def/ins/pat file for Yamaha PSR-K1 (XG voices)

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iandg
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2008/01/01 17:28:03 (permalink)

def/ins/pat file for Yamaha PSR-K1 (XG voices)

Happy New Year, everyone !


I use a Yamaha PSR-K1 as a 'slave-synth' from my PC, and I want to use its XG voices rather than the basic GM set. I'm using a .pat file which I think is just generic Yamaha XG. This gives me most of the voices (the next 127, I guess, though I haven't counted) but that means there are still about another 80 useful (i.e. real music) voices, and there are some voices which I can't access by direct entry - the sounds are plainly not the ones I'm trying for. So I guess I need a more specifically PSR or ideally PSR-K1 file.

Is this making sense ? And if so, does anyone know where I can find such a file ready-made?

Ian DG
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    Beagle
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    RE: def/ins/pat file for Yamaha PSR-K1 (XG voices) 2008/01/01 18:34:42 (permalink)
    Hi Ian,
    the only way that I know of to get the specific sounds out of your hardware synth is to use the audio output and record that.

    you can record MIDI from the keyboard on a MIDI track, then after editing to taste, set the output of the MIDI track to your keyboard
    insert an audio track and set the input of that to your sound card's input
    make sure you have an audio cable from your keyboard ouput to your soundcard input
    then arm the audio track and hit record on the transport.

    the MIDI data will go from the MIDI track to the keyboard, the synth sounds will go from the keyboard to the audio card input and get recorded onto the audio track.

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    zungle
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    RE: def/ins/pat file for Yamaha PSR-K1 (XG voices) 2008/01/01 21:04:34 (permalink)
    iandg

    Yes your making sense.........

    Now here's the deal......basic Yamaha XG definitions are within SHS already.

    What must be understood is XG defs are not laid out in 1........ 200+ instrument list.........they are there ..........but in different XG banks..........

    Here is how you may get to them................wait...I am running SHS4....keep that in mind.

    Also note there is more than one way to skin a cat...........this is mine.


    Open a SHS MIDI project/options/Instruments.......select Yamaha XG..highlite MIDI channels 1-16......(for now)


    Now..............View-console.......pick any MIDI track.

    Set MIDI Out ............. Yamaha XG

    Set Bank at 0 XG bank 0

    Now look at instrument list.....127 basic MIDI sounds....but they correspond directly to your YAMAHA XG tone module.

    OK where are the rest of the XG sounds you ask?....right.

    OK............understand that many of Yamaha's XG sounds are just default sounds tweaked

    To get to these .........simply go back and change banks...........play with it a bit and you'll see what I mean.

    You can also access the XG drum kits in a similar fashion...........I use this way on XG drumset............. vs......... using the XG drum maps.............using the inst defs with XG drums you can use multi channnel MIDI drums and assign seperate outputs channels for each piece of the XG drum set for total kit control..(volume,panning etc)

    Good Luck
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    iandg
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    RE: def/ins/pat file for Yamaha PSR-K1 (XG voices) 2008/01/02 03:55:44 (permalink)
    Thanks, Beagle and Zungle !

    I think, Zungle, you're probably in effect pointing me at the Yamaha.insfile (Remember, I'm not wanting to use this in Cakewalk, which I have but don't use much) ?

    Anyway, to cut a long story.............parallel enquiries elsewhere have led me to a PSR XG-lite patch list which I think is going to do the job.

    If anyone wants more details, let me know.

    Many thanks!

    Iandg
    #4
    iandg
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    RE: def/ins/pat file for Yamaha PSR-K1 (XG voices) 2008/01/11 07:13:30 (permalink)
    Some days on.......

    Right, I've got my XG (actually XG-lite) voices sorted.

    Now, I've brought a second keyboard into my set-up. So I have my PC, running Biab, Notation Composer, Midi-Ox, whatever. (Though to be honest, Midi-Ox is stretching my understanding ........) I have my old Clavinova CLP100, which is physically a nice keyboard to play, as an input. And I have my PSR as output - what I called a slave-synth in my earlier post. All of these are talking to or hearing each other as the moment requires, and that's fine.

    Every step forward opens up a new horizon !
    Now I would like to have the option of using my Clavinova as my actual keyboard, and the PSR as its actual source of sound, LIVE. Not recording. Not reading a prepared MIDI score. Just playing like an organ, if you like. Well, I can actually do that with my existing setup, but it's not practical in terms of performance - if I want to change the voicing, I want to do it quickly and conveniently 'on the fly', not stop and pick up a mouse and mouse-mat.

    And I would prefer not to have to change the cabling, if that's possible.

    I can imagine three ways of doing this, but I don't know whether any of them are actually feasible, and would welcome advice and suggestions:
    a. would it be possible, within the set-up I've described, to send a message from the Clavi as to note, attack etc and have the patch set by the PSR's native controls ?
    b. if that can't be done, is there any software application or hardware gubbins that would give me simple quick control of voice selection while playing ? (It strikes me that some sort of games controller might work here, if there were software to link up with it ? )
    c. If, worst case, I have to cut out the PC and link the two keyboards directly, I'm not sure how I'd do that in terms of cable compatibility. The Clavi has only 5 pin midi ports, the PSR only usb (and the port is the small square type, not the generic flat usb).

    Any info or advice would be much appreciated.

    Ian G.
    #5
    mgh
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    RE: def/ins/pat file for Yamaha PSR-K1 (XG voices) 2008/01/11 07:24:31 (permalink)
    i'm not a MIDI expert, i'm sure others will chip in, but if your Clavinova can send midi control information you can use the ACT function to set up the Clavi to change info in a midi track in shs (which could be set up to your PSR as the sound output) and thus change patch settings in the PSR.

    however, not meaning to be disparaging, but is the sound from a $300 yamaha keyboard really worth all this messing about for? you'll be able to get a far wider range of sounds (with better quality too) from using softsynths on your pc, and using the Clav as an input controller - then outputting the sounds to an amp/monitors.

    FWIW if your determined to carrry on using the psr, something like ABleton Live! is probably more suited to this kinda thing than CW's products...
    #6
    iandg
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    RE: def/ins/pat file for Yamaha PSR-K1 (XG voices) 2008/01/11 09:02:53 (permalink)
    Dear mgh

    Thanks for your input. I hope others may still chip in from the midi point of view.

    Re your specific comments: the PSR is actually quite a well-found craft - decent range of XG sounds, and its onboard speakers are reasonable for the voume I want when playing privately. You may well be right about using soft synths, or even getting on into sound-fonts, but one step at a time. This is the hardware I've got. To go the soft-synth route I'd need to lay-out on decent PA, and that all has to be negociated with Her Indoors - not only cost, but space and 'noise'........(I suppose as a half-way house I might be able to set the Clavi to local off (which I usually do now, anyway) and take the PC audio output to the Clavi phono input ?)

    One of the things I'm really struggling with is an appropriate level of Midi understanding. The midi info in both the Clavinova and PSR handbooks seems to me pitched at the level of someone already well in with Midi. I don't know what the ACT function is, and the handbook doesn't mention it. (Side-issue: if anyone can recommend a book or website re Midi for musicians that gives this sort of detail for non-progammers, I'd be very interested). When you suggest going through Sonar, could that be done live, as opposed to via record and replay ? I will try and find out about ABleton Live!.

    Closing for now, can I flag up again my original question this morning: can anyone suggest a practical way of varying voices while actually playing live?

    Thanks, mgh
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    Beagle
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    RE: def/ins/pat file for Yamaha PSR-K1 (XG voices) 2008/01/11 10:02:44 (permalink)
    Everyone:
    I'm not sure exactly what iandg is trying to accomplish and I think we're all trying to help him with respect to Sonar - which is what one would expect when he asks this question in a sonar forum, but clearly he's trying to accomplish something OUTSIDE of sonar:
    I think, Zungle, you're probably in effect pointing me at the Yamaha.insfile (Remember, I'm not wanting to use this in Cakewalk, which I have but don't use much) ?

    after he posted that, I haven't been trying to chime in any more because I'm really not sure what he's trying to do nor do I know how to help him do it. so telling him to use ACT is not going to help him because he's not wanting to use SHS for this situation he's trying to do.

    iandg: everyone has been trying to help you based on using your keyboard(s) in SHS - that's the reason for the reference to ACT. ACT is a MIDI controller tool in SHS. your "handbook" for your keyboard is not going to mention it because it's a function of SHS. everyone is confused here because they think you're trying to accomplish something inside SHS, which you state that you are not. if you are not using SHS for this situation you're trying to accomplish, then I'm not sure how much help we can be here. someone might know the answers for you, but so far they haven't stepped up to say so. you might do better asking this question in a general forum which is not specifically tied to a software recording program like this one. you might want to try forums for your specific keyboard, or forums for live keyboard playing to get better answers.

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    iandg
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    exact format for an ins. file ? (was RE: def/ins/pat file for Yamaha PSR-K1 (XG voices)) 2008/03/28 06:50:36 (permalink)
    Hi again, Beagle and y'all

    Well, time rolls on and we make some progress.

    As far as midi-control (input keyboard > output keyboard/module) is concerned, I've 'discovered' a one-man (i.e. not big firm committee) software which some of you may already know of - OneManBand from www.1manband.nl. It was created as an accompaniment software in the Yamaha style, but it has some extremely well-designed screens for playing and recording which I'm using simply as controllers while playing keyboard. In essence, one of them turns your computer keyboard into a 60+ one touch keypad for either single patches or what it calls 'multi-voices', which are assemblies of up to 4 patches with precision control of octave and effects.

    So as far as control of my Yamaha K1 as output, I'm now a very happy bunny.

    Next new horizon: I want to use a different software with a different synth (the Roland VSC soft-synth for the moment ) to play, in effect, backing tracks - nothing fancy - just those extra lines and parts that 8 fingers and 2 thumbs can't encompass live. I'm having some difficulty in persuading the particular software to access the synth's higher banks, despite having what (by provenance) should be a bona fide *.ins file for the synth.

    So I'm trying to deepen my understanding of the whole *.ins 'thing', and - here comes the real question - I'm a bit surprised how little tight information there is on precisely what the formatting rules for an *.ins are. It's such a widely used device, and it has the resouces of Sonar behind it (doesn't it ?), I'd expect to be able to find a definition file or sheet for an *.ins file. I've found a couple of sites that look at the process, but in a curiously off-hand way - "this worked for me, but please don't come to me with your questions" kind of thing.

    So, can any one point me at an authoritative summary of what must be included, in what order, with what formatting ? Please!



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    iandg
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    RE: exact format for an ins. file ? (was RE: def/ins/pat file for Yamaha PSR-K1 (XG voices 2008/03/28 11:38:45 (permalink)
    Further to my previous:
    the following are notes I've made on formatting by analysing a file that does work for me. But it's still not the whole story - another file I've edited by these rules (unless my proof-reading has missed something!) still isn't working.

    The following is derived from analysis of a
    YamahaPSR280_282_GX76v100.ins file,
    which Notation Composer will read as an *.ins file.

    ; introduces a line of comment. It appears to be required at the beginning of each such line, at full screen scale in Notepad.

    The text throughout this file is italic

    Introductory comment 'para' is 'bracketed' by dashed lines, which are themselves preceded by semi-colons - so these lines are probably for visual effect only

    One blank line then:
    .Patch Names that is: period/full stop followed by text, italic, initial capitals

    One blank line then
    [PSR280 Bank 112] that is: open square bracket: form of synth name: Bank number i.e. lsb
    NO LINE BREAK before
    list of patch numbers and names in the form
    0=Grand Piano
    At end of list, single line break, then new "open square bracket: form of synth name: Bank number i.e. lsb" line for next bank (most following banks are short, some as few as a single patch.

    After all these, but formatted in the same way, a full GM voice list, 0 - 127 (the first list was bank 112 - i.e. the particular synch's preferred tweaks of the basic GM set)

    Then Drum kits as a bank

    Then a comment dashed line preceded by and followed by a blank line

    Then
    .Note Names that is: period/full stop, initial capitals
    blank line
    followed by a series of 'banks' which are lists of note-to-percussion instrument matches for each of the drum 'banks' just listed

    Then a comment dashed line preceded by and followed by a blank line
    Then
    .Controller Names that is: period/full stop, initial capitals
    blank line
    Open square brackets Standard Close square brackets

    Then blank line before a further 'bank'-type list,
    [PSR280 Controllers]
    each line a Midi control number, in the form
    1=1-Modulation
    Then a comment dashed line preceded by and followed by a blank line
    .Instrument Definitions that is: period/full stop, initial capitals
    Blank line
    [Yamaha PSR280/282/GX76] that is: open square bracket: fuller form of synth name:
    Control =PSR280 Controllers where 'PSR280Controllers' is the title of the previous 'bank'
    There is then a line for each bank in the whole file in the form
    Patch[0]=PSR280 GM Voice
    where the text after the equals sign is the 'title' of a bank, and the patch numbers BEFORE the sign are the lsb nos for the bank

    Finally, there are sections for .RPN Names and .NRPN Names, 'bracketed' by semi-colon dash lines and blank lines, but no entries for these categories. .

    Ian
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    iandg
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    RE: exact format for an ins. file ? (was RE: def/ins/pat file for Yamaha PSR-K1 (XG voices 2008/03/30 11:55:47 (permalink)
    This is quite a useful page - of more general application than it may at first appear to be:
    http://www.1manband.nl/tutorials1/ins.htm
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    iandg
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    RE: exact format for an ins. file ? (was RE: def/ins/pat file for Yamaha PSR-K1 (XG voices 2008/04/02 07:13:24 (permalink)
    I've just finished a 'Cakewalk'/*.ins file for the K1. It's not 100% inclusive of the keyboard's 400+ voices, because some I can't ever see myself using. But if anyone would like a copy, or advice, please contact me. I've ticked the auto-notification box, so a reply to this post will find me (while I have the same email !)
    #12
    Beagle
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    RE: exact format for an ins. file ? (was RE: def/ins/pat file for Yamaha PSR-K1 (XG voices 2008/04/02 09:31:26 (permalink)
    very good of you ian! I suggest you send your ins file to the folks over at cakewalknet.com so they can post it on their site for people to download.

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    iandg
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    RE:further curiosities of the ins. file 2008/04/05 08:33:31 (permalink)
    As previously noted, I have assembled a Cakewalk / *.ins file specifically for my Yamaha PSR-K1, using information from its own manual. HOWEVER, it is becoming clear to me that, conversely, the Yamaha XG omb.ins which comes with OneManBand 'has' voices which are not included in the K1 manual voice list, but which the K1 will produce if so addressed.

    I have no means of telling whether this is an oddity of the K1, or if may be more generally true of Yamaha devices - but I suspect the latter may be the case - i.e. existing technology gets repackaged for sale in various ways and with an eye on specific markets. If that is so, it is clearly worth doing some explorations around base patch numbers that interest you - you may find attractive sounds you were not aware of ! One example of this is an 'Arco Strings' voice in bank 24. Those generic voice lists are more useful than you might think !

    Ian G
    #14
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