PC4K Threshold - Not accurate?

Page: 123 > Showing page 1 of 3
Author
MichalskiMusic
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 49
  • Joined: 2008/10/05 20:42:19
  • Location: Ohio
  • Status: offline
2011/09/22 17:57:52 (permalink)

PC4K Threshold - Not accurate?

I have searched the forums and other web sites for the last hour or so and cannot find any confirmation of this behavior.  Hopefully someone can confirm this.  I have done a reinstall after building a fresh system disk and I am still seeing the issue.

I was attempting to compare the PC4K with Cytomic The Glue.  I put The Glue in the FX Bin for the Master bus and used the PC4K on the Master bus.  I was very careful to make certain that both were never active at the same time.  

I noticed that the PC4K starts compressing at a lower level than The Glue.  I had both compressors set at the same Threshold, Attack, Release, Ratio and Gain.  The Glue was doing its usual job of 1 to 5 db of gain reduction.  The PC4K, with the same settings, was kicking about 5 - 12 db of gain reduction.  

Just to confirm this, I removed The Glue from the FX Bin and listened to the track all the way through and noticed the peak for the Master bus.  I then set the threshold for the PC4K to .3 db above the peak for the entire track.  By doing this, I believe the compressor should never have kicked in.  Yet, when I pressed play, the PC4K was doing about 1-6 db of gain reduction consistently.

Can someone confirm this behavior and/or point me to a posting/article/white paper that explains it?

Thanks!

Michael
post edited by Andromeda - 2011/09/22 19:27:09
#1

63 Replies Related Threads

    Jonbouy
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 22562
    • Joined: 2008/04/14 13:47:39
    • Location: England's Sunshine South Coast
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/22 22:50:25 (permalink)
    I've yet to see any detailed info on any of the Pro Channel elements.

    Maybe that's the reason nobody has replied yet.

    Sorry I don't have Glue either so I can't help you at all.

    It does however baffle me with so many 'accurately modelled' SSL style units out there how much they differ between manufacturers.  It makes me wonder what 'accurately modelled' even means.
    post edited by Jonbouy - 2011/09/22 23:02:47

    "We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles.
    In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
    #2
    SilverfoxUK
    Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 257
    • Joined: 2006/08/27 12:45:53
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 03:57:41 (permalink)
    Wow, how strange....

     Have been playing around with PC and last night and ended up banging my head against the wall. Was just about to post and saw this thread. 

     Anyway, I suspect Michael, that my issue is basically the same as yours. 


    Let me simplify this. 


    On a bus, routed with something like a metronome or something that has a consistent peak level (Make sure the bus is peaking BELOW 0db  i.e. -5)  activate the PC4K. 


    Set threshold to 0db


    WHY IS THE COMPRESSOR WORKING?  to my mind this does not make sense, I hope someone can explain why this might be and that it isn't another PC bug. 


     Surely until that bus content reaches 0db, the compressor should not be working. 


    X1 Power (by Scott R. Garrigus) States: "Set the Threshold. Threshold determines at what amplitude level your audio data will start being compressed. When the amplitude of your audio data reaches the Threshold level, processing will begin." 

     That is not what I am seeing...
    post edited by SilverfoxUK - 2011/09/23 04:32:17

    X3 64bit (final update)
    Windows 7 Ultimate x64
    Gigabyte SKT-1155 P67A-UD5 B3    
    Intel i5 2400 Sandybridge Quad core    
    6 GB Corsair RAM
    V-STUDIO 100 (Driver 1.50)
    M-AudioAxiom 49
    Korg PadKontrol
    BCF2000 



    #3
    MichalskiMusic
    Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 49
    • Joined: 2008/10/05 20:42:19
    • Location: Ohio
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 06:54:47 (permalink)
    SilverfoxUK


    Set threshold to 0db


    WHY IS THE COMPRESSOR WORKING?  to my mind this does not make sense, I hope someone can explain why this might be and that it isn't another PC bug. 


    Surely until that bus content reaches 0db, the compressor should not be working. 


    X1 Power (by Scott R. Garrigus) States: "Set the Threshold. Threshold determines at what amplitude level your audio data will start being compressed. When the amplitude of your audio data reaches the Threshold level, processing will begin." 

    That is not what I am seeing...

    This is exactly the same issue.  I don't care what is being modeled, unless they have stated clearly that they used a defective unit as their model, threshold should work.


    I have opened CWBRN-6232 for this issue...let's see what they have to say.

    Sonar Platinum (Jamaica Plain), 3.0 GHz i5 / 16GB RAM, WIN 7 x64
    Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, Novation Impulse 49, Korg padKONTROL, NI Maschine, Alesis Micron
    Presonus Eureka, Lexicon MX300
    Rode NT1-A, Oktava MK319, CAD M179, Yamaha HS50M x 2 and too many VST plugins



    #4
    audiyo
    Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 159
    • Joined: 2011/08/05 19:51:34
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 07:15:12 (permalink)
    Yeah, this is strange. Looking forward to the explanation on this one.

    Sonar X2a Producer (64 bit), Win 8 Pro (64 bit), Intel Core i7 920@2.67Ghz, Asus P6T, 6GB DDR3 Ram, Komplete Audio 6, Fender BT Jazzmaster, AKAI MPK Mini
    #5
    SilverfoxUK
    Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 257
    • Joined: 2006/08/27 12:45:53
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 08:56:27 (permalink)
    Whoa whoa whoa... Hold on a sec here. 

     Are we saying that this issue is correct? the threshold control is broken? and no-one has noticed it?

     What the Hell???  

     Surprised all the PC/X1 bashers are not all over this like flies on s**t


    I mean come on, is this not the most basic element of the PC4K or any compressor? 

     * Totally baffled *

    X3 64bit (final update)
    Windows 7 Ultimate x64
    Gigabyte SKT-1155 P67A-UD5 B3    
    Intel i5 2400 Sandybridge Quad core    
    6 GB Corsair RAM
    V-STUDIO 100 (Driver 1.50)
    M-AudioAxiom 49
    Korg PadKontrol
    BCF2000 



    #6
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 09:07:48 (permalink)

      Well, FWIW, I take those two compressors about as seriously as my dog's make believe furry animal play toys... the idea that they might not work correctly is hardly anything to take too seriously.

      Make the best of it and have fun with it or don't bother using them... that's what I say.

      At least they aren't painted black.


      ProChannel, Boost 11, LP 64 EQ and LP 64 Comp.... It all seems like it was designed to make you want to go out and buy some Wave Arts or Izotope stuff.



     best regards,
    mike






    #7
    trimph1
    Max Output Level: -12 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 6348
    • Joined: 2010/09/07 19:20:06
    • Location: London ON
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 09:10:08 (permalink)
    If they don't work ...then there are loads of others that will.

    The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate.

    Bushpianos
    #8
    SilverfoxUK
    Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 257
    • Joined: 2006/08/27 12:45:53
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 09:27:34 (permalink)
    trimph1


    If they don't work ...then there are loads of others that will.





    Are you kidding I know this but: I like the ease of use of the PC, the fact it is right there. Oh and did I mention it was one of the reasons I bought X1. 


     Oh God. 

    X3 64bit (final update)
    Windows 7 Ultimate x64
    Gigabyte SKT-1155 P67A-UD5 B3    
    Intel i5 2400 Sandybridge Quad core    
    6 GB Corsair RAM
    V-STUDIO 100 (Driver 1.50)
    M-AudioAxiom 49
    Korg PadKontrol
    BCF2000 



    #9
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 10:13:48 (permalink)

    "I like the ease of use of the PC, the fact it is right there. Oh and did I mention it was one of the reasons I bought X1."


    Well then, you got something like 80% of what you wanted.  :-)

    I paid my $99 bucks and regret ever opening the box. :-)

    I should have just put it on the shelf and started counting down the days for X1 Expanded to be released so I could upgrade.



    Just make the 4k compress something....  that analog stuff never really lined up with labels on the face plate anyways.

    It's at least as good as any other compressor out there, plus it's right there and easy to use.

    all the best,
    mike


    #10
    brundlefly
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 14250
    • Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
    • Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 10:39:20 (permalink)
    Whoa whoa whoa... Hold on a sec here.   Are we saying that this issue is correct? the threshold control is broken? and no-one has noticed it?



    Whoa whoa whoa... Hold on a sec here. Take a closer look at that "Threshold" knob label. The PC4K doesn't have a "Threshold" control; it has an Input level control. Check the Help. It works completely differently from a conventional compressor. Basically the threshold is fixed, and you raise the input level of the signal to make it "run into" the fixed threshold. You can't set it by the numbers and compare it with a plug-in that has a variable threshold unless you do some math.

    SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424  (24-bit, 48kHz)
    Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
    #11
    BEATZM1D10T
    Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 285
    • Joined: 2009/05/22 12:43:50
    • Location: Mid-West
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 11:21:24 (permalink)
    Whoa whoa whoa....Hold on a sec here. People jumping to hasty generalizations about a feature they don't understand or know nothing about... Just another day on the Cakewalk forums.
    #12
    John
    Forum Host
    • Total Posts : 30467
    • Joined: 2003/11/06 11:53:17
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 11:25:09 (permalink)
    The PC76 U-Type Channel Compressor does not have a dedicated threshold control. The PC4K S-Type Bus Compressor does.



    Best
    John
    #13
    brundlefly
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 14250
    • Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
    • Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 11:37:57 (permalink)
    The PC76 U-Type Channel Compressor does not have a dedicated threshold control. The PC4K S-Type Bus Compressor does.



    Oops. My mistake - mixing up the two. Sorry guys.


    I'll have to check the right compressor , and see if I can replicate an issue. Right offhand, though, it seems to me that compressor thresholds are a little "soft" in terms of where they start working and how hard. The Attack parameter can have a big impact on that. This is one of the things that makes different compressors sound different, right?

    SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424  (24-bit, 48kHz)
    Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
    #14
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 11:59:35 (permalink)
    I knew you was mistaken... cause I have some real ones to look at.

    :-)

    In any event...

    Once the threshold is set low enough to recognize a signal the attack parameter will certainly have a lot to do with whether, if and when a compressor kicks in,


    If you set the threshold above the contents peaks the idea is that the compressor will not kick in at all... so attack settings shouldn't mean much.


    I'm guessing the OPs observation has something to do with VU meter emulations, vague parameter indicators on the knobs, and a response to peaking in the actual compressor.


    all the best,
    mike





    #15
    Jonbouy
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 22562
    • Joined: 2008/04/14 13:47:39
    • Location: England's Sunshine South Coast
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 12:13:45 (permalink)
    mike_mccue


    I'm guessing the OPs observation has something to do with VU meter emulations, vague parameter indicators on the knobs, and a response to peaking in the actual compressor.


    But who knows when the concept of 'accurate modelling' is applied to these emulations?

    I personally can't see a purpose of comparing one emulation with another in this way, once you learn how to get the required behaviour from any one of them at any given settings you should be all set.

    A better test would be to see if the signal is affected with the threshold set at zero (or above any peaks at least) or whether it is merely being errantly indicated, rather than comparing with another plug in purported to represent a similar real world model.

    I wouldn't mind betting that Mike's REAL units even differ slightly between them.


    post edited by Jonbouy - 2011/09/23 12:21:46

    "We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles.
    In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
    #16
    trimph1
    Max Output Level: -12 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 6348
    • Joined: 2010/09/07 19:20:06
    • Location: London ON
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 12:31:00 (permalink)
    Oh boy..here we go again....

    Define "Accurate Emulation"

    The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate.

    Bushpianos
    #17
    pwal
    Max Output Level: -46 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2909
    • Joined: 2004/08/24 07:15:57
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 12:33:12 (permalink)
    Whoa whoa whoa wo... what's up pussycat?

    list of stuff
    #18
    pwal
    Max Output Level: -46 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2909
    • Joined: 2004/08/24 07:15:57
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 12:38:57 (permalink)
    well, threshold shouldn't be a part of "Accurate Emulation" 8-S

    list of stuff
    #19
    Bub
    Max Output Level: -3.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 7196
    • Joined: 2010/10/25 10:22:13
    • Location: Sneaking up behind you!
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 12:40:00 (permalink)
    *DELETED* Answered my own question.

    "I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
    #20
    Jonbouy
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 22562
    • Joined: 2008/04/14 13:47:39
    • Location: England's Sunshine South Coast
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 12:42:47 (permalink)
    I knew you was mistaken... cause I have some real ones to look at. :-)


    You have some real SSL 4000 bus comps?

    "We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles.
    In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
    #21
    SteveStrummerUK
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31112
    • Joined: 2006/10/28 10:53:48
    • Location: Worcester, England.
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 12:48:53 (permalink)

     Music:     The Coffee House BandVeRy MeTaL

    #22
    brundlefly
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 14250
    • Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
    • Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 14:02:33 (permalink)
    I checked it out. Definitely something a little off. Basically, it seems the actual threshold is about 12dB below the indicated Threshold. And it's audible - not just a metering issue. 

    And the Ratio settings do not behave consistently. At higher Threshold settings, a ratio of 2:1 clamps harder than 10:1. 


    P.S. I checked my math using ye olde Sonitus compressor, and its output was totally predictable to a tenth of a dB for any given Threshold and Ratio setting with a hard knee. Things get a little trickier with a soft knee, but even with a 30dB wide knee, the Sonitus compressor does not start kicking in anywhere near as early or aggressively as the PC4K.
    post edited by brundlefly - 2011/09/23 14:48:35

    SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424  (24-bit, 48kHz)
    Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
    #23
    AT
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 10654
    • Joined: 2004/01/09 10:42:46
    • Location: TeXaS
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 14:23:21 (permalink)
    Steve,

    I didn't know you were in "The 'Hill".  Which one is yous?  Or are you Sean?

    ;-)

    https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
    http://www.bnoir-film.com/  
     
    there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
    24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
    #24
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 15:23:48 (permalink)
    Jonbouy



    I knew you was mistaken... cause I have some real ones to look at. :-)


    You have some real SSL 4000 bus comps?


    I do not personally own it.... a buddy from down the street owns the SSL 4k module that he brought back from angel town.

    I own the Purple 1176 clones.


    best regards,
    mike



    #25
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 15:25:35 (permalink)
    brundlefly


    I checked it out. Definitely something a little off. Basically, it seems the actual threshold is about 12dB below the indicated Threshold. And it's audible - not just a metering issue. 

    And the Ratio settings do not behave consistently. At higher Threshold settings, a ratio of 2:1 clamps harder than 10:1. 


    P.S. I checked my math using ye olde Sonitus compressor, and its output was totally predictable to a tenth of a dB for any given Threshold and Ratio setting with a hard knee. Things get a little trickier with a soft knee, but even with a 30dB wide knee, the Sonitus compressor does not start kicking in anywhere near as early or aggressively as the PC4K.



    Thank you for making the test and providing some info.

    all the best,
    mike




    #26
    MichalskiMusic
    Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 49
    • Joined: 2008/10/05 20:42:19
    • Location: Ohio
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 16:17:57 (permalink)
    mike_mccue


    I knew you was mistaken... cause I have some real ones to look at.

    :-)

    In any event...

    Once the threshold is set low enough to recognize a signal the attack parameter will certainly have a lot to do with whether, if and when a compressor kicks in,


    If you set the threshold above the contents peaks the idea is that the compressor will not kick in at all... so attack settings shouldn't mean much.


    I'm guessing the OPs observation has something to do with VU meter emulations, vague parameter indicators on the knobs, and a response to peaking in the actual compressor.


    all the best,
    mike

    Your guess would be wrong. 

    Sonar Platinum (Jamaica Plain), 3.0 GHz i5 / 16GB RAM, WIN 7 x64
    Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, Novation Impulse 49, Korg padKONTROL, NI Maschine, Alesis Micron
    Presonus Eureka, Lexicon MX300
    Rode NT1-A, Oktava MK319, CAD M179, Yamaha HS50M x 2 and too many VST plugins



    #27
    MichalskiMusic
    Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 49
    • Joined: 2008/10/05 20:42:19
    • Location: Ohio
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 16:20:38 (permalink)
    brundlefly


    I checked it out. Definitely something a little off. Basically, it seems the actual threshold is about 12dB below the indicated Threshold. And it's audible - not just a metering issue. 

    And the Ratio settings do not behave consistently. At higher Threshold settings, a ratio of 2:1 clamps harder than 10:1. 


    P.S. I checked my math using ye olde Sonitus compressor, and its output was totally predictable to a tenth of a dB for any given Threshold and Ratio setting with a hard knee. Things get a little trickier with a soft knee, but even with a 30dB wide knee, the Sonitus compressor does not start kicking in anywhere near as early or aggressively as the PC4K.


    Thanks so much for the confirmation and, going beyond that, measuring the actual difference.  At least this way, I have a way to calculate a somewhat accurate threshold setting.

    Sonar Platinum (Jamaica Plain), 3.0 GHz i5 / 16GB RAM, WIN 7 x64
    Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, Novation Impulse 49, Korg padKONTROL, NI Maschine, Alesis Micron
    Presonus Eureka, Lexicon MX300
    Rode NT1-A, Oktava MK319, CAD M179, Yamaha HS50M x 2 and too many VST plugins



    #28
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/23 16:21:18 (permalink)
    There you go.

    1 guess vaporized.

    best,
    mike


    #29
    SilverfoxUK
    Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 257
    • Joined: 2006/08/27 12:45:53
    • Status: offline
    Re:PC4K Threshold - Not accurate? 2011/09/24 08:31:02 (permalink)
    Maybe it's not a big deal, but this isn't sitting right with me. 

     Dissapointed that the manual AND Scott Garrigus have this incorrect. 

    As someone that has a lot of learning to do with these tools, it really isn't helpful when experimenting say the PC for hours only to find out that the thing is totally inaccurate. Pretty much saps confidence out of the product. 


    Even if the threshold is set to 5 or even 10db more than the actual peaks, it is still audibly compressing the peaks. And as Brundlefly states (thanks for keeping to the topic) the 2:1 ratio is ridiculously squashy. 


     I'm still in total shock that all the people in that PC thread or LOVE the PC have not noticed this. Only confirms to me the strength of the placebo effect in the DAW/mixing world, and that a lot of people who think they know what they are talking about, actually dont. 

    X3 64bit (final update)
    Windows 7 Ultimate x64
    Gigabyte SKT-1155 P67A-UD5 B3    
    Intel i5 2400 Sandybridge Quad core    
    6 GB Corsair RAM
    V-STUDIO 100 (Driver 1.50)
    M-AudioAxiom 49
    Korg PadKontrol
    BCF2000 



    #30
    Page: 123 > Showing page 1 of 3
    Jump to:
    © 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1