Sonar 8 problem recording MIDI electronic drums - solved

A while back I was having issues recording e drums in Sonar 7. The drummer would have a good take, and playback would be way off timing. I wasn’t using input monitoring, so I had the latency settings set pretty high to avoid clicks and pops. I searched the forum and found out that some suggested lowering the audio latency setting, while recording. It didn’t make sense to me, but I tried it and it worked. I just installed Sonar 8 today. I now have this same problem in Sonar 8 no matter what my latency setting is. I can open the same project in Sonar 7 with the same settings and record OK. Anyone have any thoughts? I hope I don’t have to record all of my drums in Sonar 7 first.

The gear used for this is a Hart Pro edrum kit and a Roland TD-12. The MIDI signal is going into a RME HDSP 9652 sound card. The computer is a Studio Cat Intel Quad Core with 4 gigs of ram and 4 hard drives. The drums are mapped to BFD 2.

Has anyone tried recording electronic drums yet in Sonar 8?

That is odd.
You would think it has to be some setting you made in Sonar 7
that you yet have to adjust in Sonar 8.

Are you using Vista WITHOUT SP1 installed? If so, install SP1. There's a known Vista MIDI timing issue that was fixed by SP1.

I have a "little" latency problem...but not bad.
Used EZdrummer on this one....give it time to download.

WARNING: A country song Dixie On My Mind

Are you using Vista WITHOUT SP1 installed? If so, install SP1. There's a known Vista MIDI timing issue that was fixed by SP1.

No, I am on XP (SP2 I think). Also as I said before, if I adjust the latency low enough in Sonar 7, it records OK. In Sonar 8, same project, the timing is way off.

How you calling this thing "snap to grid"- it looks like cells- make sure it set to 16 notes or higher or is inactive for the track. If you have it active, I believe it doing something simmilar to quantization. Also- space out notes, ask the drummer to play simple, with good timing.

In Sonar 7 it seemed to be a latency issue. With the the latency set really high, the timing was all over the place. (We were not using input monitoring) If I set it low, but high enough to avoid clicks and pops, it tightened up dramatically. No matter what the latency settings in Sonar 8, I couldn't get a usable take due to the timing being WAY off from what the drummer played.

that is scary- I gotta try it- I use electronic drums all the time with live drummer. I don't think latency is midi-related- I thought it is for audio. Your drums send MIDI input or Audio? I record drums MIDI first, and keep it this way till I ready to run audio. In midi recording it takes good timing and spacing as computer interprets notes in strange way. But if yoi talking about audio- your letancy should be same on all Inputs.

Yeah adjusting the latency for that problem didn't make sense to me either, but I tried it and it worked. In Sonar 7, I recorded an oudio output from the drum brain as well as midi information. Recording at high latency, playing both tracks back was a mess. It sounded like a good drummer and a bad drummer trying to play the same thing at the same time. The test at low latency locked both tracks in to sound like one performance. I could not find a latency setting in Sonar 8 that tracked what the drummer played. One thing to mention, this was going back to existing projects and rerecording some drum parts.

Are you talking about timing while recording MIDI or during playback? Are you playing back via softsynths or through the external hardware MIDI device?
If its recording look at the MIDI recorded in the PRV or event list view and see if its visibly off from how its played. You could also connect another source to SONAR and record the MIDI for a simple click and check the timing.
Regarding MIDI playback if anything S8 is much tighter with hardware MIDI playback irrespective of the audio latency as compared to S7. This is an area that was addressed.

Noel, thanks for responding to this post. I am talking about timing while recording. Yes I can visably see it off in the PRV while it is recording, and playback verifies that it is off - way off. I am using BFD2 to playback. I would love to get this resolved. I am open to suggestions.

If the problem is exclusively on recording (i.e. the input data itself is incorrect) this sounds like somehow incoming MIDI events are not coming in perfectly in time from your driver. Which MIDI interface are you using to record the MIDI and are you certain that the MIDI being transmitted by the source MIDI device is actually perfectly in time? It can be tricky to troubleshoot timing issues like this so you should carefully eliminate all sources of the problem.

To confirm that its record related only, manually quantize the data in SONAR or create a steady repeating 16'th note pattern and verify that SONAR plays that back perfectly - this takes playback out of the equation.

Also try this. Set the variable IgnoreMidiInTimeStamps to 0 in TTSSEQ.INI and then retry recording again. It should be set under the Options section like below:

[Options]
IgnoreMidiInTimeStamps = 0

This will use the driver supplied timestamps instead of timestaming MIDI just in time.

Noel, thanks again for checking in. I told my wife that Cakewalk's CTO responded to my post. I'm quite impressed.

I am using an RME HDSP 9652 sound card in my custom Studio Cat quad core DAW. The midi signal is coming from a Roland TD-12 brain. I don't know if the sound card is recieving perfectly timed data from the Roland brain or not. I just know that what is being recorded is not what the drummer played. I had the same problem in Sonar 7 until I reduced the latency setting. The other night I tried to record the same part in the same project in both Sonar 7 and Sonar 8. As long as the latency was set low, it worked in Sonar 7 and not in Sonar 8. I did a test in Sonar 7 a little while back before I discovered the latency setting thing, where I recorded audio and midi. When using a high latency setting, playback sounded like 2 drummers playing, one good and one bad. When recording at low latency, the audio and midi (routed to BFD2) played back in sync. I have not been able to record drums in Sonar 8 yet with any latency setting.

I guess I could try quantizing what was recorded, but it is so far off, I'm pretty sure that it would not even quantize to the correct spot. Besides, previously recorded drums play back OK, except Addictive Drums tracks on occasion are off on playback, but corrects itself if I press stop and restart it. But that is another issue.

Our drummer is coming over tonight and I will try the TTSSEQ.INI suggestion that you gave me. So do I just open the TTSSEQ.INI file with a text editor and add the line "IgnoreMidiInTimeStamps = 0" under [options]? Because that line doesn't exist now with any value in the TTSSEQ.INI file in either the Sonar 7 or Sonar 8 folders.

Thanks again for your help.

Is the data you record just "shifted" by a set amount, or are the timing errors variable? If they are just shifted, try dragging the clip until it lines up properly, and seeing what the offset is. Not sure what to do next, but at least you'd know something quantifiable. If the data offset is variable, then there must be an issue somewhere in the chain leading up to Sonar, be it the drumpad's triggering mechanisms, the Roland brain's output or the RME MIDI input.... I have no issues using a Roland TD-6V and Sonar 8 (E-Mu 1820M for MIDI input)...good luck...

Yes just add IgnoreMidiInTimeStamps=0 even if its not there. The default value is 1 when its not defined.
I would also try using a dedicated MIDI interface to rule out a driver problem if you can get access to one.
You have a studio cat DAW right? You could also talk with Jim Roseberry and he could help trouble shoot it better :-)
Till we isolate whether the problem is internal or external its difficult to offer any concrete solution.

and does this issue only happen with midi drums- can you replicate it with another midi device?

Since it has not been mentioned, Im inclined to ask you if you checked the buffers in S8 as compared to S7. Options-Audio-Advanced tab-on top you see playback and record buffers. What are they set to on each version? If the number in S7 is say 128 or 64 and in 8, it is 256 or higher, that could be part of the problem.

Also,
-under the drivers tab, is there any onboard ound checked? If so, uncheck it, making sure you are using the RME and not some low quality onboard card.
-do you have multiprocessing checked under the advanced tab in audio settings?
-is the rme set for playback and recording master?
-in options-midi devices, is the correct midi device being used?

Basically, compare everything that can be compared from S7 to S8. Match any settings in S8 you can to S7...

I have a feeling you have done this, but nobody mentioned this idea, so I thought Id chime in as to the first thing I would do...

You sure you're running the Roland TD-12 brain in "Local Control Off" mode?

Thanks for all of the responses.

Is the data you record just "shifted" by a set amount, or are the timing errors variable? If they are just shifted, try dragging the clip until it lines up properly, and seeing what the offset is.

Yes it is variable. I can't just drag it into place.

Yes just add IgnoreMidiInTimeStamps=0 even if its not there. The default value is 1 when its not defined.
I would also try using a dedicated MIDI interface to rule out a driver problem if you can get access to one.
You have a studio cat DAW right? You could also talk with Jim Roseberry and he could help trouble shoot it better :-)
Till we isolate whether the problem is internal or external its difficult to offer any concrete solution.

I will try the IgnoreMidiInTimeStamps=0 method tonight. That sounds promising.

I have a Midisport 8X8 that I can try if that is what you are talking about. I haven't hooked that up with Sonar 8 yet. In Sonar 7, I think I was getting similar performace with it compared to the RME midi port.

I did communicate with Jim when I was having the problem in Sonar 7. He is great in responding to questions and did give me some suggestions. However what ended up working in Sonar 7 was to reduce the latency setting while recording. I found that solution by searching this forum. It doesn't however work in Sonar 8.

and does this issue only happen with midi drums- can you replicate it with another midi device?

That is a good question. I haven't recorded any other midi device yet in Sonar 8.

Since it has not been mentioned, Im inclined to ask you if you checked the buffers in S8 as compared to S7. Options-Audio-Advanced tab-on top you see playback and record buffers. What are they set to on each version? If the number in S7 is say 128 or 64 and in 8, it is 256 or higher, that could be part of the problem.

Also,
-under the drivers tab, is there any onboard ound checked? If so, uncheck it, making sure you are using the RME and not some low quality onboard card.
-do you have multiprocessing checked under the advanced tab in audio settings?
-is the rme set for playback and recording master?
-in options-midi devices, is the correct midi device being used?

Basically, compare everything that can be compared from S7 to S8. Match any settings in S8 you can to S7...

Yes same latency settings in both. I'm not sure if I checked all of the items you mentioned above. I feel pretty comfortable that they were the same, but I could check again.

You sure you're running the Roland TD-12 brain in "Local Control Off" mode?

No I'm not. I remember setting it, but I don't remember what I set it to. I can check into that as well. I do have about 10 addtional triggers coming into the Roland brain from a yamaha brain. When I was having trouble in Sonar 7 a few weeks back, I bypassed the addtional input from the Yamaha brain and it didn't help.

Thanks for the suggestions. I now have several things to try when I get into the studio tonight.

Willy from Tech Support did some tests to determine if this was a general problem. We found no problems with MIDI timing on record. I'm posting his results here:

Basically we ran two different tests to try and reproduce this.

Test #1 – Record the MIDI out of a Roland TD drum module. In our test case I used a TD-6 kit.

1. Insert SD2 in project creating a MIDI track and First Synth Audio output
2. Set input of MIDI track to Edirol UA-1000 MIDI Omni
3. Enable audio metronome, set project tempo to 120
4. Arm MIDI track and hit record. Recorded about 32 measures
5. Playback project listening to tempo sync issues. None.
6. Insert TTS-1 and re-assigned MIDI track to TTS-1 Ch. 10
7. Playback project listening for tempo sync issues. None.
8. Repeat #1-7 with an SPS-66
9. Repeat Steps #1-8 at 160 BPM and 200 BPM

Test #2 – Record a MIDI Loop from another external device

The goal of this test was to validate the first test by ensuring that it wasn’t related to the TD-6 and that SONAR 8 isn’t having issues with MIDI timing during playback.

1. Set-up a second computer to play a 16 measure midi loop with sections of straight 16th and 32nd notes
2. Connect MIDI out of second computer to the MIDI in of first computer’s UA-1000.
3. Create both SD2 and TTS-1 tracks, record MIDI from Computer #2 for 64 measures
4. Stop transport and then playback MIDI, listening for timing dicrepancies.
5. Repeat steps #1-4 with SPS-66 on Computer #1
6. Repeats steps #1-5 at 160 and 200 BPM

In both tests SONAR 8 played back the recorded MIDI sequence without any timing discrepanices. Below are the specs of both computers used:

Computer #1 – The main computer

Windows XP SP3
Intel Xeon Dual Core x2 (Quad Core)
1.0 GB of RAM
Edirol UA-1000 (USB)
Cakewalk Power Studio 66 (FireWire)

Computer #2 – Used to send MIDI to Computer #1 in Test #2

Windows XP SP2
AMD 3200+
2.50 GB of RAM
Cakewalk Power Studio 66

Original: Noel Borthwick

Test #2 – Record a MIDI Loop from another external device
...
4. Stop transport and then playback MIDI, listening for timing dicrepancies.
...
In both tests SONAR 8 played back the recorded MIDI sequence without any timing discrepanices. Below are the specs of both computers used:

A listening test is pretty subjective. Did anyone examine the actual MIDI data as recorded by Computer #2? What kinds of timing variations were apparent in the Event List?

It might be useful to consider some kind of MIDI loopback test (where the MIDI DIN out is connected to the MIDI DIN input, and the MIDI DIN input is routed to a separate record-enabled track.
Then, create a test track containing "a 16 measure midi loop with sections of straight 16th and 32nd notes ".
Then, play the test track, and re-record it (via the MIDI loopback connection) onto a different track.
Then, compare the 2nd track to the first track.

Some timing variation is inevitable, given Windows handling of MIDI I/O. I'm curious about what you think is reasonable performance for a Windows-based system - and about how Sonar 8 performs vs. Sonar 7 (and if there are significant differences using Vista rather than XP, at this point).

Best,

Jim

Our drummer cancelled tonight, so I did some testing myself. Since I am not a drummer I recorded midi and audio with all of my tests so I could compare what was recorded (midi) with what I actually played, even though it was not very musical. I added the IgnoreMidiInTimeStamps = 0 line under [Options] in the Sonar 8 TTSSEQ.ini file. Same results - they didn't sync up. I switched to the Midisport 8X8 interface and still got the same results. I tried SD2 instead of BFD2, same thing, maybe worse. I played midi piano mapped to the TTS-1 (also compared to recorded audio file), same thing. All of this was in a project that was created in Sonar 6 (I believe), tracks added in Sonar 7 and now trying to rerecord drums in Sonar 8.

If I open up a new project in Sonar 8 and start a new recording, the audio and midi sync up, both piano and drum tests did OK. I can rerecord drums in the old project in Sonar 7 OK as long as the latency is set low. I tried deleting all of the old tracks in the project using Sonar 8 (not including the test tracks), and then rerecord the same tracks that I was just having problems with and the midi recording would sync up with audio. The problem seems to be with recording midi in Sonar 8 in a project with other tracks that was recorded in a previous version.

I guess another question would be if I will be able to record midi effectively in a Sonar 8 project that has a lot of tracks already added to it. I haven't tried that yet, and it will be quite a while before I get to that point.

Thanks for all of your comments. And thanks to Noel for the testing they did.

Wait, thats new information. You never mentioned that it only happens in that one specific project.
I don't believe that the problem could be as general as causing this in any S7 project or everyone would see it.
Please send the project file to tech support so they can analyze whats different.
Some things to try:
- Load the project in safe mode and strip out all the plugins. Then retest
- Check if you have accidentally added tempo changes to the project.
- If you have audio metronome enabled in the project turn it off and retest (switch to MIDI metronome)

My drummer has shipped me two midi files recorded from a TD12 brain into Sonar 7 and I insert them in Sonar 8 and trigger BFD2 no problem.

Don't forget in BFD2, if you are having latency / crackling etc when tracking, try to reduce detail on kit pieces to medium or less and select 16 bit mode. When you mix down you can increase detail and select 24 bit mode again.

Something I have found in both S7 and S8 is that Perfect Space (all my projects have Perfect Space on send bus) will cause really bad midi --> soft synth triggering latency. When I input monitor a midi keyboard playing along in real time, the latency is horrible, no matter what the audio latency settings are. So If I need reverb when tracking I replace Perfect Space with a Sonitus reverb and then add perfect space back in for mix down.

Just a thought.

Thats because PS has a built in latency that is quite high by default. As a result of delay compensation anything sent to a bus containing PS will be delayed by that amount. You can change that delay for PS by going into its property page and reducing its internal buffer size.

Quick question, your recording MIDI drums at a high latency setting to ensure that they are recorded properly.

You have input monitoring off, ie I am guessing that you are recording an audio input frmo the Drum Brain to act as a monitor, then either discarding this track (or you may not have even recorded it)

This suggest that you are using ASIO drivers as they will allow you to do Direct Monitoring while at high latencies.

So firstly can you record the audio input from the midi drums alongside the midi track Ie set it up so you have an audio track recording the drum output simultaneously with the midi.

Then enable audio snap on the audio and add audio transient to pool, you will then be able to compare the audio (heard Drums) to the midi and see if there is an offset like Jinga mentioned.

I think that this is an issue with the ASIO driver offset not pertaining to the midi. Ie if you record with direct monitoring on audio, the ASIO driver will playback audio in realtime and then offset the recorded audio for you so it automatically matches the source material. It may not be offsetting the midi (I am not even sure whether ASIO drivers will offset MIDI, and if it does, I guess you will need to use the MIDI input on your soundcard rather than an independant MIDI interface, otherwize how will it receive the offset info). So you will have heard a perfect take, but the MIDI playback is out.

This can be combated by shifting the entire midi track back so that it matchs the recorded audio track, you could further fine tune by snapping to the transient in pool from the recorded output of the drum brain, once your happy with the Midi playback you can then discard this 'monitoring' track.

The other thing to check is that you do not have input quantise accidently enabled on your midi track as it will attempt to quantise each midi note as its inputed, this also could cause the issues your experiencing.

I would definately record the audio output of the drum brain simulataneously next session (with input monitoring turned off) it will really help you trouble shoot.

Ooh final question are you monitorign by routing the drum brain into your Soundcard at all, or are you using the headphone socket on the drum brain (and routing an output from Sonar into the drum brains line in), I did this once, and it can also cause problems because again you would be able to record along perfectly, but the MIDI sent would be offset due to the high latency you were recording at. IN this situation the ASIO drivers can do nothing to offset, becuase they are actually excluded from the picture.

If you are expereiencing MIDI offset, there is a offset option somewhere in Sonar where you can manually enter offset value, this is for soundcards where the ASIO drivers are sending an inaccurate offset value, you might be able to play with this so thta you don't have to manually shift the midi track, just remember to turn it back when recording other sources.

Hope this helps focus you as to your issue, let us know how you got on.

Regards
Gordon

Regards

Regards

ORIGINAL: gordonrussell76

Quick question, your recording MIDI drums at a high latency setting to ensure that they are recorded properly.

?

j boy

Read the original post, he states he has the latency settings high to avoid clicks and pops.

I am responding to that.

Cheers

Gotcha. Maybe I'm missing something, but everybody records virtual instruments at the lowest possible latency. Obviously if you don't the lag makes playing/recording VI's in real time impossible. How is the OP ever going to make this work if he's recording at high latency setting?

Well there is actually another option

If your using ASIO drivers you can record at a very high latency using direct monitoring ie the signal of the audio that you are recording is split 1 is sent to Sonar and recorded the other goes direct to your monitoring therefore is unnafected by the latency. YOu listen to the monitor output and sonar records the other output and then offsets it by the amount that hte ASIO driver tells it.

When I am recording softsynths in a project that is alreayd mixed, ie adding somethign at a late stafe where its impossible to record at low latency I get round it by setting up a MIDI track and a Audio track, I then use a Keyboard with a soudn similar to the MIDI sound I am planning on using and use the hardware generated sound as my monitor. ONce I have the part down, I can lose the audio input and just keep the MIDI track and point that at a Softsynth.

I do the same when recording midi drums from a electronic drum kit, I take an audio feed frmo the drum brain and use that via direct monitoring as my Monitor, however i simultaneously record the midi input as well. This is so that I can either re-sample the beat using a Softsynth, or I can then use the midi track to re-trigger my drum brain to get seperatino. My brain only outputs in stereo, so what I do is split the midi track into kick snare cymbals etc and re-trigger the drum brain so i get seperate audio for each kit part, this helps when it comes to mixing the drums.

I think the OP has been using a similar technique and that is where his issue lies, either beucase he has not been doing it quite right, or becuase his asio driver isnot handling it well.

Hope that clears it up

ps
Recording audio and midi simultaneously is a good habit to get into. If you planning on using MIDI only having the audio can provide useful quantise info for audio snapping purposes, and if your only planning on using the audio input, having a midi track recorded can be useful at mix if you decide you want to layer in a trigged kick sample underneath the recorded drum for extra impact, its there waiting to be used.

just another thought.

Wow, that sounds terribly convoluted! I'm using a laptop that is quite slow by current standards, but I can easily record V-drums at 2-3 ms latency setting as long as I do a couple of things. One, I set BFD to 16 bit mode and 20 velocity layers or so. Two, I untick all of the effects in my fx bins. I can track V-drums in tight timing to the previously recorded project audio tracks (including metronome if desired), monitoring the BFD output in real time. Then for mixing, I jack the latency setting up to 25-50 ms and re-enable all plugins, set BFD to full layers and 24 bit, etc. Good to go!

All that my V-drum brain is sending out to my DAW is MIDI...

When I first started this project, I had Sonar 4 or Sonar 6 and had a Musical Computers 3.2 hypertheading DAW. I have a seperate mixing board and headphone phone and external effects that I use during recording for monitoring only. I set it up this way so that I would never have to use input monitoring if the track count and plug in count got too high where necessary buffer adjustments hinder musical performances. I got used to working this way. I now have a nice quad core box, but still usually don't use input monitoring. For keyboards I use onboard sounds that will be similar to what I will use in the mix. I am able to send an audio signal to the mixer as well as midi or digital converted audio (depending on what I am working on) to the computer at the same time. With the mixer and outboard effects I can get effective monitoring for recording performances. ex: direct feed from the TD-12 to the mixer, hardware reverbs for vocals, Pod Pro for guitars, etc. With this method, I thought that I would always be safe with a high audio latency setting. For audio, it works fine. For midi, after tracks and plugins build up, that is where the midi recording timing is off. The fix in Sonar 7 was to lower the audio latency to just above the threshhold of clicks and pops and it would tighten up the midi recording. I can live with that. The problem is that that doesn't work for Sonar 8. Many times I do record the audio as well as the midi performances for drums and main piano recordings. It does leave more options open as well as verify the integrity of the midi recording. Noel has given me some more things to try for my next session, so we'll see how it goes.

Again thanks to Cakewalk and the community for responding. It is helping to give me a better understanding of the issue.

Introdspect, you might want to consider getting a soundcard that has ASIO drivers and direct monitoring capability. The souncard acts like your mixer in providing you with a direct latency free monitoring signal, but the drivers work out the latency offset and automatically correct it for you.

Have a look at the Motu 828 mk3 it also has built in effects that you can use for monitoring, so you could achieve exactly the same as your current set up, but without the problems your currently expereiencing.

Jboy, well good for you, heaven forbid that recording techniques should be convoluted, someone might create something interesting that way.

When you get a high track count project with 30-40 plugins on it, and then someone wants to lay down an additional softsynth part, you'll understand the practicality of what I am suggesting.

Or conversely just keep you mind closed nicely shut.

My sound card does have ASIO drivers and direct monitoring capability. It is an RME HDSP 9652. 24 channels in ADAT, 24 channels out ADAT. This is generally a very well respected sound card.

Introspect, I am not suggesting that your soundcard was not good enough. just that you use its Direct monitoring capability to monitor rather than your mixer, becuase then it will automatically correct hte latency.

You could still send you direct out from the soundcard via your mixer and add the effects there. Just a thoguhts

And we have a winner.

Drum roll please... (arh arh)

- If you have audio metronome enabled in the project turn it off and retest (switch to MIDI metronome)

I opened my test project tonight and got our drummer to play with the audio metronome on, recording audio and midi using the TD-12 drum module and midi mapping to Session Drummer 2 in Sonar 8. Playback revealed that they weren't synced up. I switched the metronome to midi (I didn't assign a sound) and recorded audio and midi, and playback revealed that they were in snyc. I repeated both of these tests again and got the same results. So apparently the audio metronome in Sonar 8 was the culprit.

Oh and thanks again to Noel for the suggestions and ultimately the solution.

You could still send you direct out from the soundcard via your mixer and add the effects there. Just a thoguhts

That is what I do. Thanks for weighing in on this topic.

Listening to the audio metronome should not be a problem while tracking a live MIDI instrument as long as you are playing back at the a very low latency. i.e if the drummer is playing to a click that is delayed then the entire part will be recorded late as compared to the project. I don't know why you couldn't slide it after the fact to fix it though. could the drummer have been trying to compensate while playing somehow?

My last test simply compared the recorded audio from the drum brain and the recorded midi mapped to Session Drummer 2 that was recorded from the same performance. Soloing those 2 tracks together revealed that they were not in sync with each other when recorded with the audio metronome, but when recorded with the midi metronome selected, the 2 tracks sounded like one performance.

So now I am confused.

On 10-15 Noel wrote

- If you have audio metronome enabled in the project turn it off and retest (switch to MIDI metronome)

ON 10-17 Noel wrote:

Listening to the audio metronome should not be a problem while tracking a live MIDI instrument as long as you are playing back at the a very low latency.

ORIGINAL: gordonrussell76

Jboy, well good for you, heaven forbid that recording techniques should be convoluted, someone might create something interesting that way.

When you get a high track count project with 30-40 plugins on it, and then someone wants to lay down an additional softsynth part, you'll understand the practicality of what I am suggesting.

Or conversely just keep you mind closed nicely shut.

gordonrussell76, you're not really that snarky are you... or just having a bad day?

J boy

Sometimes yes I am that Sarky, sorry, I guess its just on forums sometimes I wander, we are all supposed to be creative people, but the amount of times you hear the following.

" I have yet to have the imagination or need to use functionality like you are describing, however i will weigh in with my ill informed opinion and say that becuase i don't need it no-one else will"

I tend to find that frustrating and unhelpful, mind you me being sarky about it is hardly an exlempary behaviour either, so my apologies.

Regards
Gordon