murphmusik
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snare & kick clipping
Using Sonar 8 Producer...
What can I do about snare and kick drum clipping??
I noticed a little while recording the drums, but thought I could fix the here & there clipping.
I tried compression.....to no avail...or maybe I'm just using it wrong....and also messed around with lowering volumes but pretty much lose the drums in the mix when doing that...
any suggestions out there? (aside from re-recording the drums...thank you....)
thanks all!!!!
Erin Murphy-Dunn http://www.stefaniejasmine.com Sonar 7 PE Focusrite Saffire 14, Behringer XR18 Reason 4 Drumcore 3 Waves GTR3 Creation Station Tower Intel i5 Quadcore 4 GB RAM
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/23 20:38:48
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How many clipping points? Is it in the recording?
I hand edit out clips in Audition, Wavelab, or Sound Forge with their respective drawing tools.
good luck,
mike
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mattplaysguitar
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/23 21:23:48
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If you have clipped it during recording then you're going to have to re-record drums. Full stop.
Sometimes if you're VERY lucky and there is only a TEENY bit of clipping you can smooth it out with a wave editor as mike suggests, but mostly this ain't gonna work. Re-recording is your only option otherwise.
Sorry to disappoint!
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John
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/23 21:27:33
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If you have clipped it during recording then you're going to have to re-record drums. Full stop. Yes Yes Yes. Anything else is going to suck!
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/23 21:47:12
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Just to explain, if the clips are say for example 12-20 snare hits in a 2:30 song you are going to find out they are only 10-20 samples long and if you do hand draw them out NO ONE will ever know.
I encounter this occasionally because I frequently do live work and s*%t happens.
I just deal with it when it does.
best regards,
mike
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Jonbouy
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/23 22:34:24
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Have you tried the Transient Shaper yet? It won't mend the transients if they got broke while tracking (although it may improve them) but you'll be able to bring them back into the range of everything else. Following on from an earlier discussion on the TS its one of the tasks it is designed to do... 
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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LixiSoft
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/23 22:47:38
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If it's not too many, slice out the clipped hits and replace them with an unclipped hit. Simple way to save a track with a few clipped points.
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mattplaysguitar
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/23 23:24:48
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ORIGINAL: LixiSoft
If it's not too many, slice out the clipped hits and replace them with an unclipped hit. Simple way to save a track with a few clipped points.
Good idea, just make sure the replacement hits that you use are not directly before or after the clipped one or it will sound machine gun like and fake.
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/24 06:24:46
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A transient is the the front edge of a rising (or falling) wave. It's the "delta".
The peak is not the transient.
As some know, I'm no "transient shaper" expert :-)
But Clipping occurs at the "peak" not the "transient".
I just had to point that because I am a transient obsessive... even if I don't no what a "transient shaper" is for :-)
I can't understand why someone would replace a drum hit rather than just manually redraw it... In my opinion that's the best way to preserve the character of the performance. If you simply draw the peak below the over you maintain most of the attack and sustain from the original content (as well as the bleed). No one can hear a twenty sample repair on a drum track.
All my suggestion are null and void if we are speaking of hundreds of overs etc., (or if there is an easier option to just do a retake) but if the performance was something special or unique, and it's just a handful of overs, I think the method I recommend is the first option I would exercise.
best regards,
mike
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Bob Damiano [Cakewalk]
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/24 06:41:15
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If it's not too many, slice out the clipped hits and replace them with an unclipped hit. Simple way to save a track with a few clipped points. That was going to be my suggestion. Only I was going to leave out the "If it's not too many" part :) Record 24Bit, turn down your preamps. Ya got plenty of resolution. Remember the drummer is ALWAYS 6-12dB hotter when he's really playing the tune than he was when you were telling him "ok now hit the snare as hard as you're going to". :)
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/24 06:47:59
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"Remember the drummer is ALWAYS 6-12dB hotter when he's really playing the tune than he was when you were telling him "ok now hit the snare as hard as you're going to". :)"
Ain't it the truth.
Now a days when someone want's to do a sound check I reply "the mic is working". You don't really know what the levels are going to be until the song starts. Everything prior to that is just for making the artist comfortable.
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mattplaysguitar
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/24 07:04:51
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ORIGINAL: mike_mccue
I can't understand why someone would replace a drum hit rather than just manually redraw it... In my opinion that's the best way to preserve the character of the performance. If you simply draw the peak below the over you maintain most of the attack and sustain from the original content (as well as the bleed). No one can hear a twenty sample repair on a drum track.
It depends on how bad the clip is. If the clip is less than 10 samples long you can 'usually' fix it by redrawing. Any more and it may LOOK as though it isn't clipped, but it still sounds like it. It really depends on how bad it is. A really bad clip has no hope. I had a vocal take once that had a peak that only clipped about 4 samples long, although it lasted for about 50 peaks long. Each individual piece could be easily re-drawn to a natural looking curve, but altogether it just sounded highly compressed. The actual clipping sound itself was cleaner, and it was much smoother, but it still didn't sound as good as it would have we a retake. Pretty much everyone these days has the ability to record in 24 bit so if you know what you are doing you should really be able to always avoid clipping during recording - as Bob says. Also I might add, I like your post count Bob - 666 
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Bob Damiano [Cakewalk]
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/24 07:09:52
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Also I might add, I like your post count Bob - 666 Ha! I'll never post again! Oh crap...
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/24 07:25:17
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"I had a vocal take once that had a peak that only clipped about 4 samples long, although it lasted for about 50 peaks long. Each individual piece could be easily re-drawn to a natural looking curve, but altogether it just sounded highly compressed. The actual clipping sound itself was cleaner, and it was much smoother, but it still didn't sound as good as it would have we a retake."
Oh I absolutely agree, anything with rich harmonic content is going to resist being repaired this way.
Been there, done that, there's always something disconcerting left behind... a phase wiggle or something.
FWIW, I've been stung with 24bit and drummers who have great soft technique but occasionally drop a rifle crack into the mix... it makes for great live performance... but's it's difficult to squeeze it all into 24 bits if you don't know it's going to happen... and when it's the drummer's intent to surprise the audience good luck anticipating it's arrival.
When I go "over" in this circumstance it doesn't make me feel guilty or inept... it just is, and it happens.
best regards,
mike
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papa2004
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/24 08:22:55
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ORIGINAL: mattplaysguitar
...Also I might add, I like your post count Bob - 666 That's a scary thought...
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murphmusik
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/24 11:32:47
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well...I'm going to see if I can salvage the tracks with some of your suggestions....thanks so much.....
Erin Murphy-Dunn http://www.stefaniejasmine.com Sonar 7 PE Focusrite Saffire 14, Behringer XR18 Reason 4 Drumcore 3 Waves GTR3 Creation Station Tower Intel i5 Quadcore 4 GB RAM
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GMGM
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/24 11:51:03
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Now, if only Sonar had a pencil tool built in to re-draw the wave form... 
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Jonbouy
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/24 12:13:43
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Remember the drummer is ALWAYS 6-12dB hotter when he's really playing the tune than he was when you were telling him "ok now hit the snare as hard as you're going to". :) I promise you that I would only ever do that in a live scenario not in the studio.... And only because the engineer ALWAYS says there's plenty of kit coming forward when its barely audible and he's the fibber....honest......really. And..... transient is the the front edge of a rising (or falling) wave. It's the "delta". You are quite right Mike but tell me where does the peak end up when you've reduced the front edge, or Delta? Alas I'm not familiar with the S8 TS but many of them can adjust the characteristics of the peaks and it may be worth a shot before resorting to manual labour.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2008/10/24 12:27:28
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StudioCat57
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/24 13:25:00
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Izotope RX will take care of it for you...
Around 3 to 4bills for the package, or over a thousand for the full on version...
have fun!!!
P-4 3.0ghz- 3 gigs ram Sonar 6.021 Producer DM-3200 Motu 2408mk3 Lots of VST's
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John
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/24 13:45:20
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Funny no has said to replace the whole darn thing with Audiosnap and MIDI. If the drums recorded are worth the trouble then do the things suggested. If you can get by with your own then replace them.
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StudioCat57
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/24 14:23:51
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John,
100% correct!!! I only recently learned of this and didn't think of it!!!
Have you tried it? I might this weekend on some stuff I have recently recorded!!! Thanks for reminding me...
I only brought up Izotope rx because I have it and it works.....
Take care!!
P-4 3.0ghz- 3 gigs ram Sonar 6.021 Producer DM-3200 Motu 2408mk3 Lots of VST's
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John
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/24 14:48:45
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RX is the big boy on the block as far as I am concerned. I don't have it but it sure would be nice to have. I haven't use audiosnap at all. LOL After I wrote that I wonder how hard it would be to reuse the drum sounds already recorded. Cut them up and make the kit from that. It seems doable and has some advantages. Fire the drummer being one. Just kidding.
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GMGM
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/24 14:55:43
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John - That's exactly what I do when I need to fix a problem track. If it's just one hit, I'll try to edit it, or just copy/paste. But if the whole track is riddled with glitches & clips then sound replacement is the way to go. Once you do your first slice & dice script, it's pretty easy. Personally, I prefer the sound of real drums going through real air into real mics. But somtimes you don't have the luxury (the drummer went home, or the recording was done elsewhere for example). I keep posting Cake audiosnap/MIDI article when I see this topic come up (see DRUM REPLACEMENT). Another great resource on the forum is Mike McCue's Harmonic Cycle website. He's posted the link here before, and it's a lifesaver. This technique has allowed me to go back and work on ancient recordings from my horribly recorded teenage years.
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John
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/24 15:03:02
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I am flabbergasted by what you guys do on a routine basis. Neat! I mentioned this because Brandon did a really nice video on this when audiosnpa first came out. I thought wow what a neat tool for situations like this one. I agree that the recorded material should be used when ever possible and the ideas for fixing it are all good but I like the notion of having complete control over the whole thing. Audiosnap seems to give one that.
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wmb
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/24 15:33:17
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You also probably don't have enough headroom in your mix if you lose the drums when you turn them down. Just turn all of it down at the track or bus output and get back to work. I have to crank my monitors waaaaayy beyond what I would call normal listening volume to get my mix loud in the room while I'm working (I don't do this often). My drums peak generally at -10 while I'm mixing. I usually bus all the instruments into logical groups so I have control over big chunks of the mix if I need it. I will make up gain at the Master bus compressor at the end.
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ed97643
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/24 17:19:37
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Now, if only Sonar had a pencil tool built in to re-draw the wave form... It used to. Cakewalk Pro Audio 9, for example, had this. They TOOK IT AWAY when they introduced envelopes. Unbelievable. I am still in disbelief, years later. ( ... shakes head ... ) 
Registered Cakewalk user since 1995
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John
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/24 17:45:50
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ORIGINAL: ed97643
Now, if only Sonar had a pencil tool built in to re-draw the wave form...
It used to. Cakewalk Pro Audio 9, for example, had this.
They TOOK IT AWAY when they introduced envelopes. Unbelievable.
I am still in disbelief, years later.
( ... shakes head ... )
I know what you mean it was part of the built in audio editor. I think they got rid of it because they went to a nondestructive model. It was at the time the only DAW that was like that. Everything being edited in a nondestructive way. You gain some you loose some. It would be a neat feature if they just added that back.
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ed97643
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/24 18:04:12
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Amen, brother! I'm all about having nondestructive options; but give us the choice!
Registered Cakewalk user since 1995
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/24 20:06:03
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I have moved this post to post 32... I hope I don't get too much flame for doing so... but I'll accept whatever you all deem neccesary.
post edited by mike_mccue - 2008/10/24 21:19:23
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dontletmedrown
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RE: snare & kick clipping
2008/10/24 20:40:17
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ORIGINAL: wmb
You also probably don't have enough headroom in your mix if you lose the drums when you turn them down.
I completely disagree with this. If you lose the drums when you turn them down, you have recorded them with bad mic placement, or the drummer is not hitting hard enough. When I have a kick or snare that has been recorded well and run through my distressors, I can turn them down -20db (or more) and still hear them poking through the mix. I would definitely replace the clipped hits with non-clipped hits no matter how long it takes. The time spent is your punishment for not being thorough during the tracking stage.
post edited by dontletmedrown - 2008/10/24 20:49:38
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