Creating Drum Track.

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steelman22
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2006/09/08 06:59:00 (permalink)

Creating Drum Track.

I want to create simple drum track for my song. It's all in Sonar 5 Producer. But I have some problems with it. I would like to ask how to do this in the 'best way' ( to make it sound natural).
So i guess it has to be done in midi track. Then create smth in Drum Map? And then assing a synth for Output. Is that right? Which Synth Would be the best? I have lm-9, Roland GrooveSynth and some other (you gotta know them).

Matt. sorry for my english.

Thanks.
post edited by steelman22 - 2006/09/08 08:03:36
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19 Replies Related Threads

    Juan Sanchez
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    RE: Creating Drum Track. 2006/09/08 08:23:09 (permalink)
    Do what most of us are doing and buy EZ Drummer, this nice little program makes creating drum tracks EZ.....



    look here
    post edited by Juan Sanchez - 2006/09/08 08:38:04

    Take Care, Juan Sanchez

    Rockin in the free world
    #2
    steelman22
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    RE: Creating Drum Track. 2006/09/08 09:23:30 (permalink)
    thank you so much Juan Sanchez..

    :)
    #3
    Mod Bod
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    RE: Creating Drum Track. 2006/09/08 09:34:40 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Juan Sanchez

    Do what most of us are doing and buy EZ Drummer, this nice little program makes creating drum tracks EZ.....



    look here
    Agreed. Best $149.00 I've spent in a while.

    Dave Modisette ... rocks a Purrrfect Audio Studio Pro rig.

    http://www.gatortraks.com 
    My music.
    ... And of course, the Facebook page. 
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    plainfaced
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    RE: Creating Drum Track. 2006/09/08 09:42:39 (permalink)
    I beg to differ. If we start using programs like EZ Drummer, and using the installed midi loops. Its not really our track then is it.. Its like putting a bunch of loops together in Ejay or Acid, and calling yourself a producer.. I say get a program like DFH, and learn to write the drum tracks yourself.. I just draw my drum tracks in or tap away at the keyboard, or if your lucky enough, one with pads, and randomly change the velocity of some of the notes, and the grab some other random notses, and put them out of time a few ticks, to give it more feel...

    iHEART sonar7 Not Sonar 8, as I dont have it yet.
    Sonar 7 | M-Audio Delta1010 | UAD Nevana | Axiom49
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    Poco
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    RE: Creating Drum Track. 2006/09/08 10:20:27 (permalink)
    I agree with Plainfaced. Play your own music, or hire a drummer. Using canned stuff seems like a bit of a loss. I can't think of anyone who plays any instrument that can't play the bongos. All a trap set is is numerous sets of bongos, all being played at the same time. If you try, you can create something that may be simple, but will be your own. I have learned to listen carefully to drum tracks, and have come to a much better understanding of how drums work in a piece as a result. I am a guitarist/bassist/brass player, but I have come up with some pretty good drum tracks by playing in the parts one or two at a time. I find that it is actually faster than trying to find just the right loop/fills for a song. The drums sound like they fit the piece, because they do. Every hit, push, and mood shift. And when I listen to it, I am satisfied that it is my work. If the computer could play all of the instruments for you, would you let it?

    But, after all it is a matter of degrees. Some criticize for using sampled instruments (which I do). But at least I am laying down the composition myself. We are sinking rapidly toward pure plagiarism, with the rash of "sampled songs", lameo's that rip off entire phrases from other's works to make what they make. I think we are near rock bottom there.

    My wife is a music teacher, and she laments how little even her older students know about the language of music. Fight the urge to be lazy. Learn to do it yourself. Learn something of composition, placement, technique, and form. Most of the most successful musicians, whether it be rock, jazz, country, and especially classical and film scoring understand, or have eventually learned the intricacies of musical form and language. If you do the same, you will improve your music and yourself all around.

    Best,

    Poco
    post edited by Poco - 2006/09/08 10:37:31

    God People - God Music
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    #6
    plainfaced
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    RE: Creating Drum Track. 2006/09/08 10:36:53 (permalink)
    Thankyou... I was going to say that.. hehe
    Very well worded. And so true.

    iHEART sonar7 Not Sonar 8, as I dont have it yet.
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    yorolpal
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    RE: Creating Drum Track. 2006/09/08 10:58:11 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Poco

    I agree with Plainfaced. Play your own music, or hire a drummer. Using canned stuff seems like a bit of a loss. I can't think of anyone who plays any instrument that can't play the bongos. All a trap set is is numerous sets of bongos, all being played at the same time.


    Say what bro!? And all a guitar is is a stick with some strings attached. And a trumpet, of course, is just a glorified toilet paper tube made of metal. Any 4 year old worth his salt should be able to regurgitate any of Beethoven's piano works because, after all, the piano is just a bunch of pushbuttons all lined up in a certain order.

    First, all of the grooves provided with EZdrummer and most available by third parties ARE PLAYED BY REAL DRUMMERS. So in this equation at least: real=canned. How can that be? Second, the grooves used can be tweaked and edited to your hearts content, thereby making them your own. Third you do not have to use the included loops at all but can play or step record your drums into Sonar. In short EZDrummer is just another tool you can use to make great music of any sort. And, in closing, IMHO most people have NO realistic conception of how to create or perform professional sounding drum tracks...unless they've had lots of experience, are natural musical phenoms or are themselves professional drummers. Don't try this at home kids.
    post edited by yorolpal - 2006/09/08 11:12:17

    https://soundcloud.com/doghouse-riley/tracks 
     
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    #8
    ZenFly
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    RE: Creating Drum Track. 2006/09/08 11:06:32 (permalink)
    Start a click track to the tempo of your choice.
    Lay down a guide track using instrument of choice (guitar for me)
    Play the drums (vPros for me) to the click track record the midi track (or audio if desired)
    Edit the midi track if needed,
    resample with software of choice (gigastudio and Larry Seyer for me).

    This is my work flow for all original "normal" music. If I'm doing electronica or whatever I'll use acid loops or loops from the Larry Seyer for percussion beds.

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    plainfaced
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    RE: Creating Drum Track. 2006/09/08 11:24:58 (permalink)
    Look I think its very easy to make music nowadays with the tools that we have avaiable to us... Its just now we use a hell of a lot of software synthesizers, drum samplers, romplers etc. This is just like having an old DX7 and trying to recreate a violin sound, or like an old mellotron trying to sample a real instrument...

    The fact is, if I havent played every single chord, tapped away at every single, drawn in every single drum hit on ALL of my tracks, i have not written them..If i start using someone elses midi groove and changing it just a bit to "make it mine", or if i use a sampled synth loop as my lead, I may as well go back to becoming a DJ...

    I dont understand why these people are calling themselves musicians and producers when using these such tools... Learn to use a keyboard. I did.
    If you have a good ear for pitch, a feel for rhythm, a general love of music, you shouldnt need to use these tools.. I you dont have a good ear etc, you shouldnt be making music.. Sorry.

    Have a listen to my tracks on Myspace.. They may not be any good to your ears. But at least I can sit back and say "I wrote that track"

    iHEART sonar7 Not Sonar 8, as I dont have it yet.
    Sonar 7 | M-Audio Delta1010 | UAD Nevana | Axiom49
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    Poco
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    RE: Creating Drum Track. 2006/09/08 11:37:30 (permalink)
    yorolpal,

    I did not mean to disrespect drums or drummers. What I meant is that, by deconstructing the drum set into seperate instruments, basic and even quite good drum tracks can be produced by playing them individually, like stacking lines of other pecussion instruments (clave, congas, etc). I cannot play kick, snare, and hat all at one time, but I can play kick and snare (unless ghost notes or complicated snare lines are needed - in that case, I play the snare seperately). In this respect, drumming is like tapping the dinner table with your hands. If you can tap a kick/snare rythm that fits your song, then you can put those instruments in yourself. I know of few musicians who can't tap out a useable kick/snare sequence. Then I put in the hi hat, using two hands. Again reduction makes it possible. Then toms, then cymbals. This does not mean that I am the best drummer in town, only that I can lay down acceptable pop/rock drum tracks myself. What I like about this method, is that the performance is mine. I do not quantize, and I tweak individual notes little if at all. It is more work, but each time I do it, I become a better player of drum sounds (not drumset, mind you). When I need drums of high repute, or exacting character, I hire a drummer.

    If you want some real hardcore feedback concerning MIDI drums, loops etc, I'll hook you up with with a top notch jazz drummer in my area (Virginia Beach, Va.) and he'll will give you an earfull on what a "real" drummer/drums/music is :)

    BTW, drums are not the only instrument I lay down in layers. I do the same with guitar, even though I am a relatively qualified player.

    Best,

    Poco

    God People - God Music
    Where there is no peace, it is not peaceful.
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    Mod Bod
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    RE: Creating Drum Track. 2006/09/08 11:45:02 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: plainfaced

    I beg to differ. If we start using programs like EZ Drummer, and using the installed midi loops. Its not really our track then is it.. Its like putting a bunch of loops together in Ejay or Acid, and calling yourself a producer.. I say get a program like DFH, and learn to write the drum tracks yourself.. I just draw my drum tracks in or tap away at the keyboard, or if your lucky enough, one with pads, and randomly change the velocity of some of the notes, and the grab some other random notses, and put them out of time a few ticks, to give it more feel...
    I dunno. Go through the EZdrummer loops and check out the ones with all the inside stuff the drummer (yes, they used a real drummer) did on the snare. I can't get that kind of action out of my fingers on a keyboard. Or play a drum roll.

    I have a kit in my iso booth that pretty much stays mic'd up. And I enjoy working with a real drummer on a track. I could say that anyone who doesn't use a real drummer playing real drums isn't getting a real track. Who cares? Sometimes it's not possible or even desirable.

    I say, everybody do what you want to do. If your target audience doesn't require you to have a live track then get it done with whatever tool suits you. Just get it done.

    Dave Modisette ... rocks a Purrrfect Audio Studio Pro rig.

    http://www.gatortraks.com 
    My music.
    ... And of course, the Facebook page. 
    #12
    PC1211
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    RE: Creating Drum Track. 2006/09/08 12:51:57 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: plainfaced

    Look I think its very easy to make music nowadays with the tools that we have avaiable to us... Its just now we use a hell of a lot of software synthesizers, drum samplers, romplers etc. This is just like having an old DX7 and trying to recreate a violin sound, or like an old mellotron trying to sample a real instrument...

    The fact is, if I havent played every single chord, tapped away at every single, drawn in every single drum hit on ALL of my tracks, i have not written them..If i start using someone elses midi groove and changing it just a bit to "make it mine", or if i use a sampled synth loop as my lead, I may as well go back to becoming a DJ...

    I dont understand why these people are calling themselves musicians and producers when using these such tools... Learn to use a keyboard. I did.
    If you have a good ear for pitch, a feel for rhythm, a general love of music, you shouldnt need to use these tools.. I you dont have a good ear etc, you shouldnt be making music.. Sorry.

    Have a listen to my tracks on Myspace.. They may not be any good to your ears. But at least I can sit back and say "I wrote that track"


    All due respect (and I mean that), I don't think you've worked through the logical ramifications of this line of thinking.

    By your logic, anyone who's ever been in a band or used a studio musician can't take credit for their compositions and isn't really a musician because they didn't write or play every single note on every single instrument.

    I'm not a big fan of loops either, simply because I "usually" have a pretty good idea of what I want and it would be unproductive to waste a lot of time searching for a loop that matches what I hear in my head.

    However, I do use studio musicians because, quite frankly, I'm not a member of that extremely small minority that can play multiple insruments at a professional level. Please don't take this the wrong way. I listened to your tracks on myspace and neither are you (I did dig your stuff though, especially "Ones Company").

    Think of all the incredible music that has been created using studio musicians. Take Steely Dan for instance. Do you really think that Donald Fagen and Walter Becker played every note of every song? Does the fact that they didn't, make them any less than the musical geniuses that they are?

    Well, using a loop is no different than hiring a studio musician, except you don't have to pay to fly him to your hometown and then pay him double scale to perform your song. Of course, you sacrifice the ability to give him feedback while he's performing your song but you still have the ability to manipulate those loops - in radical ways if need be - to get the type of performance you're looking for.

    In the end, using a drum loop (or EZ Drummer) requires just as much creativity as writing a drum part if you're really serious about producing a professional song. There are many musical geniuses who use loops in amazingly creative ways.

    IMO, the goal isn't to be able to say that I played/wrote every single note on every single instrument. The goal is to make my songs as good as they can be. I often fail at this but I'm not about to limit myself by refusing to utilize the musical genius of others to breathe life into my compositions. If that makes me a poser; so be it.

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    RLD
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    RE: Creating Drum Track. 2006/09/08 13:06:58 (permalink)
    Exactly...
    IMO, there is no difference between hiring a drummer to play and then me choosing which takes to use,
    and me using midi files played by a real drummer and samples.
    I can't use the first option because of space and equipment constraints.
    As a long time midi programmer, I don't think many non drummers on a midi keyboard can get better results than either way.
    I've tried...

    RLD
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    yorolpal
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    RE: Creating Drum Track. 2006/09/08 13:51:26 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Poco

    yorolpal,

    I did not mean to disrespect drums or drummers. What I meant is that, by deconstructing the drum set into seperate instruments, basic and even quite good drum tracks can be produced by playing them individually, like stacking lines of other pecussion instruments (clave, congas, etc). I cannot play kick, snare, and hat all at one time, but I can play kick and snare (unless ghost notes or complicated snare lines are needed - in that case, I play the snare seperately). In this respect, drumming is like tapping the dinner table with your hands. If you can tap a kick/snare rythm that fits your song, then you can put those instruments in yourself. I know of few musicians who can't tap out a useable kick/snare sequence. Then I put in the hi hat, using two hands. Again reduction makes it possible. Then toms, then cymbals. This does not mean that I am the best drummer in town, only that I can lay down acceptable pop/rock drum tracks myself. What I like about this method, is that the performance is mine. I do not quantize, and I tweak individual notes little if at all. It is more work, but each time I do it, I become a better player of drum sounds (not drumset, mind you). When I need drums of high repute, or exacting character, I hire a drummer.

    If you want some real hardcore feedback concerning MIDI drums, loops etc, I'll hook you up with with a top notch jazz drummer in my area (Virginia Beach, Va.) and he'll will give you an earfull on what a "real" drummer/drums/music is :)

    BTW, drums are not the only instrument I lay down in layers. I do the same with guitar, even though I am a relatively qualified player.

    Best,

    Poco


    Yea that's generally the way I lay my drums in also. And I'm a multi-instrumentalist with over 30 years of experience in playing, arranging and producing. And while I can create drum tracks that can and do fool folks into thinking it's a "real" drummer on the track, if I did have a real drummer come in and play the track as I scored it YOU WOULD HEAR QUITE A DIFFERENCE. This would be mostly to a slightly better "feel" and rolls, ghost notes, and better, more interesting fills. That's because even tho I've had to learn as best I can how to think like a drummer...I'm not a drummer. I"ve got a bass player friend who is one monster bassist...but his keyboard skills are just adequate. He can go in and create very nice tracks with good keyboard parts because he knows his theory and he knows how to use Sonar to edit his performances. But he'll bring me in to replace the piano parts because even tho I'm playing essentially the same thing he scored it sounds way better. That's what using the loops in EZDrummer (or any other comparable program) does for most folks...gives them access to a better performance. Now, as to whether folks should learn how to be better players on their given instrument...of course they should. Not only will it make you a better arranger and performer...it will teach you how to better utilize such tools as EZdrummer or any other sampler/soft synth. Just my two cents.


    https://soundcloud.com/doghouse-riley/tracks 
     
    Where you come from is gone...where you thought you were goin to weren't never there...and where you are ain't no good unless you can get away from it.

    Sonar X3E Expanded Producer Edition 64 bit running on a Studio Cat Pro System Win 7 64bit 2.8ghz Core i7 with 12 gigs ram. MOTU Audio Express.
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    holderofthehorns
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    RE: Creating Drum Track. 2006/09/08 14:04:06 (permalink)
    Whatever technique is used, if done well, the casual listener should not be able to distinguish the difference.

    Eric Anderson
    HolderOfTheHorns - It's a Viking thing.
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    WhyBe
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    RE: Creating Drum Track. 2006/09/08 14:21:48 (permalink)
    I would love to hear some GREAT music that uses canned loops.
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    yorolpal
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    RE: Creating Drum Track. 2006/09/08 14:51:34 (permalink)
    I"ll bet you have.

    https://soundcloud.com/doghouse-riley/tracks 
     
    Where you come from is gone...where you thought you were goin to weren't never there...and where you are ain't no good unless you can get away from it.

    Sonar X3E Expanded Producer Edition 64 bit running on a Studio Cat Pro System Win 7 64bit 2.8ghz Core i7 with 12 gigs ram. MOTU Audio Express.
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    WhyBe
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    RE: Creating Drum Track. 2006/09/08 14:58:51 (permalink)
    Isn't using canned loops like working with a musician that just doesn't mesh with your style? In this case, great chops don't mean crap.

    Likewise, using your own programmed patterns can be like working with a musician that sucks...keeping your music from being as good as can be.

    Either way, there's a catch.
    #19
    PC1211
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    RE: Creating Drum Track. 2006/09/08 22:27:09 (permalink)
    RLD,

    Listened to your tunes on Soundclick. Very impressive creatively and performance wise. Great job!

    I know exactly what you mean about trying to get convincing drum parts using your keyboard and midi.

    I have a friend, a mult-instrumentalist like you, who recorded some instrumentals about 5 years ago on his VS-880, playing his drum parts on an SR-16 (he literally used the pads on the SR-16 which I don't even think are touch sensitive). Nonetheless, considering the technological/sonic limitations of the SR-16; I think his drum tracks turned out pretty good.

    He hasn't recorded any new instrumentals since then and I have to wonder how impressive his stuff would sound today if he'd stayed with it and utilized some of the newer technology like EZ Drummer & Sonar 5.

    Here's a link to one of my favorites by him:

    Alone Again by Rod Clement
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