Sonar 2.2 & Tascam FW-1884 sync problems?

Hey all,
I see someone else asked a similar question over a month ago and got no replies. Anybody else have this experience now?
I just got this FW-1884 yesterday morning and it seems great... if I could just get it all working! I had it going pretty well on my old Dell Pentium III 550 in Sonar 2.2, but really got it to use with my new VAIO laptop, Pentium 4M 2.2 GHz. Everything looks to be set up fine on this computer, but there seems to be a sync problem. When I record, the result is off by a random small amount, different every time. I tried singing a dorky little vocal ditty and adding a harmony, but the second track would be off. I tried setting up a metronome (out of the 1884 via MIDI port 1 into a keyboard, audio from the keyboard going back into the mixer) and recording it, only to find it out of sync. I tried recording several tracks of the metronome, and it came out slightly different every time.
Is this a latency problem or what? Tascam says it's zero latency monitoring, but a lot of good that does you if you never know where the audio's gonna end up when you record it!
Clock set-up seems simple enough. 1884 set to internal, 44.1 Hz, Sonar set to audio Sync, and 44.1 Hz.
Any ideas?

Damn if I don't have the same problem...Question-Did you not have the sync problem on the old Dell Pentium III? or did you only notice it when you started with the new lap top?

I have tried messing with the quick start option in the FW control panel with no luck and there is no consistency on how much out of sync the tracks are. I've also found that when recording multiple tracks, some would be in sync and others not.

Really a bummer because this unit has some serious potential. The good news is that its version 1 drivers and it can only get better. For now, I am zooming in on the clip and cutting off the beginning silence and the realign the clips, which is a pain.

To add to the confusion, I do still have my delta 1010 installed on my computer but I have the drivers disabled in Sonar.
The next step for me is to completely remove that card (1010), drivers and references in the AUD.INI and try reinstalling the FW drivers. I don’t think this will help, I still think it’s driver related but I do think it’s important to eliminate other possible variables.

Hey,
It's good that there's at least two of us. We can narrow this down a bit, and then I'll pester Tascam on the phone until someone talks to me.

I only noticed the problem when I moved to the laptop. I'll go back to the desktop and check again. But I did slap down 5 or 6 tracks of guitars, bass and vocals, so I would have noticed. I didn't try multiple tracks at once on the laptop - I can't believe you're finding different tracks that you record at the same time out of sync! That's horrible! I was figuring at least live recording would work out.

Another key difference I didn't mention before - the desktop is Windows 2000, the laptop is XP. What about yours?
Do you have a 4 or 6 pin firewire port on your computer? The Sony laptop of course only has the 4 pin, and Tascam "recommends" using 6. I assume on a desktop you've got the 6 pin, so that'd rule out that problem when I talk to support.

The desktop also has a Tascam PCI-822 card installed. Same as you, I left it in, but with the drivers off in Sonar. So I doubt the soundcard is your problem. By the way, the Quick Start panel is very important. On the desktop machine when things were working, if an input or output I was using at the time wasn't quick start enabled, there was a stutter when stopping or starting recording or payback. It was smooth if quick start was checked. So to save resources and keep things smooth, it looks like the thing to do is open and close the 1884 control panel as you enable and disable recording on individual tracks.

Randy

I am running Windows 2000 and using Sonar 3 but the issue was the same w/2.2.
I do have a 6 pin firewire port, it’s an Orangelink.

It seems to me that the Quick start option was an afterthought on Tascam’s part. More of a quick fix to a deeper routed problem, which I believe is what we are encountering. (Way back my delta 1010 had similar issues with the early version of their drivers as far as a stutter when playback started)

Here’s what I’ve learned based on trial & error:
1. When recording, enabling quick start on outputs, causes a late start on all tracks. This did not change whether inputs were enabled in quick start or not. I will only enable quick start on outputs when mixing or editing.
2. Can’t tell a difference when quick start for inputs is enabled. For both of these tests I tried various selections of ins /outs including checking all.
3. Inputs 1&2 seem to always be in sync except when quick start is enabled on outputs. I’m guessing when you recorded 5 or 6 tracks of guitars, bass and vocals on the desktop; it was using inputs 1&2.
4. Out of curiosity, I changed the playback timing and recording master in Sonar to different sources including SPDF ins. No change.

So basically I know not much more than before…back to the drawing board.

I have a FW1884 also, what are you using for your timing and playback master? I am using sonar 3 with 1028MB P4 and 6 pin Fire Wire. I am usnig the WDM drivers, what are you getting for latency? I can only get 46ms
What do you have the latency set on for SOnar and the FW1884

Right now I have FW1884 Analog 1:2 as the play back and record timing master. I am working with 18.9 latency (the Buffer Size slider will go as low as 1.5 w/FW-1884), if I go lower I sometimes get dropouts. With my Delta 1010 I worked with 11.6 msec latency (low as 10.2). I have a Pentium III, 512 ram,Seagate Cheetah SCSI Audio drive. I have the audio latency set at 64 on the FW-1884 control panel although the manual recommends setting it higher (1024-2048). Setting it higher causes distortion in playback. My average projects have 8 to 16 tracks of audio with an eq or compressor plugin on each track, 2 aux sends for reverb/delay and a few midi tracks.

I was able to replicate the problem with my metronome test on my Windows 2000 desktop machine after all, but was able to get it fixed by playing with buffers and latency. Even when I was still having trouble with the click track, I took one of the delayed click tracks, and recorded 7 vocal tracks on top making silly rhythmic noises, and they all lined up together, and with the click. So I don't know why, but the audio seems to work okay on my pentium III 550, 392 RAM, Windows 2000 machine with Sonar 2.2, a Tascam PCI-822 card installed but drivers off in Sonar, GigaStudio's service running in the background. Sounds a lot like your setup, marcoR.
So now I'm going back to trying the same mucking around on my laptop, pentium IV-M 2.2GHz, Windows Xp.

So my big question, that doesn't seem to be answered anywhere on here:

Is anyone happily using the Tascam FW-1884?! What's your system, in detail?

I'm not sure of this because I was merely scanning the threads; but see if this works.

1.) Don't put FW-1884 on INTERNAL sync. Make sure the DAW/Sonar is the master. I did notice that someone said you have it on Audio Sync; which is correct...as far as I know.

2.) Definitely use ONLY 1 Digital Audio interface. I had looked very closely at the FW-1884 at a local Gtr. Ctr., thinking I could use my Aardvark Q10 as a drum sub mixer via the S/PDIF and the rep told me I would be ill-advised to try to maintain 2 different drivers. I would consider installing maybe a 3-port FierWire card in the PC just in case you need to rec'v a Video signal.

I'd be really interested to see if those fix your problem; cuz I'm still in the market for a controller. I'm leaning a little bit closer to the O1X; but still not completely decided.

Good Luck,
King Conga

Interesting. I've got the FW1884 on a 2.4 Ghz, P4 and an ASUS mbo. It's pretty solid and no such delay problems. All tracks record pretty much in synch. I did have a problem when i installed Soundforge 7.0 as it seemed to hog the drivers if I started that first.

I now start Sonar first and everything works fine.

King Conga,
Funny you mention using your Aardvark Q10 as a drum sub mixer via the S/PDIF because that was my exact intention for my Delta 1010. If it wasn't for the sync issue it seemed it would have worked. I did try it and the delta recorded fine though the S/PDIF of the FW-1884 (delta drivers disabled in sonar/delta does work as a stand alone) and the sync delay was the same as inputs 3-8 on the FW. I have since abandoned the idea at least till I can resolve the issue at hand.

Removing my delta 1010 and drivers was the last thing I wanted to try but is the next step.

Don't get me wrong, yes the audio sync issue sucks but I'm sure the next version of drivers will resolve it if I can't figure a work around.
As far as a control surface for Sonar it absolutely kicks ass. All that is missing is eq support for the ultra funk eq and its there.(it does support cakewalk FX EQ beautifully)
I've been a dedicated cakewalk user since 6.00 and the FW-1884 is what I've been waiting for. As soon as the FE-8's are out I'm getting 4 of em!

didger,
what changes did you make to latency? did you make them in sonar or the audio latency slider in the FW-1884 control panel?
what do you have each set to?
I'm at 18.9 in sonar and 64 in FW control panel...

On the desktop, I had the 1884 control panel set to 512 (and then ran Sonar's wave profiler to make sure it sets all the buffers in there to match), and had Sonar's latency down to the fast side, which got to around 17ms. It seemed to be going pretty well.
But similar settings in my laptop produce the random offset recordings.
I'm really wondering if this is related to latency or not. I be boggled.

Hey marcoR,
You said you're using the FW-1884 with Sonar 3. Does everything work on there, and it is it easy to figure out and setup? I just got my 3 upgrade in the mail but wasn't going to upgrade until Tascam released drivers for 3, but if it's working for you, I'll go for it. Since I'm having this trouble with 2.2, I figure it can't hurt.
Randy

Yes all the control surface functions are still supported, there is nothing lost.
By the way I did remove my delta1010 drivers/card and it still doesn't work...Really frustrated about audio and the midi ports suck too. I hope we don't have to wait 6 months for new drivers. On the "Gear" forum there are some guys raving about how great the FW-1884 has been to work with. No such luck for us...Guess its time to call tascam.

marcoR,

So, do I understand that NOTHING is working now? Not to try to appear that God's gift to Geeks, AT ALL, but did anyone try the suggestions I made. I didn't see any remarks regarding that. That syncing issue really doesn't seem like one they would've released it with still lingering; especially on one of the industry stnd apps like Sonar. Also, I can't remember if any threads or reviews I've read say whether or not it runs softsynth controls. Does it? I'm waiting anxiously for SampleTank2 L to get here Mon.; so it'll be awhile before I can afford to get either that or the Yamaha O1X. Has anyone heard/seen any reviews of that piece on Sonar?

King Conga

King Conga,

I did try your suggestions and a lot of variations.
Apparently there are a few that are not having this issue and are having success with the tascam.

I am suspicious that those that are having success are not trying to sync audio to midi.

Also I may be describing the problem wrong...The issue is a few msec of silence being recorded prior to the actual audio. Cutting of the silence and realigning the clip back to 1 will bring it all back in sync.

Exception is; tracks 1-2 record correctly without the beginning silence, all other tracks have it.

Hey there,

I'll share my adventure....

Months ago, I lucked out and found a 1884 at the Guitar Center here
and bought it immediately (knowing how hard they were to come by).
Anyhow...I experienced the exactly thing you describe with the WDM
drivers. The ASIO drivers seemed to work good except for the increase
CPU strain, no application sharing and a nagging problem of a lag in
starting and stopping.

Tascam was NO, let me repeat, NO help. I spoke on the phone to
sevral people who had no idea what the unit was, let alone how to
troubleshoot it....the last guy was at least honest and said he'd
never touched one!

A guy at rec.audio.pro gave me the name of some folks at Frontier
and they were fantastic. They asked me intelligent questions and actually
seemed interested in fixing the drivers. They made a code change
to the ASIO drivers and emailed to me to fix the lag....fantastic. But,
I had no firm date given on the WDM fix, so I bailed and returned the
unit while I was still in the 30 day refund period.

It's a really nice surface, though....totally pro feeling...nice weighed
jog wheel and large transport (great for my fat fingers)!

Long story short...skip Tascam and call Frontier!

JAY

Thank you very much!

Do you still have a copy of the drivers they emailed you?

Or how to contact them?

Hook us up...

Ummm... there's ASIO drivers? I thought it was just WDM. Shows what I know. Hmmph.

Could you pass on the Frontier contact info or do you not have it anymore?

I just upgraded to Sonar 3, still am having slight trouble when working with MIDI, but happily recorded a short MIDI-free song, just 4 tracks for 1 minute. Did a lot of takes on one track and didn't notice any problems just working with audio. But if I was trying to use the metronome MIDI, I'm sure it would be all messed up.

But, after my brief successful recording experience, I'm pretty confident that the thing'll be great when we're past 1.0 drivers. I had made a promise before never to get anything at 1.0. Bah.

Hey guys,

I'm not at my home PC, so I don't have their
direct emails (I'm not sure if they want me
posting them anyway).

I can't give copies of the drivers out, sorry.
I promised them I wouldn't proliferate them,
it was totally beta straight from the developer,
no QA, just to get me going. They treated me so
well, I owe 'em!

Here's the general info from the website:
Frontier Design Group
240 Mechanic Street
Lebanon, NH 03766 USA
phone 1-800-928-3236 or 603-448-6283

If you get to tech support I'm sure it'll be the
same guys...I think their names were Brian and
Barry.

JAY

That was me that posted a month ago and got no response. The problem disappeared when I reverted to MME. It seems that there is a glitch in the tascam that doesn't talk to SONAR 3 right when you use WDM. So, I am sucking more space and using MME and it works beautifully.

I just tried the MME drivers in Windows XP and had the exact same problem as with WDM. Tim, are you on Windows 2000?

But, as Jay described, the ASIO drivers seem to have better timing, but massive dropout problems. So since my problem description matches his, I'm really hopeful for the ASIO fix from Frontier! Their voicemail says email support@frontierdesign.com for fastest response. Marco, if you haven't bugged them yet, I'd be happy to forward the fix to you, so that we don't make them uncomfortable about passing around so many unofficial beta copies.

Randy

They haven't got back to me yet...
Yes please send me the fix.
marco@arismls.com
MME didn't work for me either.

They haven't got back to me yet either. I was just offering in case you hadn't written them yet, thinking that maybe we were better off if they didn't have multiple people asking.

opps...Maybe we should have got together on that plan before we went off stiring up a bunch of muck w/frontier tech support.

Yep! Whoops! I did that make an ass out of you and me thing, and assumed you'd have written a post like I did. I've still been trying to call, anyway. Nobody's answering.

Okay, I actually reached Brian on the phone. He says that they can't give out the new drivers and only allowed a few lucky folks to test certain bits at a time, BUT they are almost done with a new release including fixes for WDM and ASIO, plus more support for Mackie HUI emulation and maybe some other new bits. He _thinks_ they'll send it to Tascam the beginning of next week, then it'll be up to Tascam to post it for us to download.

So this is cautionary good news. It may be just another week that I have a nearly worthless $1200 piece of gear in my studio!

Please don't anyone else bug Frontier for another week. ;-)

I couldn't even get mine to install. Halfway through the install process I got an error message that Tascam tech had never seen. They were quite condescending, letting me know that "audio programs" were quite sensitive and required Windows to be in a rather pristine state in order for the software to install cleanly. Thus, they recommended wiping my hard drive and reinstalling Windows. I in turn told them that I had a LOT of "audio programs" in my system, that it works just fine, and that I was not in fact installing any "audio programs" at all - just a set of frickin drivers. I thanked them for their expert help, hung up, and promptly returned the FW-1884. Shame, I really wanted it to work

I got my 1884 up and running. So far I have discovered the EQ knobs are not controlling the EQ enabled in any of the tracks in my song. They are supposed to be mapped to the Cakewalk fxEQ. I even tried doing a remote control with the EQ knobs. After assigning an EQ knob to a parameter, Sonar responded but not correctly. For instance, when I move the gain knob (or encoder as Tascam calls it) it would only cycle between full gain and no gain, nothing inbetween. All the knobs reacted this way to all the EQ parameters. I shouldn't have to try any remote control set up anyway. Tascam says they are supposed to be mapped to Sonars EQ. I'm disappointed. BTW I'm using Sonar 3.

The eq works just fine in Sonar 3 for me! Sheesh, everybody's got a different problem. The only thing that confused me about the eq was that the frequency nob didn't do anything on a selected band until I had done something with the gain nob.
At the moment, now knowing that there should be official, non-beta drivers out next week that have been in development for a few months, I'm inclined to say it's not even worth turning this unit on until the new drivers are installed. No unit works for all users and systems at version 1.0, and it's not worth the hassle to try with a revision right around the corner.
I for one intend to relax and do this weekend's recording project hopefully as one last goodbye to my analog console. And cross my fingers, hoping that I only bought this board one week too early rather a year and half, like when I got Tascam's PCI-822!