Stuck midi notes?

Hi everyone,
 
Small problem since I've been working with my new pc. Stuck midi notes. I've never had this issue before and have no idea what to do to make it stop. I've messed with buffer sizes, system exclusives, and just about everything I could think of. It seems to do it if I run the TPS module too, so it's definitely something strange going on. I'm not having any problems sending or receiving midi through any of my gear. I'm just getting stuck notes during playback to where the midi passage will just keep going and eventually go on top of itself. I can't make it through an entire song without this happening. It comes close, but never makes it. I have to either stop playback and hit the panic button, or I let it play out to see if it will fix itself, but it never does.
 
I have the midi devices that are connected to my system set to "external" so Sonar can take control of them. Local set to off as well. It seems to be strings that do it the most. Anything with a long sustain where you hit the note and hold, and it will hold as long as you do. Any suggestions as to what I may try? I'm also using a MOTU Midi Express XT. I have my own little configuration for that which was brought over from my old machine before it died. It looks to be configured perfectly to me and everything works, so I didn't think the stuck notes thing would stem from that. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.

Hi Danny,
 
Do you experience the same stuck note behavior if you use the RME's MIDI port...
IOW, Is the problem isolated to the MOTU unit?

Chappel: Thanks, all that stuff is ok. The only thing that has changed is a new machine where the MOTU usb in now plugged into the new machine.

Jim: I haven't tried that because I have 5 ins and outs that need to be hooked up. But, even if I use the TPS piano module in Sonar, that too is sticking notes...so that should have nothing to do with the MOTU, right?

For example, a bud of mine sent me a midi. I was going to change the instrumentation around to make it sound more realistic. I have an old Kawai session trainer midi box that I use for all my general midi. The sounds are about as good as the TPS module in Sonar, but this is a hardware device. So I load up this midi, and it starts to stick. It even sticks using my REAL hardware synths as well.

So I decided to load up another midi that I know has always worked for me. Same thing happens. So, I disable all my hardware synths and load up the TPS to see how it reacts. I set all the midi outs to the TPS, start playback...and eventually, that too sticks to where I have to click the panic button. I have no clue how to fix this one...but I've never had this issue before. These midi tunes I have here worked perfectly in my old system with the exact same configuration using the MOTO. The only difference may be that the MOTO was installed with a 64 bit driver this time. But if that's the case, why would the TPS stick on me too? That's not even connected to anything. LOL! Thanks Jim.

Well, all I know is your thread topic reminded me of one of those things I've put up which could be a bug, but I don't know for sure if it's the same thing you're talking about.  Because starting and stopping Does fix the problem for me, along with--well, read the rest, you'll see.

It's on a constant basis for me - the sustain data from one MIDI track is being applied to a second one, to a track where that CC64 data wrecks the way that instrument to work.

Happened to me today, as it does literally every day.  I was working with a harp which needs to have sustain Off for the sound to ring out the way Harps usually do.  A CC64 value of 127, On, is used for a dampened Harp sound, which is less typical but sometimes wanted. 

Throughout working on this project the piano track's very active sustain data kept being read on the harp track - and besides starting and stopping, my other weapon is to keep inserting cc64 ZERO data in the harp track so that when I go back to work on the track, I'm more likely to hit an area that has a close-by zero command.  Otherwise I'll keep getting that choked off, muted harp sound which isn't what I want.- A hassle, yes?  Yes!

Randy

Hi, Danny - I'm on Sonar 8.3.1, so don't have True Piano--I think that's what TPS is standing for?

Before I used Sonar 8.3.1, I used Sonar Home Studio 6.  This problem with stuck or sustained notes never happened there.  I was amazed to see this problem Majorly present itself as soon as I upgraded to the full Sonar.  And, like I've said in my other posts, I've lived with it ever since.  I tend to quickly adapt to work-arounds so I can get my work done--ya know?

It's a drag though.

And it might be the same thing you're talking about.  Just can't be positive.

Randy B.

Hi Danny,

What a coincidence! I just finished recording a Pad using TTS-1 controlled by my M-1 Korg via Midi. Several times during my rehearsal and during recording some notes stuck. I also hit the panic button to quiet things down. I've had this happen occasionally, but I can usually make it through playback with no problems. I'm no Midi brainiac so I do not have an answer for you, just thought I'd let you all know I've had the same experience.

In the TTS1 interface click on the EFFECTS box on the right top and turn off the reverb to see if that stops the problem.  It could be  caused by a high track reverb setting in combo with the default overall Effects reverb.  Some midi controller may be causing to high an internal reverb setting.  You could also try disconnecting your sustain pedal(if you have one) just to make sure it isn't sending random info from a bad connection somewhere.

lorneyb2


In the TTS1 interface click on the EFFECTS box on the right top and turn off the reverb to see if that stops the problem.  It could be  caused by a high track reverb setting in combo with the default overall Effects reverb.  Some midi controller may be causing to high an internal reverb setting.  You could also try disconnecting your sustain pedal(if you have one) just to make sure it isn't sending random info from a bad connection somewhere.

Thanks lorney, but it's not just that synth. It's everything I run other than drum modules. No sustain pedals are connected at this time. I wanted to try everything stripped down as far as possible. It doesn't sound like a reverb or anything effects sticking. It sounds like there's an invisible finger on my keyboard that is keeping a random note down. I checked to see if the board itself was sticking which it wasn't, then to make sure, I just turned it off. No dice...midi still sticking and playing out of key stuff. It gets all dissonant then it finds itself eventually...it's so weird. Then of course a note will hang at some point. I soo gotta be missing something somewhere. :(

Danny Danzi


Hi Randy - Oops my bad...TTS-1. I don't know why I messed that up. LOL! Sorry man. Does the TTS get stuck for you when you use it and set all your midi outs to it? I run it on an audio track and then set all midi outs to it and it usually plays the right patches automatically...or at least darn close to the right patches. See if it sticks on you. If it does, I would think we got a bug or a setting somewhere that's not quite right.

Oh, OK - TTS-1.   Well, no, it doesn't hang on stuck notes for me the way you're describing.  I never use a synth in the FX bin of an Audio track though.  I don't know if that would make a difference, but I always insert synths into the Synth Rack and have Sonar create all Audio outs.

From looking through this thread, I think it's two different things - your stuck note syndrome, and my problem with sustain being applied to a track where there's no CC64 data.

Randy B.

bvideo


Some of the other people on 8.5.3 are saying the (Options-Global) "Prepare Using “N” Milliseconds Buffer" setting needs to be kind of high, 500 to 600 ms.
Bill B

+1. If everything is good while rehearsing and recording, and issues arise only on playback, I would suspect the Prepare Using buffer is too low. All other suggested causes should be problematic when playing live as well as on playback.

Randy - Your "stray sustains" problem is a new one on me, suggesting it's hardware/config specific. But I'm wondering how would you tell the difference between a stray CC64=127, and dropped Note Offs? Is it because whole chords get sustained, rather than just individual notes?

rbowserOdd isn't it?

Hmmm... yes. Not to highjack the thread, but...


Is the piano patch in Garritan, also, or a different synth? As I think you know, it's been confirmed that SONAR has issues distinguishing incoming events of the same channel on different ports, but I've never seen events on different channels get crossed up on playback. And if the sounds are from independent synths or synth intances, that would be extra surprising.


If both instruments are in Garritan, are you relying on forced output channels in the track headers, or actually recording/writing events with different channels for the different parts? If the former, you might try re-channeling the events themselves, and see if that helps.

live with it until I can't, then go into the harp track again to insert more cc64 Zero events to keep it triggered the way it should be.

That's interesting. I would have thought that once the CC64=127 stopped the harp notes that you would have to re-trigger them with new Note-Ons. Are you saying that inserting a CC64=0 after the time of the CC64=127 restarts the harp notes at the same point in the decay? 

Danny Danzi


Thanks Randy. It definitely sounds as though I'm experiencing a similar problem. The difference for me is, the panic button. What I also don't get is how all these tracks played perfectly in my last rig. The only thing that's changed here is I'm running a 64 bit OS and am running the 64 bit drivers for the MOTU. The config is exactly the same and everything looks perfect to me. Even if the motu was jacked up, TPS shouldn't get stuck. What happens when you try that synth? Does it stick for you?

Danny,
 
It COULD be that you have a sustain pedal that has its polarity reversed - or has a bad cable or is stuck etc.
So if you have a pedal, check that out too.
 
 

lorneyb2


Randy do you have Zero Controllers on playback checked on by any chance?  (Options - Project - Midiout)  If so it could be zeroing out the cc64 at the restart of playback. Uncheck it.  You Should have Patch/Controller Searchback Before Play Starts checked.

Thanks for the idea, Lorneyb2 - I'm a long time Garritan user and the only way those libraries work in Sonar is have the "zero controllers" option un-checked.  Having that on is probably the #1 problem I deal with all the time as a moderator on the Garritan Forum - Newbies don't know about it and wonder where all their sound went.  It's invariably because the CC1 used for volume in Garritan has been re-set to zero, which effectively brings the output down to nothing.

So, no, this isn't related to that.  You have to understand that the problem happens when the harp track is brand new pristine, no data - I'll start recording and I can tell it's been dampened by a CC64 On event, even though there are none.  The place where the harp gets triggered like that coincides with a CC64 sustain event in the totally unrelated piano track.

I've lived with this problem ever since upgrading to Sonar 8 over 2 years ago.  A daily problem which I've just never mentioned on the Forum.  I know how difficult/impossible it can be to track down the reason for these peculiar kind of unique problems.  I doubt if this one will ever be figured out either - It must be something specific in my set up, but what?--I have no idea.

Randy B.

rbowser

lorneyb2


Randy do you have Zero Controllers on playback checked on by any chance?  (Options - Project - Midiout)  If so it could be zeroing out the cc64 at the restart of playback. Uncheck it.  You Should have Patch/Controller Searchback Before Play Starts checked.

Thanks for the idea, Lorneyb2 - I'm a long time Garritan user and the only way those libraries work in Sonar is have the "zero controllers" option un-checked.  Having that on is probably the #1 problem I deal with all the time as a moderator on the Garritan Forum - Newbies don't know about it and wonder where all their sound went.  It's invariably because the CC1 used for volume in Garritan has been re-set to zero, which effectively brings the output down to nothing.

So, no, this isn't related to that.  You have to understand that the problem happens when the harp track is brand new pristine, no data - I'll start recording and I can tell it's been dampened by a CC64 On event, even though there are none.  The place where the harp gets triggered like that coincides with a CC64 sustain event in the totally unrelated piano track.

I've lived with this problem ever since upgrading to Sonar 8 over 2 years ago.  A daily problem which I've just never mentioned on the Forum.  I know how difficult/impossible it can be to track down the reason for these peculiar kind of unique problems.  I doubt if this one will ever be figured out either - It must be something specific in my set up, but what?--I have no idea.

Randy B.

In PRV view for you Harp track highlight your Velocity controller lane.  Click in the purple box and select Display all continuous controllers.  Then hit the Plus sign in the velocity track until you are no longer getting anything but velocity lanes.  You may now be displaying an extra CC64 lane showing channel 1(or another incorrect channel).   Check the area where you had the problem to see if  there are any events showing up in an additional lane.  I have had this occur especially after having multiple tracks up in the PRV. 

Also when inserting the CC New value  type ensure that both the Controller Type and Channel are selected as it always defaults to Channel 1 which may be part of the cause.