Reece I am sorry to hear about your church member taking his life. 

Why does someone do it? In my limited experience it probably the final act of desperation for them.

I've had two distant acquaintances take their life. In both cases I could see from their behavior something was not right but I honestly did not think they were on such an edge as to take their life. A third person I knew was so sudden (due to the death of his wife) that no one near him saw it coming.

Although I believe there may be signs, I also believe that without proper training I may not be able to see them even with my past experiences.

I've avoided this thread because I usually come to the Coffee House to destress and simplistically make myself feel good however, like others, I've had to deal with several people I knew when I was younger that either successfully commited suicide ("out of the blue"), attempted and failed (I still remember this really bright girl with slash scars on her wrists) or contemplated it (including my best friend for 13 years growing up - had to drag  him in from an open fourth floor apartment window once).

Now, I'm not going to talk about those events or even what it's like to deal with someone who's manic depressive (like my father was), but I will share a small tidbit that I learned during my PhD work.

Everyone knows that there are a bunch of emotions we all feel, however these emotions can actually be ranked from most positive to most negative.  A bit subjective?  Sure, and there are a couple that people tend to question on the surface.  For example, pride is actually the highest negative emotion.  Why?  Because it symbolizes holding on to some previous accomplishment or status instead of going forward to create something new and achieve more.  Deciding to move forward takes courage, which is the first of the positive emotions (others include acceptance and peace or tranquility).

For the benefit of this thread though, I wanted to examine the negative emotions and how the final one can be so misleading and misread.  Being able to recognize this transition can help you prevent a suicide.

As a person gets more and more distressed, they pass through a series of negative emotions: Anger, wanting (or lust), fear, grief and apathy.  If you analyze each, you'll notice that each one going down takes less and less energy and motivation.  The hardest for most of us to handle is when someone is always sad and depressed (grief).  When they finally descend to the lowest level (apathy) most of us take this as an improvement because it sure isn't as annoying to us as grief.  Unfortunately, this is the time when they need the most help and they need it NOW!  Once a person has given up they may seem much improved.  They may even smile at you and go along with whatever you say without arguing or disappointment.  This is because they've completely given up and they no longer feel anything (which IS a false improvement for them to what they were feeling before).  When you no longer feel anything, nothing matters and you can't think of any reason to continue your existence so there's nothing to stop you from taking your life.

Note that there are other situations where people attempt suicide, but "hitting bottom" filled with apathy are the times that are most successful.  When a person gets suicidal thoughts due to a temporary emotional state, chemical imbalance or for selfish reasons (for example, to avoid a more unpleasant death or existence, like not wanting to live with cancer or imprisonment) any attempt is less likely to succeed and should be taken as a cry for help by someone who wants to keep living.  In these cases the person usually WANTS someone to talk them out of it or to save them after making a weak attempt, and the method will also show this (taking pills after calling someone, shallow, hesitant cuts on the wrists, etc.).  Yes, these people definitely need to get help, but in a very real way these actions are mostly to get attention not end their life.

The bottom line:  When you know someone who has recently been depressed or sad for a fairly lengthy time who now seems "miraculously" better, get them help NOW or you may not see them again.  A true recovery will take time and will tend to go through the other negative emotions before the person can truly be happy again.  You should see them questioning themselves on why they were so stupid to think about suicide, fearful of what others will think about them, wishing they had a "normal" life like anyone else (wtf is "normal" anyway?), raging at the world, remembering that they once belonged and, finally, rejoining society and living again.

Beagle
tarsier - as for your lack of belief in God, I understand and validate your beliefs and do not condemn you in any way.  I would only pray that some day you might have an open mind to discussing it with someone of faith.  But I do not wish to turn this thread into a religious discussion because that is against the TOS.  Feel free to discuss this with me any time in a PM or email.

Yeah, I certainly don't want to turn this into a religious discussion! And if anyone feels like I'm over the line I won't hold it against them. I'll just say that I was raised in a devout, (and non-dogmatic), loving and supportive family. I was also very devout for many, many years.  But I never found a modicum of mental peace until I realized that I just don't believe. 

Again, sorry for the TOS violation, but with regards to the OP and the question: why? It's not because of religion, it's not because of lack of religion, it's not because the person wasn't loved, it's not because they were alone.  Why? I really don't know why. But I understand the feeling, the desire. I just got lucky enough to get help.

Ok, enough of me going blah, blah, blah.

How about: The George Foreman grill is the best becan cooker in the universe! Just be sure to cover the fat catcher with foil for easy cleanup. And cook outside on the patio unless you like becan smell permeating the house.

I've seen a couple of friends commit suicide as well...and in both cases there was very little to go on. And here I was with the depression and all else...

This also is the time of year that seems to bring this out a lot too. You've just come through a long winter and here you are thinking things will improve..but they don't. And, if you feel the least bit better then that will be when it hits you. Hopelessness, despair...all the rough emotions working at you...

I do hope you don't carry that weight of responsibility too hard on yourself...I know it was pretty rough on me when that happened too. And, you know, there might not have been any way of really knowing in some cases either...Those two were more happy go lucky than I was...

Take care...

thanks guys.  I plan to talk to my pastor about my questions and feelings.

I don't understand how anyone could do that but I understand why... in a word: pain. Another thing I cannot understand is how they can leave people who care about them with what is probably a worse pain..
My aunt who was in her 80s hung herself on the back of a closet door a little over a year ago... her son killed himself years ago. My cousin, on the same side of the family kiled herself in the 70s. A good friend came home (in the 70s) and found his adopted dad dead from a sel inflicted gunshot wound. That case was alcoholism that he couldn't get a handle on, he would get up in the middle of the night to get a drink... he couldn't take the pain anymore but he left others with it.
Yesterday I found out that one of my favorite artists, relatively unknown but very good, Will Owsley died from a suicide in 2010.
Then there is Danny Gatton... I have a hard time listening to someoe who has done that because I think about it.
Roy Buchannan... and on and on... pain but I still don't understand.
 
Then there are the Hunter S Thompson and Ernest Hemingway types that I consider to be totally self absorbed. It is all totally selfish though because the person leaves devistation behind. What sort of person can do that... ever if they are hurting and see no way out.
 
I don't know...
 
Then there are the people who would do us all a favor by kiing themselves and they hold on until the miserable end.
 
Julien

Reece - for me it was surprise to find that there were people who never considered suicide... probably (and hopefully) they are the majority.

Sometimes it's depression, sometimes a cry for attention (like 'They'll be sorry when I'm dead").  If only there were a way to clearly see it coming and get the message through that they are loved and things will get better.

Beagle


thanks guys.  I plan to talk to my pastor about my questions and feelings.

Glad to hear you're not simply stewing in this, Reece.  Just as an addendum - I think UBubba already said something like this - sometimes, you just don't see it coming, and couldn't have if you were looking.   Please don't beat yourself up over this.  

Jim - you are correct.  And all - I'm emotionally feeling a lot better today, not nearly as distracted.  I'll be talking to the pastor some time today. 

His funeral is Friday and I'm pretty sure that I'll get a little more "closure" after that as well.

Last night I was busy writing a song for his mother.  I don't know her personally, I'm not sure if I've ever met her but I hope to have it done by Friday for her.

Thanks again everyone for your contribution to this thread.  I sincerely hope that this thread did not stir up bad feelings or memories in anyone.

In this, and in some other threads elsewhere, I'm always equally surprised by how people seem to think that life is worth living just because we're born, and that giving up life should always be a tragedy. That's what kept our species spreading, just like any species, I quess.
Am I really this cynical or am I subconciously compensating something? The thought of having to live just to keep someone else happy makes life even more of a drag, doesn't it?

I guess I just envy people who are able to see some deeper sense in the existence of Homo Sapiens :o) My lady friend has sure a hard time trying to understand my views.
To me Homo Sapiens is to earth what cancer is to Homo Sapiens.

AVTechman - this is a fine thread to come back to, eh?  thanks for your contribution and your personal testimony.  this is a disturbing subject, yet a lot of people have had to deal with emotions and feelings of hopelessness.  My thoughts and prayers to you.

Kalle - I really don't know what to say to someone who doesn't value life the same way most people do.  Your thoughts on this subject are equally surprising to me that there are those who feel that way and I can't say that you're wrong for your views because we all have free will to decide how to feel, what to believe in and how to act.  But I also have to believe that even though you have the right to feel and believe the way you do, that you can't be "right" in the sense that humans shouldn't think that way. 

If you feel humans are a cancer to the earth then you feel humans have no right to exist and that makes you judge and jury for each and every living human since the beginning of time.  I think that's all I'll say about that, except that I don't think you have the right to decide that for everyone. 

Barring that, even for your own existence, you do have the right to decide if you wish to continue life or not.  Living life to make others happy does seem like the wrong reason.  Please hear me out before you take this the wrong way and go off and harm yourself just because I acknowledged that you have the right to decide your own fate.  Even though you do have the ability to decide for yourself if you wish to continue life or not, and even though you have the ability to carry out that decision, that doesn't make it the right decision.  I can decide to kidnap someone, torture and rape and kill them but that doesn't make it the right decision. 

If you are only existing to make others happy, if there is no reason for your existence other than to keep others from being upset with you, then I believe instead of killing yourself to relieve yourself of that emptiness, that you can learn to change your feelings and beliefs.  Would it be such a bad thing to learn to be happy for your existence instead of living for others?  If a behavior is destructive then that behavior can be changed.  That's what our society is built upon.  Otherwise there would be no psychiatrists, mental hospitals or even criminal rehabilitation.  The purpose (of course they usually fall short of the goal) of rehabilitation is to change critical behaviors which are harmful to one's self or to others or to society/humanity in general.

So I would beg of you that you seek professional help.  I'm sure you probably feel that you do not need help nor that you do not need to change your views.  I am truly sorry if that is the case because I believe that every human life is a gift and every human life has value.  You have contributed countless help to people in this forum and the help you have provided will branch out from those to others and who knows what chain of events has lead to the betterment of this world because of an insignificant paragraph you wrote to a forum member on how to resolve an issue with recording?  that person might write a song which touches a nation and prevents mass murder or allows for peace talks to quell the troubled souls of the middle east or African nations.  who knows?  The point is that you are valuable and you should learn to accept that.  I think you are valuable, as do the people who know you or are acquainted with you.  You should learn to accept it as well. 

You are absolutely correct, Ed.  It was not meant as a demand, but I can easily see how a reader (especially the person I am speaking directly to) could perceive that as a threatening demand.  that was not my intent at all.  And you are further correct that until people want to change themselves they will not.  I testify to that all the time.

I spent a lot of time trying to word that post correctly, but obviously I will always fall short of my goals as well because I am not perfect.

I will change that wording immediately.

It may take years to get over the feeling of being sorry for oneself the pressures that society put on you from family, friends and work colleagues to be the best and to be frowned upon when things dont go the way of how the system wants you to go.

The stigma that is placed on you by society can have a long lasting damaging affect on the mental stability of ones mind leaving you to exhaust all options until suicide feels like a viable option.

God gave life and it is not for us to take it but to try our best...I would not say I am the most talented person I know...but I would say that I find alot of people to be jealous of me. I try to work it out but have never gotten to the point where I understand another persons jealousy or issues of insecurity.

One thing I hahve found...is that, there is alot to having inner strength to finding who you are irregardless of whether you have little talent or much, praised or not praised, wanting people to understand or whether they do not wish to undertstand. its all irrelevant if it is to damage your own health.

Knowing that many people feel this way especially nowadays makes me more accepting of people with their indiosyncrasies. Knowing that when they vent at you it is a way of getting it off their chest. People who look down on others..usually have issues surrounding their own issues of self worth. Knowing that makes me look at them differently.

I suppose all you can do is have coping mechanisms in place and even when things go wrong to have faith and to find inner strength to be able to move forward and be positive.

Some people will always present you with problems, put downs, we see it all the time in these forums...some people are ignored, some have issues and get fustrated.

We just need to realise rich or poor or indifferent we are here all alone and know one can really solve our problems not even CakeWalk!