct in thinking that it can give me enough control with Sonar 6 and Dim Pro?
M.

RE: Need controller help (Nick P)

Fri, 16 Mar 2007 22:45:43 GMT

BillW - thanks for the real comprehensive review. It's the Edirol that aint ready for primetime, I assure you that. In fact, "F" the Edirol.

Michele - 2 keyboard controllers will suffice, 1 for piano-type parts (88 key weighted) and one for synth-type parts and controlling (49 or 61 notes). With all respect to Mr. Brockway, he is from a solar system where humans have 72 hour days. The rest of us would be overwhelmed with the multi-tasking he so effortlessly engages in. Dispense with the 4 25-note controllers for now. In fact, don't even worry about the 88 right now. Just get your system working with one controller. That's a big enough task.

RE: Need controller help (b rock)

Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:24:38 GMT

Sonar's MMC is somewhat documented...some of these features should be fixable.

That's a pretty good resource. The help file in Sonar (at least in versions earlier than Sonar6) also had some good info.
Here's another link to add to the collection.

FWIW: I ended up remapping the main MMC-type controls to NRPNs to maintain compatibility across every host app. As one example, Project5 doesn't currently support MMC or sysex of any kind. Hopefully, that's about to change with ACT and control surface support. And yet, some hardware destinations will only react to MMC transport commands.

The solution was to create parallel templates, and in some cases, a parallel set of programmable switches dedicated to MMC. I set the states appropriately, changed the transmitted message to Sysex, and 'hand-coded' the correct data values into them from the MMC standard. It's not automatic, but a small enough task, and the problem was solved from that point onward.

RE: Need controller help (BillW)

Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:12:26 GMT

I don't know whether this will help or not. Using MMC, it shouldn't matter, but I've run into this when remapping MMC controls to CCs/NRPNs. Do the buttons themselves have a programmable state? That is, can they be set to something like Normal, Momentary, Toggle, Step ...?

Good point about the MMC stuff...the buttons do have state (momentary, toggle, etc). The PCR is quite programmable!! I plan to fully explore that stuff to see whether the messages and states are correct. I can always copy the Sonar template into another slot and make the necessary fixes (and then share it with everybody).

Your observation about this requiring some tweaking is accurate. It takes persistence, patience and a little know-how to get what you want. There's a lot of power under the covers in the PCR.

Sonar's MMC is somewhat documented...some of these features should be fixable.

http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/Docs/MMCandSYSX.asp

RE: Need controller help (BillW)

Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:56:01 GMT

I found the answer to my own question about whether my MIDI assignments (for the pads) would persist...no, not unless I save them with a control map. I will say one more thing about the pads...their velocity curves are programmable. I was using the default (normal) curve, but will try some other settings and report back.

The PCR can hold 16 controller maps, but you can also bulk dump/load them to your sequencer software (which means you can have an unlimited number if you want to transfer them back and forth from your software).

The PCR's 16 "factory" controller maps are as follows (their names, not mine):

0 - DYNAMIC MAPPING 0
1 - SONAER LEAASONAR 5 (MCR-8 Mode 3)
2 - GarageBand
3 - Logic 7
4 - Logic 7
5 - Logic 7
6 - Logic 7
8 - Logic 7
9 - Logic 7
10 - Logic 7
11 - B4 II
12 - B4 II
13 - B4 II
14 - GM
15 - motion dive .tokyo

Kudos for that lovely translation for mapping #1. I'm not sure why they felt the burning need to provide the Logic 7 mapping seven times or B4 II three times. " />

I will give the PCR this: it is one highly-programmable beast. You can assign all kinds of complex MIDI messages to its controls. I will spend some time with the template creation software provided and write up something on that.

The manual states in a number of places that additional templates can be downloaded from the Roland site...nothing there as of yesterday.

I also own P5 but I don't have it loaded anywhere presently. If I get ambitious this weekend, I might see what the PCR can do within P5. There's no mapping for it, but I suspect the Sonar mapping will do.

RE: Need controller help (b rock)

Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:40:37 GMT

Great step-by-step review, Bill. Not only do I feel like we're right there with you figuring it all out, but you also illustrate what to expect from ACT. It's not magic; rather, it's trying to embrace a complicated setup (along with a control surface level) with a lot of variables involved. If always felt like some level of tweaking will be necessary in nearly anyone's setup.

the rewind, play, stop and record buttons (L1-L4) on the PCR partially work. The rewind button ceases to function almost immediately.

I don't know whether this will help or not. Using MMC, it shouldn't matter, but I've run into this when remapping MMC controls to CCs/NRPNs. Do the buttons themselves have a programmable state? That is, can they be set to something like Normal, Momentary, Toggle, Step ...?

In working with (earlier) control surfaces and remapping, I found that adjusting these states helped to get expected behavior. For example, Play/Stop would be a two-state setting, while Rewind would be a 'one-shot'. It may be setup a certain way in the controller template, or the control surface overlay. Something to explore, anyway.

RE: Need controller help (BillW)

Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:22:22 GMT

ORIGINAL: Michele

First off, how many keyboards would you use? Maybe an 88 key hammer action piano feel and then a smaller controller keyboard? If so, how many keys do you think are necessary on controller: 25, 49, 61? Then for me, I think something like the padKontrol to input drums.

This is really a loaded question. As b rock says, it could be a lot of them...it's a complicated answer. If you only ever had a 49 key controller and you were happy making music with that, then so be it. If you never run out of keys (or do so rarely and are comfortable with the octave switching buttons) then you'll probably never need anything else. For years, I survived on nothing but 61-note synths. Once I bought an 88-note weighted board and started working on my (extremely rusty) piano technique again, the 61-note synths seemed far less expressive and I hardly ever touched them anymore (preferring to control their sounds from the weighted keyboards via MIDI). I think it's all what you get used to or are trained on. I also own a Korg CX3 (Hammond B3 clone), which has a feel all its own. I can *only* do organ parts on that keyboard. The keys are made to be smeared and played fast. Different choices for different applications.

I have no idea why this post is blue. " />

RE: Need controller help (BillW)

Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:09:57 GMT

Well, I know there has been a lot of criticism leveled at ACT, but it I think *it* works.

If you're reading this for the first time, please make sure you see all of my subsequent posts...this "review" (and I use that word lightly) is a work in progress! " />

The PCR-800 and Sonar communicate on two levels. There's the control surface part, which affords the capability of mapping physical controls (knobs, sliders, buttons, switches, pads) with Sonar functionality (transport, mixing, project navigation, etc). Then there's ACT part, which allows you to map MIDI messages to (supposedly) any "virtual" control on a synth or effect. All ACT does is eliminate the need for the "MIDI learn" feature exhibited in most old school plugins by capturing the MIDI streams sent when you move something on the plugin in conjunction with your choice of corresponding physical controller. It also implements the use of focus (i.e., which plugin is selected) as the basis for the target of a set of mapping parameters (effectively "trapping" those message between the plugin and your controller so that nothing else is affected in the inevitable case that CC messages overlap between plugins, hardware synths, etc). ACT remembers those mappings you make on the fly for each plugin for use in subsequent projects.

From a control surface standpoint, there are some things that the PCR doesn't appear to be able to do (at least yet). As I pointed out earlier, the rewind, play, stop and record buttons (L1-L4) on the PCR partially work. The rewind button ceases to function almost immediately. The others work for a while and then behave erratically. The thing the PCR purports to do is map any of its physical controls to Sonar functions. I haven't done an exhaustive test of all of the menu items in the PCR's mapping drop-down box (and it's EXTENSIVE), but one of the most important ones (save) didn't work. I was able to successfully map undo (and that only half worked...I had to intervene with the mouse every time). I know these functions are mappable to a control surface because my Yamaha S90ES can emulate the Mackie and I can almost totally run Sonar from the front panel of the S90ES.

As for ACT not being ready for primetime, I don't blame Cakewalk as much as I blame poorly implemented VSTs and user error. For ACT to truly work, a VST plugin must correctly expose all of its controllable features through the VST API (i.e., the cutoff knob on a synth). VST plugins can be queried for what they expose in order for those features to be exploited by the host (which is how you can see the textual description in the PCR's control panel). The VST plugin must also have the capability of sending MIDI CC messages when its controls are manipulated (just as on a real synth)...it should also be able to receive those CC messages so its functions can be controlled externally. If certain controls are negected or improperly defined (from an host point of view) then they can't be mapped with any degree of accuracy.

Whew...rather long winded, but hopefully helpful.

RE: Need controller help (Viamichael)

Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:04:16 GMT

BillW
Yikes! If this is supposed to be easy, I need to go back to my old career in brain surgery. It seems like ACT is not ready for primetime.

I do not have BillW's technical ability. I was hoping that the pads would transmit midi automatically. It is difficult enough for me to write the songs and deal with all the recording duties. This just might be too much for me.

Keep the review coming. I am emjoying it.

b rock
I am also primarily a guitarist, but after many years of music school I learned to appreciate a piano action. For some reason is feel very intuitive when I use both hands. If I am just laying down a bass or lead line, any keyboard action is fine.

Maybe a 49 key controller would work for me, and I must go to the music store and see if I can touch a Trigger Finger. Sounds like you enjoy it.

RE: Need controller help (BillW)

Thu, 15 Mar 2007 20:00:04 GMT

OK, I got the pads working. By default, they do not transmit MIDI notes. The PCR's control panel sees them as something mappable to one of Sonar's controls, so the answer doesn't lie there. They can, however, can be programmed from the PCR's front panel to transmit note numbers. I mapped the first 4 pads to the kick, snare, hat and ride in Session Drummer 2. Each pad must be mapped individually and it's a 12-step process (alternatively this can be done with the supplied editing software...which is probably a lot faster/easier). I had already unassigned those four pads from Sonar functions. I didn't actually test this, but I'd bet that if I hadn't unassigned them, they'd have sent MIDI notes and control messages to Sonar (with some potentially interesting results " />).

Anyway, I'm not sure how long those assignments persist. Maybe they can be saved as part of a template? I don't know...haven't gotten that far yet. What I do know is that the pads *suck* for drums. They have to be hit dead on and there isn't a lot of variety in the velocities (the resulting values are all high). The pads aren't that expressive and don't feel right for drumming (at least for me).

I read something in another forum today about Roland's promise regarding integration with Sonar. The bottom line was that it isn't implemented yet and there is no date for it to be completed. I don't know if there's any truth to this, but I haven't seen Sonar do anything with the PCR that puts it in the right mode (template 1). I still have to do it manually.

RE: Need controller help (b rock)

Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:00:36 GMT

Interesting questions that you've brought up, Michele. I'll give you a single point of view, but keep in mind that my view is hardly the norm, and this setup didn't happen overnight. I built it up until I covered everything that I needed; both for live performance and a studio-type setting geared toward creative versatility.

First off, how many keyboards would you use?

" /> Um, a lot. Each item has its unique purpose. For example, the Alesis Ion has a nice touch, beautiful sound output for live use, and makes a great controller for DAW work. But it has no aftertouch at the keyboard. I'll feed a Novation to it for that. Other classic hardware synths have no velocity keyboard response, but produce great sound. It's a matter of interconnecting to get the end results desired.

Maybe an 88 key hammer action piano feel and then a smaller controller keyboard?

Personally, I prefer semi-weighted action, but I'm not a formally-trained pianist. More of a guitarist/synthesist. I can see why those from a different background prefer fully-weighted hammer.

If so, how many keys do you think are necessary on controller: 25, 49, 61?

Again, 88 is essential to pianists. Myself, I think that a four- or five-octave keyboard is almost the bare minimum for live work. At home, I actually prefer the more versatile options of using four 25-key controllers. I treat the octave switches as the 26th and 27th keys in performance.

Then for me, I think something like the padKontrol to input drums.

I've got a Trigger Finger right between the 'main' 2-octave and the other three. It's great for both drums, and as an alternate controller. The software implementation is deep, and configurable. I've come to prefer that over a keyboard input or MIDI guitar for playing guitar emulations.

You mentioned the M-Audio Axiom above. I've had some time on one. I found the keyboard action to be very nice (semi-weighted with aftertouch). The pads didn't seem all that different from the Trigger Finger's. Location of those was problematic for me (on the right). In fact, ergonomics was the only reason that I didn't buy it. The 49 didn't completely cover what I intended to use it for.

RE: Need controller help (Viamichael)

Thu, 15 Mar 2007 11:28:32 GMT

BillW
OK, I've found a velocity setting I'm happy with for most applications. The choices are 1-4 and each number has a (L)ight, (M)edium and (H)ard associated with it (i.e., 1L, 1M, 1H, 2L, 2M, 2H, etc). 1H is working best for me so far. The shallow keys are going to take some getting used to.

While BillW continues his review for us I thought I would ask a few questions. First off, how many keyboards would you use? Maybe an 88 key hammer action piano feel and then a smaller controller keyboard? If so, how many keys do you think are necessary on controller: 25, 49, 61? Then for me, I think something like the padKontrol to input drums.

I would appreciate any thoughts you all might have. I am certainly not happy with my Alesis Q6 as my do everything keyboard.
M.

RE: Need controller help (BillW)

Thu, 15 Mar 2007 08:36:32 GMT

ORIGINAL: Michele

Have you tried the pads for triggering drums? Are they responsive and how is the velocity?
M.

I haven't found a way to map them to anything yet...that's on the list for tonight.

RE: Need controller help (Nick P)

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:31:31 GMT

+1 to that and general thanks for the comprehensive information. Like all keyboard actions it's a totally personal thing, so each will have to judge for him or herself if the keyboard action is acceptable. Otherwise it looks like a great little controller.

RE: Need controller help (Viamichael)

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:16:02 GMT

Have you tried the pads for triggering drums? Are they responsive and how is the velocity?
M.

RE: Need controller help (BillW)

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:03:02 GMT

OK, I've found a velocity setting I'm happy with for most applications. The choices are 1-4 and each number has a (L)ight, (M)edium and (H)ard associated with it (i.e., 1L, 1M, 1H, 2L, 2M, 2H, etc). 1H is working best for me so far. The shallow keys are going to take some getting used to.

I've gotten a little deeper into setting up the the PCR-800's controls. I had pretty good success remapping the controls for most soft synths. I even got the filter controls mapped for Synth1 (which I somehow thought wouldn't work). I figured out the pads too. The control surface editor window has a 2nd tab that gives you access to every physical controller (knobs, buttons, sliders, pads, etc) in each of the banks. From this window you can remap at will. The pads are (by default) locked out of ACT mode. To correct this, I had to select each pad from a dropdown list and uncheck the lockout option...pain in the a$$.

I am used to using my S90ES as a control surface as it gives me the ability to rewind, play, stop, record, undo, redo and save remotely (the keyboard is sitting a few feet from my PC). The PCR-800 has 4 buttons (L1-L4) that are supposed to rewind, stop, play and record. The rewind button frequently doesn't work but the others are fine (it starts out working and then quits randomly). I was initially disappointed that some of Sonar's other menu functions (like undo and save) weren't available on the PCR's front panel. That disappointment turned to excitement when I found that I could map any of Sonar's menu commands to any physical control on the PCR-800. I mapped File|Save to shift-L1 (C1+L1) and Edit|Undo to shift-L2 (C1+L2). To my surprise, the C1+L1 and C1+L2 keystrokes did nothing. If I clicked the C1 (shift) button on the PCR's software control panel, however, the shift-L2 combination worked (undo), but not the shift-L1 (save). I couldn't get File|Save to work on any physical control.

Any specific questions?

More to come...

RE: Need controller help (BillW)

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:29:06 GMT

I will say this about the action -- it's quick! I can fly on these keys. It will probably be very good for solos where expressiveness (from a velocity standpoint) isn't a big factor. I don't recall any clack, but there is probably the potential for some pain in the fingers (given the shallow depth and my preference for hammer action boards). The action just doesn't feel normal...perhaps an improvement over the older Edirol keyboards, but certainly not normal (when compared to the rest of my current arsenal, which includes a Fantom X6, S90ES, Korg CX3, CME UF7 and Keystation 61ES).

As for Cake's press release, the enable/disable ACT button is there on the PCR-800 and that works. There is also a shift button that gives access to an alternate set of fuctions for some of the controls. I'm not sure how Sonar communicates with the PCR-800 to "ensure" it's in the correct mode. I have been setting the PCR's controller mode manually (it's template 1). The knobs and sliders seem to be mapping to something for most soft synths and effects. The PCR's control panel shows some text that describes how the knob/slider/pad is mapped to the plugin or Sonar function, indicating that the PCR software does integrate at some level with both the VST and control surface interface/API. The text updates as soon as you shift focus from one plug to another (or to Sonar).

The knobs/sliders have 4 banks in the PCR's control panel. You can change the bank number via dropdown box in that panel, but I haven't figured out how to do it from the keyboard yet....must figure that out soon.

The pads seem to like to control some weird things in Sonar (like A1/A2 map to previous track/next track). They seem to maintain that connection with Sonar as opposed to the plugins. No matter what soft synth I loaded, the pads wouldn't map to them. I'm sure this has more to do with my lack of experience with the PCR than anything else, as the NAMM video clearly shows that P5 drum machine being played with the pads.

Stay tuned....

RE: Need controller help (Nick P)

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:18:26 GMT

LOL - I want you to want to like it so I can like it as much as I did before you didn't like it so much " /> Seriously, looking forward to your further keyboard action and controller integration tests. As I recall my previous Edirol (PCR-M80) had this nasty key clack as the key hit bottom, which was not only noisy, but actually hurt your fingers. I could live with a shallow key dip, this being a synth action and all, but it would have to be smooth, quiet, and not hurt your fingers when it hit bottom. Please advise when you get a chance, thanks!

Here is Roland's press release section about the new keyboard action: "The new ultra-sensitive keyboards provide a wider dynamic range under the player's fingertips, while new aftertouch sensors allow the keyboardist to play more expressively. Smooth key action, keys shaped for comfortable glissando playing, silent operation, and stable key mounting all contribute to the enhanced playability of these keyboards."

Here is Cakewalk's press release section on the Edirols and their integration with ACT: "The new Edirol PCR-300, PCR-500, and PCR-800 MIDI keyboard controllers have been optimized to work seamlessly with SONAR. At launch, SONAR communicates with these new Edirol controllers to ensure that the PCR is in the correct mode to work with SONAR. In addition, the new PCR series have dedicated â€œDynamic Mappingâ€ buttons, which enable/disable ACT in SONAR. When enabled, SONAR enables ACT and launches the Edirol PCR-300 property page. When disabled, SONAR disables ACT and closes the Edirol PCR-300 property page."

Please advise if you are finding any of this to be manifested in the actual product you have.

RE: Need controller help (BillW)

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:02:47 GMT

As far as the action, the weird thing is how shallow it is. Not a lot of room from key up to key down. I'm going to have to audition every one of the velocity curves to find something I like. I'm planning to test velocities with Rhodes and bass patches as they seem to run the gamut as far as expressiveness. I usually play piano parts on my Yamaha S90ES so that's not an issue. I just need something for the "other" stuff.

I spent some more time with the PCR this morning before heading into the office. The ACT features seem to work (now that I've checked the damn box!). I tried it out with a couple of soft synths and effects. I don't necessarily like the default mappings that the PCR and Sonar agree on when you instantiate a plugin, but in many cases you can change that on a per plugin basis (and in some cases you can't). I've had no luck assigning the pads to anything yet.

That's all for now. I should have some more time tonight and will update as I discover things. I really *want* to like this controller. If I can find a decent velocity setting I might keep it.

Bill

RE: Need controller help (Viamichael)

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 05:40:08 GMT

Bill,
Thanks for the initial report. Bummer, I was too was hoping for decent action. It's hard to use a tool that isn't a joy to use. I know in the guitar world that if the neck feels good, you are halfway there. Then again, my friend is a concert organist (not too many of them around) and when he plays on my Alesis Q6, it doesn't seem to bother him.
M.

RE: Need controller help (three_eyed_otter)

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:44:50 GMT

I (and most likely others) really appreciate it!

I know I do. Otherwise I'm likely to read some darn review which will leave out some full truths or tell some half truths and my mind will get to thinkin' that I was right and it's time to purchase the new edirol ctrller." />

have a good one
3Eo

RE: Need controller help (Nick P)

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 01:18:49 GMT

Bill - Thanks loads. I was wondering about the action. It looks like from your picture that you know a thing or two about keyboard actions. I hated the action on the earlier Edirol 61 note and returned it. I was hoping this one would be better. I will still have to check it out myself, but I'm not nearly as "hot" on this keyboard as I was before I read your initial impressions. Please keep posting as you get further in to it. I (and most likely others) really appreciate it!

RE: Need controller help (BillW)

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 00:08:37 GMT

Hey guys, sorry to keep you hanging. It *finally* came today (3/13)...took 8 days from California to Virginia. Anyway, I got it hooked up but haven't done much with it yet (only had about 30 minutes).

Initial impressions:
- the manual isn't that great
- the Sonar support isn't very obvious or intuitive (nor is it documented). the manual mutilates the template names (including Sonar).
- the action isn't as good as I was hoping (not even in the same league as my Fantom X6)
- there are a lot of velocity curves but you can't audition them while you're making the settings (bummer). I haven't found one setting I've liked yet.
- i accidently hit a button that caused the value dial to set a fixed velocity...this caused me a few minutes of head scratching.
- i have some tough luck with usb devices and i suspect the pcr-800 isn't going to be 100% stable either. i have my first real lock-up on a fresh system (asus p5b, intel dual core duo 6600, 2gb ram) after installing the pcr-800 drivers.
- the pcr-800 can stop, play, rewind, record and control panning and mixing in sonar. that seems to work consistently.

Anyway, that's all for now. I couldn't get ACT to work at all, but that's because I had never used it before and didn't know about the ACT enable box on the control surface screen. I plan to put ACT through its paces and try to find a velocity setting I like. I'll post here again as soon as I can spend some more time with it.

Bill

RE: Need controller help (three_eyed_otter)

Tue, 06 Mar 2007 21:17:23 GMT

Bill W - Please post a full report. Start a new thread. We will love to hear about it.

Yep!

have a good one
3Eo

RE: Need controller help (Nick P)

Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:18:03 GMT

Bill W - Please post a full report. Start a new thread. We will love to hear about it.

RE: Need controller help (BillW)

Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:16:50 GMT

The new Edirol PCR series has just hit the streets. I ordered the last one zzounds had yesterday...should have it by this Wednesday. I'm not sure how this dynamic mapping thing works myself, but I'm about to find out. I'll report back here when I get it.

RE: Need controller help (Viamichael)

Mon, 05 Mar 2007 10:57:41 GMT

Check the Roland PCR-800, I believe it is an Edirol PCR-800.