neiby
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Great piano sounds?
I just bought Sonar 6 PE and Dim Pro a couple of days. Dim Pro has sound very cool synth sounds that I love. However, I was very disappointed in the pianos. I have a cheap M-audio keyboard with piano sounds that are reasonable, but they blow away the Dim Pro sounds. I've heard nothing but rave reviews for Dim Pro, so I think my expectations were perhaps too high. The synth stuff is great, but the things that are supposed to resemble real instruments do so with varying degrees of success.
I'm very new to DAW recording and soft synth stuff. What are your recommendations for getting some really nice piano sounds? I just want something that really sounds like a piano and can be used in Sonar.
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
John
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wrench45us
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/21 12:22:51
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first -- Dim Pro piano sounds are awfully good for the size of the files and all things considered they're very expressive for their weight second -- among the small circles i frequent http://www.postpiano.com/index.php the PMI piano samples -- now taken over by SampleTekk (and are in the middle of yet another deep discount (50% off) group buy) are among the best full sampled 'realistic' piano http://www.sampletekk.com/products.php?cat=44 you will need to invest in a sample playing synth like Kontakt 2 and a system with some memory so the investment may or may not be significant compared to your needs and desires among those small circles the 'Old Lady' is a definite favorite follwed by Black Steinway and 'Emperor' but there are mp3s and you can listen for yourself third as a possible alternative True Piano http://www.pianoteq.com/ but my guess is you may not be happy with the sound fourth something like Native Instruments Akoustik Piano comes with 4 pianos but to my ears they don't compare well with the larger PMI samples which is always the trade off fifith compare for yourself at http://www.purgatorycreek.com/ that plays the same midi file through just about every piano out there
post edited by wrench45us - 2007/06/21 12:30:57
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neiby
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/21 12:54:55
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I just listened to several pianos on the purgatory creek site. There are some good ones! I didn't listen to them all, obviously, but here are a few that I really liked:
* Acustix Bosendorfer
* Bardstown Imperial Grand Bosendorfer m290
* East West Steinway B
* Promega Concert 9'
* MOTU Mach 5 Bosendorfer
* Native Instruments Kontakt 2.0 Steinway D
* Nordstage Steinway D
* Any of the Sampletekk pianos I heard
Thanks for the link!
John
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neiby
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/21 13:08:34
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I just listened to a few more. I must say the Synthogy Ivory were great, too.
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kwgm
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/21 13:11:45
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John,
Welcome to the forum. You've received some excellent advice from wrench45us.
Having some experience with synthesizers and my search for the "perfect" digital/acoustic piano, I wouldn't expect either Dimension or Rapture to fill this role--that's not where their strengths lie. Dimension is excellent for looping and dance music. Rapture is a state-of-the-art sound generation tool.
With synthesizers, you must pick the right tool for the job. Want to create techno beats--get Dimension Pro. Want to write a movie soundscape--get Rapture.
I'm being rather narrow in my application here simply to illustrate a point. You can use Dimension and Rapture for other projects than those two listed, but their features are designed to be strong in these areas.
The best a. piano sounds come from romplers and modelers. There are a handful of piano modeling software synths (pianotek, listed below is one, and the pianos from GEM are the other best bets here.) The romplers often have large samples and effects that add to the realism, like the offerings from Ivory and NI given above. These are generally the hardware stage pianos like the Roland RD700SX, Yamaha's S90ES, or general purpose rompler-based synths like the Kurz K2600.
By the way, PianoTek has a nice demo you can download.
Might I suggest you extend your search to other forums like PianoWorld, Keyboard Magazine, Harmony Central, and others? Search about--there are plenty of opinions available on the subject. Good luck with your quest.
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neiby
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/21 13:24:59
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Is there a pretty big difference betwen Rapture and Dim Pro? As an amateur (for the moment), do you think I'd be disappointed in the overlap between the two? I definitely like the sounds I'm hearing from the Rapture example sounds online.
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Kev999
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/21 13:27:49
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What are your recommendations for getting some really nice piano sounds? I just want something that really sounds like a piano and can be used in Sonar. There is a free version of SampleTank that includes a couple of convincing piano sounds. My copy came on a disk that was included with a magazine, but I believe that this downloadable version is the same product.
SonarPlatinum∞(22.11.0.111)|Mixbus32C(4.3.19)|DigitalPerformer(9.5.1)|Reaper(5.77)FractalDesign:DefineR5|i7-6850k@4.1GHz|16GB@2666MHz-DDR4|MSI:GamingProCarbonX99a|Matrox:M9148(x2)|UAD2solo(6.5.2)|W7Ult-x64-SP1
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Having fun at work lately
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Roflcopter
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/21 13:29:39
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Want to create techno beats--get Dimension Pro. Want to write a movie soundscape--get Rapture.
I use the first to write the latter - just to show you *how* limited any such statement is... 
I'm a perfectionist, and perfect is a skinned knee.
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Roflcopter
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/21 13:36:20
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first -- Dim Pro piano sounds are awfully good for the size of the files and all things considered
they're very expressive for their weight Also in that one video on youtube on DimPro you hear one of the testers (used to MUCH larger sample sized ones) say something like 'still can't get over those pianos', so I am a bit surprised to hear they disappoint as well - they even compare favourably to the mega-ones out there...
I'm a perfectionist, and perfect is a skinned knee.
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neiby
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/21 13:41:28
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ORIGINAL: Roflcopter
first -- Dim Pro piano sounds are awfully good for the size of the files and all things considered
they're very expressive for their weight
Also in that one video on youtube on DimPro you hear one of the testers (used to MUCH larger sample sized ones) say something like 'still can't get over those pianos', so I am a bit surprised to hear they disappoint as well - they even compare favourably to the mega-ones out there...
Based on the few that I played, my impression is that they'd sound great in a mix, but I want to hear something that sounds fantastic when it's the only instrument playing. I want to hear warmth, fullness, space and as few electronic idiosyncracies as possible. In other words, I'd like to be able to put on some headphones and feel like I'm listening to a real piano.
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neiby
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/21 13:43:24
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If you want to hear what I'm looking for, look at the list of piano sounds that I listened to earlier in the thread. Then go to the Purgatory Creek website and listen to some of them. You'll hear what I'm talking about. Some of those sound fantastic.
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Roflcopter
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/22 02:55:11
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Then go to the Purgatory Creek website and listen to some of them. Just went there - you mean the piano shootout? You gotta be kidding me, that's hundreds of samples - could you be a BIT more specific? 
I'm a perfectionist, and perfect is a skinned knee.
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Infinite5ths
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/22 04:40:54
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It's a strong opinion....but my opinion is that TruePianos is the best piano VSTi on the market: www.truepianos.com I LOVE my copy and use it nearly every day. I looked for several years (before this was developed) for this kind of instrument. Thanks to forum member daverich (who brought this to the SONAR forum's attention), I'm now as happy with my piano soft-synth as I am with my RME FireFace 400.
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DaveClark
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/22 06:45:46
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I agree completely with what Mike (Infinite5ths) posted about TruePianos, and I also owe a debt to Dave Rich for producing a video about it.
Regards,
Dave Clark
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wrench45us
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/22 08:16:05
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since TruePianso is coming up, I'd like to bring up the issue of playability and expression
some sampler/romplers do a great job of sounding like a real piano and some modeled synthesized pianos can do a great job of playing like a piano (i.e. you can sit down and get the same range of dynamics and expression when you play) and that's why I think some people fall in love with TruePianos
and some do both, but it's a bit of a balance and trade-off
just like the samples per note and layers of sampled velocity all add up to more detail, but increase the size of the files and may burden your system
and then there's whethr or not you have a weighted or semi-weighted controller as that makes a significant differnec in capturing a real piano performance
that said
the Synthology Ivory is a favorite among many at kvr
for detailed sound
I still prefer the PMI Old Lady and Black Steinway D
It comes down to a matter of taste
and Dim Pro is good in a mix, a few friends on the P5 forum and I have made the Alien Piano preset a pretty common element in our songs
the really great presets in Dim Pro have an extraordianry expressiveness -- they really raise the bar -- and in a way it makes it more disappointing when other presets don't elevate to that level
the digital piano shootout is a great way to spend a half hour or so -- if you ever wanted to know how a Bosendorfer sound differs from a Steinway there's no better site
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neiby
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/22 10:46:40
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ORIGINAL: Roflcopter
Then go to the Purgatory Creek website and listen to some of them.
Just went there - you mean the piano shootout? You gotta be kidding me, that's hundreds of samples - could you be a BIT more specific?
I was specific, but I guess I didn't word it very well. Earlier in the thread, I listed a few samples from that site that I really liked. That's what I wanted the other poster to listen to, not all of the samples at Purgatory Creek. That could take a while!
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dougsyo
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/22 11:15:13
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If you buy Kontakt2, then you get the Steinway that comes with it, as well as being able to use third-party sampled pianos from VintAudio, Sampletekk, etc. I have four Sampletekk pianos (Emperor Bosendorfer 290, Old Lady vintage Steinway, 7CGjr C7, and Rain Piano upright), as well as the Pipe/Theatre organs and Renaissance flutes. ST instruments are also compatible with Halion, but they're too big for DimPro unless you have LOTS AND LOTS of RAM and convert them with EXSC. I also have the SR Piano Expansion Tank from www.esoundz.com - last I knew it was US$39 or so including ST2LE. These pianos are smaller because they're RAM-based - and MAY be able to be converted to sfz with EXSC (I don't remember whether they're ST1 or ST2 format). NB: ST2LE does not support IntelMac UB. Doug
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wrench45us
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/22 11:42:23
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so dougsyo,
as an owner of various PMI/SampleTekk pianos, are you getting bombarded with increasingly hard to resist deep discount offers for specific sample sets you don't own?
I got one last night for White Piano and spent a few minutes listening to those demos. An additional 10% of the 50% off the summer group buy price, but only for the first 50 buyers. Somehow I managed to resist, but may still succumb tonight.
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Roflcopter
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/22 11:50:08
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OK, just checked these - my opionions (they are all very nice, to begin with) * Acustix Bosendorfer - very muffled, would pick this one out of a dozen others * Bardstown Imperial Grand Bosendorfer m290 (24 bit version) - excellent, but not better than the grand in DimPro, IMHO) * East West Steinway B - I admit this is something else - wow, this is clean. Top-notch. Must check this one out. * Promega Concert 9' - not a contender, some keys sound even plastic * MOTU Mach 5 Bosendorfer -0 - not my sound for a standalone, but could be great in mixes I suspect (very 'together' notes) * Native Instruments Kontakt 2.0 Steinway D - 2nd place after the other Steinway, would use this one for dreamy type stuff * Nordstage Steinway D - Steinway strikes again - mp3 is nearly 60% bigger than the others tho - is this entirely fair? * Any of the Sampletekk pianos I heard - will try those later. Well, with the exceptions of the Steinways, I personally think DimPro holds up pretty nicely... wonder what those babies cost, separately... [edit] the EastWest is 119 euros, not sure how the pricing works for Kontakt stuff, is probably on top of the normal package, and the Nordstage looks like it's a separate .exe to run the piano samples... is that freeware? Hmm. Interesting.
post edited by Roflcopter - 2007/06/22 12:04:14
I'm a perfectionist, and perfect is a skinned knee.
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dougsyo
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/22 18:30:50
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I wouldn't buy the full white grand - I've bought all the "smaller" sets so far - 7CGjr as opposed to 7CG - so I'd probably buy the WGjr instead. With what I'd use a piano for, I don't need that substantial level of layering to need a piano that's over 3GB or so.
IIRC the White Grand is a Malmsjo. Probably nothing I need with all the other pianos I have, but it's different from the Steinways/ Bosendorfers/ C7's I have a bunch of already. For lighter weight I have the Piano Collection Expansion Tank, which also covers Rhodes/Wurly/etc.
Doug
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DaveClark
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/22 20:48:45
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Hi wrench45us, some sampler/romplers do a great job of sounding like a real piano and some modeled synthesized pianos can do a great job of playing like a piano (i.e. you can sit down and get the same range of dynamics and expression when you play) and that's why I think some people fall in love with TruePianos Some people may not know that TruePianos uses both samples and modelling, and it's not stated here --- so this may be confusing to some. Regards, Dave Clark
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neiby
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/25 22:27:50
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ORIGINAL: Infinite5ths
It's a strong opinion....but my opinion is that TruePianos is the best piano VSTi on the market: www.truepianos.com
I LOVE my copy and use it nearly every day. I looked for several years (before this was developed) for this kind of instrument. Thanks to forum member daverich (who brought this to the SONAR forum's attention), I'm now as happy with my piano soft-synth as I am with my RME FireFace 400.
Holy cow! I just listened to the TruePiano demos and they freaking rock! I love those pianos! I also happen to *love* the Dave Rich music. I think I'm going to go check out his music, as well. I love the songs, the mixes, the sounds... I dig that music a lot.
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neiby
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/25 22:46:17
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I just listened to more of the TruePiano demos as well as more of Dave Rich's music (love it!) and I have to say those piano sounds are exceptionally convincing. I can't tell they're not real, especially in a mix. They don't have the tell-tale signs of sampled piano, especially in the upper registers, which are the ranges that typically irritate me. These just sound great. I'm seriously thinking about plopping down $180 for them right now. Go to www.truepianos.com and listen to the Dave Rich song called Simply Falling. Awesome! Is all that Dave Rich stuff done in Sonar?
post edited by neiby - 2007/06/25 22:52:49
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neiby
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/25 23:07:38
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Yowza. If you want to hear a killer piano, download the video of Dave talking about TruePianos from their demo page. I'm drooling. And I'm buying it. Now.
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whitefalcon
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/25 23:27:48
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t's a strong opinion....but my opinion is that TruePianos is the best piano VSTi on the market: www.truepianos.com I LOVE my copy and use it nearly every day. I looked for several years (before this was developed) for this kind of instrument. Thanks to forum member daverich (who brought this to the SONAR forum's attention), I'm now as happy with my piano soft-synth as I am with my RME FireFace 400. I agree True Pianos has a nice sound, especially on the high keys...
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neiby
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/25 23:29:13
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I just downloaded the TruePianos demo. It sounds fantastic. On my reference monitors it's easy to tell that it's not a real piano, but holy cow....it still sounds fantastic and has the best feel I've ever felt from a "fake" piano. I love these sounds!
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whitefalcon
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/25 23:31:07
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and Dim Pro is good in a mix, a few friends on the P5 forum and I have made the Alien Piano preset a pretty common element in our songs the really great presets in Dim Pro have an extraordianry expressiveness -- they really raise the bar -- and in a way it makes it more disappointing when other presets don't elevate to that level We have had alot of discussions on Pianos here and Dimension. You can do a search, Dimension really does have a nice piano when you compare it. Search for the link where bank samples are compared using Dimension
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neiby
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/25 23:33:09
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ORIGINAL: whitefalcon
and Dim Pro is good in a mix, a few friends on the P5 forum and I have made the Alien Piano preset a pretty common element in our songs the really great presets in Dim Pro have an extraordianry expressiveness -- they really raise the bar -- and in a way it makes it more disappointing when other presets don't elevate to that level
We have had alot of discussions on Pianos here and Dimension. You can do a search, Dimension really does have a nice piano when you compare it. Search for the link where bank samples are compared using Dimension
I keep listening to the Dim Pro pianos and I just don't like them. I've tried to like them. Really. They probably sound good in a mix, but I just don't like playing them by themselves. For whatever reason, they just don't do it for me, definitely not like these TruePianos do.
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neiby
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/26 00:10:46
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Crap. I just did a really stupid thing. I listened to the Synthology Ivory pianos. Holy shmoly! Now *those* are some good pianos! However, they're twice the cost of the TruePianos, and the TruePianos sound pretty dang good. They were the best that I'd heard until just now when I stupidly listened to the Synthology pianos. :) Now, even if I get the TruePianos, I'm always going to want the Synthology stuff.
Why, oh why, did I do that... It's like perusing a music gear catalog. I always find something that I just have to have! :)
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Ognis
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RE: Great piano sounds?
2007/06/26 00:13:10
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Ivroy sounds awsome, but uses up sevral gigs of space (and I do mean SEVRAL, I think the installer is 10 full DVD discs).. Check out the audio examples here; http://www.synthogy.com/pages/audio.html I used to be a fan of NI's Akoustik Piano, until I heard those..
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