Helpful Reply(solved) Best way to hook up a compressor?

Author
g_randybrown
Max Output Level: -40 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3522
  • Joined: 2003/12/24 11:30:04
  • Location: Las Cruces, NM, USA
  • Status: offline
2015/06/13 11:40:04 (permalink)

(solved) Best way to hook up a compressor?

Hi guys,
I'm trying to help out a friend that runs sound for a church (he has even less experience than I with live sound).
They recently bought a used Alesis 3630 and have a Soundcraft Spirit Folio FX8 (http://www.manualslib.com/manual/558564/Soundcraft-Spirit-Folio-Fx8.html?page=2#manual ).
I was think of just using an aux out/aux return but both are being used (one for a CD player and the other for a cassette player).
I was hoping there is a cable that would accept both and insert into just one of the aux returns (all of the channels are taken by microphones).
So I did a google for "2 stereo rca female to 1 male stereo quarter inch" but can't find one.
Is that because it's a bad idea to attempt this kind of jerry-rigging or is it that they're just hard to find?
If it is the former, what would you guys suggest I do?
The other option I suppose would be to burn all of the cassettes that he may need to CD and chunk the cassette player altogether.
Thanks very much,
Randy
post edited by g_randybrown - 2015/06/14 15:05:01

G. Randy Brown 
Windows 10, 64 bit, Platinum
Intel Core i7-3770S
Asus P8Z77-V LK mobo   
4X8GB Corsair XMS3 memory 
500 GB Crucial BX100 SSD (OS)
two WD Black 1 TB HDD
SAPPHIRE DUAL-X 100314-4L Radeon HD 6970 2GB 256-Bit GDDR5 
Presonus AudioBox 22VSL
youtube.com/crystalclearnm
#1
Beagle
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 50621
  • Joined: 2006/03/29 11:03:12
  • Location: Fort Worth, TX
  • Status: offline
Re: Best way to hook up a compressor? 2015/06/13 12:01:08 (permalink)
Randy - here is the cable you're looking for:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/YPR102
 
you can customize your searches on sweetwater with their cable finder:
http://www.sweetwater.com/shop/cables/finder.php
 
as far as whether or not this is the best way to do this it really depends on what he's wanting to do with the compressor.  what will be it's purpose?

http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
i7, 16G DDR3, Win10x64, MOTU Ultralite Hybrid MK3
Yamaha MOXF6, Hammond XK3c, other stuff.
#2
g_randybrown
Max Output Level: -40 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3522
  • Joined: 2003/12/24 11:30:04
  • Location: Las Cruces, NM, USA
  • Status: offline
Re: Best way to hook up a compressor? 2015/06/13 13:23:38 (permalink)
It will primarily be for smoothing out the dynamics of speakers at the podium or while using a lav mic.
I found plenty of cables like the one you linked but for the "configuration" I'm talking about would take two stereo female RCA to a single stereo 1/4 males to plug into the board.
I'm thinking the best solution would be to get rid of the cassette player (after burning cassettes to CD-R).
Thanks Beagle,
Randy
 

G. Randy Brown 
Windows 10, 64 bit, Platinum
Intel Core i7-3770S
Asus P8Z77-V LK mobo   
4X8GB Corsair XMS3 memory 
500 GB Crucial BX100 SSD (OS)
two WD Black 1 TB HDD
SAPPHIRE DUAL-X 100314-4L Radeon HD 6970 2GB 256-Bit GDDR5 
Presonus AudioBox 22VSL
youtube.com/crystalclearnm
#3
tlw
Max Output Level: -49.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2567
  • Joined: 2008/10/11 22:06:32
  • Location: West Midlands, UK
  • Status: offline
Re: Best way to hook up a compressor? 2015/06/13 16:04:36 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Beagle 2015/06/13 17:01:24
For compressing things like microphones the most common approach is to use the compressor as an insert on the relevant mic channel.

A compressor isn't usually used as an effect like reverb that is connected to an aux bus with the channel aux sends controlling level and the aux return receiving the output from the reverb. It needs to process the relevant signal completely to function properly (leaving aside more complicated parallel compression setups which I doubt are needed here).

Using the channel insert means the mic signal enters the channel then is diverted to the compressor via the insert cable and returned to the insert point. An insert cable looks like a Y with a TRS (stereo) jack on the downward leg and mono (TS) jacks on the other two arms.

The 3630 is a dual mono or stereo compressor depending on if you push the channel limk button on the front. This allows it to be used on two channel inserts at the same time with each mono "half" of the compressor working independently.

An alternative approach would be to put it across the mixer outputs before the amp, but that would then compress the entire mix which may be undesirable.

A word of caution - poorly setup compressors can be a major source of feedback. Compressors don't just stop the loud from getting louder, they pull up quieter signals as well which can turn into feedback unless the compressor is well set up. A compressor used with anyone who has pooor mic technique usually needs someone keeping an eye on the mix and the compressor.

Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board,
ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre.
Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
#4
mettelus
Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5321
  • Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
  • Location: Maryland, USA
  • Status: offline
Re: Best way to hook up a compressor? 2015/06/13 16:58:51 (permalink)
g_randybrown
I found plenty of cables like the one you linked but for the "configuration" I'm talking about would take two stereo female RCA to a single stereo 1/4 males to plug into the board.



This comment stood out for me. Are you trying to combine two stereo signals into one using a cable? If so, that method can get flaky quickly as there is no control over signal level (or how they will "mate"). I tried this sort of jerry-rigging 30 years ago and it can go south quick. At that time, I just bought a cheap mixer from RadioShack to properly mix the signals (it honestly does not need to be "complex" but be able to mix the signal before it goes out, so you know what the output "truly" is).

ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
#5
g_randybrown
Max Output Level: -40 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3522
  • Joined: 2003/12/24 11:30:04
  • Location: Las Cruces, NM, USA
  • Status: offline
Re: Best way to hook up a compressor? 2015/06/13 18:07:09 (permalink)
Okay so that's probably the reason I couldn't find the cable (too flaky : )
Actually I think it may be just the signal coming out of the board to a laptop (for recording all audio) he wants compressed so maybe I should just put it in between the board and laptop yeah?
Thanks very much guys, good info!
Randy
 
 

G. Randy Brown 
Windows 10, 64 bit, Platinum
Intel Core i7-3770S
Asus P8Z77-V LK mobo   
4X8GB Corsair XMS3 memory 
500 GB Crucial BX100 SSD (OS)
two WD Black 1 TB HDD
SAPPHIRE DUAL-X 100314-4L Radeon HD 6970 2GB 256-Bit GDDR5 
Presonus AudioBox 22VSL
youtube.com/crystalclearnm
#6
tlw
Max Output Level: -49.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2567
  • Joined: 2008/10/11 22:06:32
  • Location: West Midlands, UK
  • Status: offline
Re: Best way to hook up a compressor? 2015/06/13 19:35:22 (permalink)
Thinking about it I'd suggest riding the mixer channel faders to cope with different people's voices and mic technique (or lack thereof), far simpler and less likely to go horribly wrong than a compressor. Unless you have plenty of time to soundcheck that is. If hardware compression on vocal channels just for speech is what is required then I'd seriously consider a mixer like the Yamaha ones that have a "one knob" compressor on each channel, or a compressor that is simpler to use than having to set attack/delay times, ratio, control output gain etc. as separate functions. 
 
To be honest, if you're recording to a computer, and the recording is all you need to compress, personally I'd just record the incoming audio "as is" into a DAW (even a free application like Audacity) then do any processing in the DAW. Far easier to add compression and any other processing that way because you don't have to commit to the results until you're happy. Also much cheaper.
 
The compressor plugins that come with Sonar, even the Sonnitus, can do at least as good a job as a 3630. No, make that a better job. I have three 3630s kicking about and they're OK for some jobs but "smooth, subtle and uncoloured" they are not.
 
Just record 24bit and keep the incoming levels well below the red. 
 

Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board,
ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre.
Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
#7
mettelus
Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5321
  • Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
  • Location: Maryland, USA
  • Status: offline
Re: Best way to hook up a compressor? 2015/06/13 19:59:04 (permalink)
I am not sure I fully understand the signal chain here (or the capabilities of the equipment), but is *seems* you are mixing multiple inputs then want a compressor prior to (or even on) the output? Can you simply put the compressor between the mixer and the PA?
 
I am confused how the aux send/return are coming into play here, but do not know that board at all, are you sending multiple outs with it (i.e. multiple speaker paths?). If so, the aux send/return might work to tailor the mixed signal from the output (to speaker signal) - just not sure how that board does this, or if can isolate channels this way. That board looks very capable, so am curious "why" inputs are not just feeding into the board channels.
 
Sorry if I muddied the water for you! Given what seems to be going on, I would put an input on each channel, then compress the output to whatever preamp (hopefully only one!) is driving the speakers.
post edited by mettelus - 2015/06/13 20:05:55

ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
#8
Cactus Music
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 8424
  • Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
  • Status: offline
Re: Best way to hook up a compressor? 2015/06/13 20:33:33 (permalink)
It's a dual channel compressor so you can either use it as an insert on two channels or on the master output. 
I don't think the board will have master buss inserts so that means putting it in line ahead of the Power amp. 
I wouldn't do that myself. 
For recording it would have been handy 15 years ago but no point anymore, like Tim said, modern digital recording can be done at a safe level and cranked up latter in a Wave Editor. 
 
It will most likely cause feedback issues if used on podium mikes. 
Put it on the Kick drum and Bass channels,, that's about all I would have a use for it. 

Johnny V  
Cakelab  
Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
 http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
 
 
#9
gswitz
Max Output Level: -18.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5694
  • Joined: 2007/06/16 07:17:14
  • Location: Richmond Virginia USA
  • Status: offline
Re: Best way to hook up a compressor? 2015/06/13 20:50:50 (permalink)
In churches, sound is often mono.
 
In my experience, the big goal is to make it easy to understand the speakers.
 
Large buildings can make things pretty rough on the Ss and Ts.
 
So, a nice high end cut is a good idea.
 
If you aren't using monitors, it looks like you have an available send. So, send the main out to compressor 1 and another send to the sidechain for compressor 1. Use the EQ to pull out EVERYTHING except sound above 4K. This signal triggers the compressor to work as a D-Esser.
 
Sound the out of compressor 1 into Compressor 2 and apply some compression there.
 
Then you have a single return to your board.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#10
g_randybrown
Max Output Level: -40 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3522
  • Joined: 2003/12/24 11:30:04
  • Location: Las Cruces, NM, USA
  • Status: offline
Re: Best way to hook up a compressor? 2015/06/14 08:52:17 (permalink)
Lots of good info guys, thanks very much.
I was thinking that using an aux send/return would enable dialing in the amount of compression needed on each channel but I can see where that would be a bad idea now.
The biggest concern here is the lav mic channel (speakers looking downward to read, unconsciously brushing against the mic, etc) so I think we'll just go with using the insert for that channel and maybe the podium mic too (running the compressor in mono mode).
As for compressing in post, he is running an old version of Sony Vegas but I feel sure it has a compressor so I'll suggest he inserts a compressor on the single audio track he's recording before rendering. When I think about it now I think he has just been burning straight to CD with a dry signal. 
Thanks again my friends,
Randy
 

G. Randy Brown 
Windows 10, 64 bit, Platinum
Intel Core i7-3770S
Asus P8Z77-V LK mobo   
4X8GB Corsair XMS3 memory 
500 GB Crucial BX100 SSD (OS)
two WD Black 1 TB HDD
SAPPHIRE DUAL-X 100314-4L Radeon HD 6970 2GB 256-Bit GDDR5 
Presonus AudioBox 22VSL
youtube.com/crystalclearnm
#11
Cactus Music
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 8424
  • Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
  • Status: offline
Re: Best way to hook up a compressor? 2015/06/14 12:13:44 (permalink)
Ya, a lot of Churches will hand out the CD's as people are leaving the building! They also post the service on line as well as live streaming to a internet radio type system. 
Various results can be achieved depending on the sound persons ability. 
It is a huge topic on Gear slutz as many people ask these questions all the time. There are probably more sound systems in churches these days than in night clubs and bars. 
 
When I hear compressed audio I think back to those Sony table top cassette recorders. You first hear a loud CLUNK then hissing room noise, then the person starts to speak and the compressor kicks in after one second and you can't hear anything! 
They now have a modern version of this with the Tascam, Zoom etc handy recorders. But the compressors built into those can trash the sound in the same way so I don't use it. Record at a safe level. 
 
As example if I recorded direct to Wave Lab at a safe level, it would take less than a minute to edit the file and normalize it to .5 db. Give me another minute and I could apply the Loudness Maximizer and boost it another 2-4 db.  With a multi CD burner set up those CD's would be ready in about 6 minutes. 
 
If they use that compressor on a podium mike it won't make it louder. All it can do is catch the odd peak ( set the attack fast)  This is OK if there is no one on the sound board and your looking for automatic attenuation when someone gets rowdy on the mike. But the job of a sound person is to ride the faders and keep an eye on the little red lights. 
I'm afraid adding magic boxes like feedback destroyers or compressors to a podium mike is not the solution to achieving more volume. 
Good quality mikes, proper speaker placement and lots of power. A properly set up compressor just to catch a few peaks is a bit of a luxury at best.   
 
Compressors have to be 100% wet, in other words, the entire signal has to pass through any dynamic processor to work properly. There is side chaining but that is a different topic. 
So EQ 's, Limiters and compressors always are in line with an input or output signal. 
The insert jack patch point is designed to facilitate this properly. Or in a pinch you can patch directly in and out with the correct cables on hand. 
Sending a signal out of an aux t a compressor and back to the board would do nothing other than increasing the level of the signal. Most of the signal would be going direct to the Master un processed. 
Aux send / return is a parallel pathway used to blend effects like reverb and delay with the main mix. 
post edited by Cactus Music - 2015/06/14 12:51:33

Johnny V  
Cakelab  
Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
 http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
 
 
#12
g_randybrown
Max Output Level: -40 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3522
  • Joined: 2003/12/24 11:30:04
  • Location: Las Cruces, NM, USA
  • Status: offline
Re: Best way to hook up a compressor? 2015/06/14 14:59:09 (permalink)
Sending a signal out of an aux t a compressor and back to the board would do nothing other than increasing the level of the signal. Most of the signal would be going direct to the Master un processed. 
Aux send / return is a parallel pathway used to blend effects like reverb and delay with the main mix. 
 
Yessir, that makes total sense and that's what I've learned from this thread.
Thanks again everyone,
Randy

G. Randy Brown 
Windows 10, 64 bit, Platinum
Intel Core i7-3770S
Asus P8Z77-V LK mobo   
4X8GB Corsair XMS3 memory 
500 GB Crucial BX100 SSD (OS)
two WD Black 1 TB HDD
SAPPHIRE DUAL-X 100314-4L Radeon HD 6970 2GB 256-Bit GDDR5 
Presonus AudioBox 22VSL
youtube.com/crystalclearnm
#13
Jump to:
© 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1