Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible?

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2008/09/30 20:30:27 (permalink)

Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible?

Anyone found a word about VST3 ??

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    Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/09/30 20:39:41 (permalink)
    SONAR doesn't support VST3. We haven't seen any compelling reason to support VST3 since VST 2 is capable of doing pretty much all that VST3 can do. VST3 is largely a somewhat improved API to talk to VST's with very little gain to the end user or host developer. It would be way too much work for us to support with no known gains.
    post edited by Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] - 2008/09/30 21:34:56

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    #2
    Logicology
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/09/30 21:32:34 (permalink)
    I'm not even sure of any VSTs that are VST3.
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    budweiser
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/01 04:01:05 (permalink)
    We haven't seen any compelling reason to support VST3 since VST 2 is capable of doing pretty much all that VST3 can do


    Hmm... vst 3 helps saving cpu & get a great classification function (called mediabay in cubase) : no more vsti's Gui, all the sounds from all the synths in a single window, classified in strings, bass, piano, etc...
    Maybe a little steinberg/yamaha vs cakewalk/roland war under that... and most of the plugs to come will be vst 3. So come on, cakewalk : vst 3 in sonar 9. (stop bundeling and bring reall new functions in new software versions)
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    ew
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/01 04:38:25 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Logicology

    I'm not even sure of any VSTs that are VST3.

    The Virsyn effects plugins are; Harry Gohs also did the new synths in Cubase 4 (which also are, obviously).

    http://www.virsyn.de/en/E_Home/e_home.html

    The one thing I can see being useful in the VST3 spec is dynamic ins as well as outs for plugins. With that, you could have (for example) a surround plugin that has four inputs instead of the normal stereo in...

    As for MediaBay, there's other alternatives. NI's .ksd format is one, Arturia uses an attribute system for Analog Factory, and Virsyn's latest couple synths (miniTERA and POSEIDON) also do.

    ew
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    Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/01 08:46:01 (permalink)
    There is really no reason why VST3 will save CPU. The exact same techniques used by VST 3 can be adapted to any VST plugin. The Media bay has absolutely nothing to do with VST per se its an application feature.
    I have reviewed the VST3 spec and its primarily just a new API.

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    Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/01 08:47:39 (permalink)
    The exact same thing is available in VST2. How do you think sidechaining is done?

    ORIGINAL: ew
    The one thing I can see being useful in the VST3 spec is dynamic ins as well as outs for plugins. With that, you could have (for example) a surround plugin that has four inputs instead of the normal stereo in...


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    budweiser
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/02 05:01:57 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]

    The exact same thing is available in VST2. How do you think sidechaining is done?



    hmm... so why does it took ages to get side chaining in the app, and why a plug inserted in the plug rack (on an audio clip) still eats cpu when the clip is not playing ? This is a non-sense. Why sonar and cubase are not dealing with plugs like samplitude do ? I mean i really do not care about vst 3, but i care about cpu... So please, vst 3 or not, shut up the plugs when they're not working... (and mediabay is a really cool feature..)
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    Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/02 07:45:53 (permalink)
    Implementing sidechaining had only a very small amount to do with plugin capabilities. For example sidechainig has been possible with DX plugins since 1997. The mpre complex part has to do with the host side implementation.
    Sidechaining has been there since SONAR 7. It was pretty much widely requested roughly around the time of SONAR 6 and we implemented it in the next version. Feature requests are implemented based on resource availability and demand ratio.

    Regarding CPU, the reason why VST plugins consume CPU when bypassed is because they are still enabled. They are kept enabled to avoid gaps or discontinuities while unbypassing. All VST 3 has is a flag to tell the plugin you are streaming zeros, something we have done with DirectX plugins since the beginning of time through a custom interface in our DXi SDK. There is nothing technically stopping VST vendors from implementing the VST3 capability as a custom opcode. Once that is done widely we will support it. We cannot control what plugin vendors do.


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    cornieleous
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/02 08:04:32 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: budweiser


    ORIGINAL: Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]

    The exact same thing is available in VST2. How do you think sidechaining is done?



    hmm... so why does it took ages to get side chaining in the app, and why a plug inserted in the plug rack (on an audio clip) still eats cpu when the clip is not playing ? This is a non-sense. Why sonar and cubase are not dealing with plugs like samplitude do ? I mean i really do not care about vst 3, but i care about cpu... So please, vst 3 or not, shut up the plugs when they're not working... (and mediabay is a really cool feature..)


    EDIT: NM about the CPU, I was going to mention freezing but apparently Noel is saying bypassed plugins still use the CPU.

    Also there are a couple free alternative to mediabay, such as this one: http://www.wusik.com/w/wvm.html

    D.

    post edited by cornieleous - 2008/10/02 08:05:53
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    bitman
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/02 08:38:52 (permalink)
    Because potential buyers might be ignorant to the position that Cakewalk has taken "That there is no real benefit to supporting VST3", shouldn't there be a warning label on the box and marketing releases? This seems like a political mistake. Steinberg has to be giddy about this.




    lsb
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    WDI
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/02 08:58:03 (permalink)
    Yeah, I was under the impression from Steinberg that VST3 were capable of using CPU only where clips are located in a track. I thought this was brilliant. Noel is this not the case? Are you saying VST2 and DXI are capable of this feature. If that is the case, can we expect to see Sonar plugs in the future written with this functionality. It seems like a very logical step, a giant leep foward. Plus, it seems like Stienberg is marketing VST3 as the only plug cabable of this functionality. That doesn't seem right to let them get away with that misconception.

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    syrath
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/02 09:00:55 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: WDI
    Are you saying VST2 and DXI are capable of this feature. If that is the case, can we expect to see Sonar plugs in the future written with this functionality. It seems like a very logical step, a giant leep foward. Plus, it seems like Stienberg is marketing VST3 as the only plug cabable of this functionality. That doesn't seem right to let them get away with that misconception.


    Check out the Blue Cat Audio VST plugins that already have this feature.

    http://www.bluecataudio.com/Products/Product_Dynamics/


    Blue Cat Audio Standards:
    Native DSP code for optimal performance.
    Skinnable user interface.
    DirectX and VST plug-in formats support.
    Smooth Update: silent (zipper-free) parameters update.
    Full automation support (all parameters can be automated, with smooth and continuous update)
    No CPU load on idle: when the plugin is fed with silence, the processing smoothly shuts down, to optimize the CPU usage of your Digital Audio Workstation.
    Real time MIDI control with advanced settings (MIDI channel and CC numbers, with complete response curve control) and MIDI learn.
    Any sample rate supported.

    post edited by syrath - 2008/10/02 09:04:11
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    WDI
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/02 09:06:00 (permalink)
    This was from Blue Cat Audio website

    No CPU load on idle: when the plugin is fed with silence, the processing smoothly shuts down, to optimize the CPU usage of your Digital Audio Workstation.

    Wow, I can't believe this isn't just a standard. It makes a lot of sense.


    Edit:

    I didn't refresh before you edited last syrath.

    Have you used these plugs before syrath. They look like a good company.
    post edited by WDI - 2008/10/02 09:08:21

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    syrath
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/02 09:07:22 (permalink)
    They make pretty good plugins as well.
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    dbmusic
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/02 10:02:37 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: budweiser

    ...(stop bundeling and bring reall new functions in new software versions)


    Amen to that...

    DB Music

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    plainfaced
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/02 10:52:43 (permalink)
    Until at least 75% of all PlugIn manufacturers are producing thier plugs in VST3. I see no need for Cakewalk to support it..
    It would be silly for PlugIn manufacturers too to solely do VST3 plugs too, and drop VST2.

    iHEART sonar7 Not Sonar 8, as I dont have it yet.
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    Resonant Order
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/02 10:53:49 (permalink)
    Before people jump on the bandwagon to disparage Sonar for not having VST 3 support, you should all do some reading. This topic has been discussed to death in other forums, and other developers have stated the same reasons as Noel. While there are a few plugs that support VST3, Cubase 4 is still the only host that actually uses the VST3 standard, and they did this at the cost of having to cut DX plugs out of their program. That's not a price I'm willing to pay. It also didn't help that Steinberg kept the other companies in the dark about VST3 so they could get a 'perceived' market advantage for over a year. Not only did they drag their feet in letting people come to grips with VST 3, but they refused to work with a new 'universal standard' for plugins that Ron Kuper had worked on. The name of that standard now slips my mind, but from what I understood, Cubase was unwilling to work with everyone, and the project was killed.

    One of the big problems with VST 3 is that a lot of the VST 2.3 plugs STILL do not work correctly in VST 3 and would have to be updated to be compatible. Another price that I'm not willing to pay.

    This thread has a lot of info on what devs really think about it, and just how much work it would be to do with a really small amount of gain:

    http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=206135&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0



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    WDI
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/02 11:10:20 (permalink)
    I'm not for or against VST3. DXI or VST is fine by me. A standard would be helpful for everyone I'm sure.

    I know little about VST3, but I was under the impression that the new design would free up a hosts CPU and that sounded great. I saw Noel chime in and set some things straight. But I'm just wondering, why isn't this feature being implemented by Sonar. It sounds like it's not the host that needs this functionality but it needs to be designed into the plugs. I'm just wondering, if Cakewalk is designing a lot of the plugs that come in Sonar, why aren't they taking advantage of this feature? It just seems logical to free up the host CPU when nothing needs processing. I'm really glad to hear this is not a feature solely provided by the VST3 format and that we Sonarians could also benefit from this feature without the need for VST3 support.

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    Fog
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/02 11:18:34 (permalink)
    WDI, it's a relatively new standard I guess is the answer. In this months Computer Music, someone did ask about a certain plugin, being VST 2 and how it to use it with VST 3, and it came down to the way side chaining is dealt with.. (in their case they were using cubase 4).. although there was still a way around using the plugin as a side chain, using a different approach. Which worked just as well.

    If you think about the vast amount of plugin's free or commercial that are VST 2 , it's a LOT.. bit like a repeat of why companies are taking their time with 64 bit drivers etc.

    Still I guess it keeps programmers busy (as if they aren't already enough as it is)

    if it's one company involved it's easy, but think how many companies products support/use vst in their DAW/host programs , then there is the thing with the VST-i / fx makers themselves.

    it probably runs into 1000's of individual developers.
    post edited by Fog - 2008/10/02 11:19:20
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    Resonant Order
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/02 11:19:49 (permalink)
    Another Dev's view:

    http://www.analogindustries.com/blog/entry.jsp?msgid=1208903114014

    This is the KVR thread I was originally looking for where the devs openly discuss VST3.

    http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2907056

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    Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/02 11:21:40 (permalink)
    VST3 really brings nothing to the table of any importance to us. We'd much rather work on engineering our application rather than adopting another standard that doesn't bring any substantial gains. The VST3 spec breaks a fundamental premise that we believe in and that is backwards compatibility. To support VST 3 really means that both plugin vendors and hosts have to completely write new components - a huge development and testing exercise.

    I have spoken to other DAW vendors and VST developers who unanimously agree that there is no gain to VST3.
    In fact a few plugin vendors have proposed alternate VST2 compatible specifications that far exceed the VST3 specification.

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    John
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/02 11:28:10 (permalink)
    Outside of Steinberg's own are there any VST 3 plugs around?

    Best
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    WDI
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/02 11:34:46 (permalink)
    Ok, here's my question(s). The one thing that impressed me with VST3 was that it sounded like it freed up the host CPU when processing was not needed. However, it sounds like VST3 is not needed for this to be the case. Can Sonar currently take advantage of this feature, when no processing needs to be done the host CPU is freed from the burdon of the plugin in the track/bus effects bin? If so, what make this happen? Is it the plugin? Currently, I think all my plugs continuously process whether they need to or not. And secondly, why don't they? Is this a new feature available that plug venders have not taken advantage of? If I run plugs lets say by Blue Cat Audio who claim that "No CPU load on idle: when the plugin is fed with silence, the processing smoothly shuts down, to optimize the CPU usage of your Digital Audio Workstation" will my CPU be free from processing the plug during places where there is no clip on the track? And also, does this run smoothly? To me this feature seems very significant. I just always accepted the fact that a plug always effects the CPU whether processing is necessary or not.
    post edited by WDI - 2008/10/02 11:37:53

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    Resonant Order
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/02 11:47:54 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: WDI

    Ok, here's my question(s). The one thing that impressed me with VST3 was that it sounded like it freed up the host CPU when processing was not needed. However, it sounds like VST3 is not needed for this to be the case. Can Sonar currently take advantage of this feature, when no processing needs to be done the host CPU is freed from the burdon of the plugin in the track/bus effects bin? If so, what make this happen? Is it the plugin? Currently, I think all my plugs continuously process whether they need to or not. And secondly, why don't they? Is this a new feature available that plug venders have not taken advantage of? If I run plugs lets say by Blue Cat Audio who claim that "No CPU load on idle: when the plugin is fed with silence, the processing smoothly shuts down, to optimize the CPU usage of your Digital Audio Workstation" will my CPU be free from processing the plug during places where there is no clip on the track? And also, does this run smoothly? To me this feature seems very significant. I just always accepted the fact that a plug always effects the CPU whether processing is necessary or not.



    I only works for simple plugs. If you have a plug that syncs to host tempo, and you shut it off, it won't be synced when the plug starts back up. If you read the links I provided, there are other issues with the process also. While it sounds like a good idea, the tech simply isn't there yet. Could you imagine the amount of glitching caused by several plugs starting and stopping at the same time? I think the best bet right now is to render audio to free cpu, and archive the original track to take the load off. If you need to tweak something, delete the audio track, tweak your now unarchived original track, and render again. That's what I end up doing.

    "After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." Music at Night, 1931- Aldous Huxley
    #25
    TheSteven
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/02 11:48:12 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: budweiser
    most of the plugs to come will be vst 3


    Where did you get this information, off of Steinberg's web site?
    Maybe a some point in the future, but at the present none of the devs I know are in any hurry to support it.
    If it means loosing compatibility with DX (or my older VST plug-ins ) then AFAIC VST3 support can remain a Cubase exclusive.

    Steinberg has to be giddy about this.

    Yeah, a lack of oxygen will do that.


    ...Steven

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    #26
    WDI
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/02 11:52:07 (permalink)
    Original: Resonant Order

    While it sounds like a good idea, the tech simply isn't there yet. Could you imagine the amount of glitching caused by several plugs starting and stopping at the same time?


    Yeah, that's kinda what I was wondering about. I did start to read that thread you posted. It's like at leat 17 pages so I got side tracked. I'm good at that, getting side tracked.

    I wish they would make a standard for plugs to be able to take advantage of this feature smoothly. It would be very beneficial from my view point. Very convenient.

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    bitflipper
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/02 12:41:31 (permalink)
    That link to the Audio Damage blog pretty much says it all: "none of our current products would benefit directly from VST3's additions". Exactly what Noel said.

    VST3 seems to be driven by Steinberg marketing rather than to answer any technical need. They could have borrowed the tactic from Microsoft.

    Q: How many Microsoft engineers does it take to change a lightbulb?

    A: None. They just change the standard to "dark".


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to.

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    #28
    plainfaced
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/02 12:50:12 (permalink)
    Yep.. Its just Steinberg trying to win back thier market share that they have lost in the past few years that Sonar, Logic and Repear have taken..


    iHEART sonar7 Not Sonar 8, as I dont have it yet.
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    ew
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    RE: Sonar 8 not VST3 compatible? 2008/10/02 13:43:47 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: John

    Outside of Steinberg's own are there any VST 3 plugs around?

    See my post above...

    ew
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