Help me w/ Tempo changes via whole song without changing audio tracks' tempo

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Shadeline
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2009/03/28 05:54:24 (permalink)

Help me w/ Tempo changes via whole song without changing audio tracks' tempo

I have a song written and want to change the tempo without changing the audio tracks' tempo.

When I go to delete about 8 tempo changes from the instrumental of the song, the audio files change also. Is there a way to prevent these audio files from changing tempo? I have never setup audiosnap on these tracks, yet Sonar wants to change tempo when I delete the tempo. When Sonar changes tempo, its timing is off on the audio tracks by a few milliseconds which in this song does not need. The singers / audio tracks need to be on time, and not changed. If I wanted to move them around, I know I can split the audio files and move them to the location needed.

Does anyone know how I can prevent Sonar Producer 8.3.1 from changing the tempo or any change to my audio files while I delete and modifiy the tempos thru tempo view?

I have tried to select only the midi files I want to change / delete tempos on, but that does not work. The way I do tried that was to hold control down and left click on each track that I want to change tempo on .. but like I said it did not work that way.

Any suggestions will help greatly.


Thank you so much for your time in reading this question.
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19 Replies Related Threads

    kwgm
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    RE: Help me w/ Tempo changes via whole song without changing audio tracks' tempo 2009/03/28 15:50:23 (permalink)
    What you're describing doesn't happen in Sonar, at least not by default.

    When you change the project Tempo, Sonar doesn't rebounce the audio clips to that tempo.

    Sonar will change the Ruler and display in the Track View, but you should expect this... For instance, say you have an audio clip with a length of two measures in a project with a Tempo of 60. If you change the tempo to 120 for the project, the clip will remain the same, (play it and listen), but will now extend 4 measures instead of two, since the tempo is twice as fast.

    Maybe you're confused by how Tempo works? In a Sonar project, there is no Project Tempo, there is only The Tempo. Each tempo setting in the Tempo View defines the tempo for Now Time. It's a little like driving at the speed limit. You see a speed limit sign, you look down at your display to see if you're driving at the current speed limit, call it 50mph. You see the next sign says 65 mph, so you speed up to 65. You drive a few miles until the next sign, which says 40 -- you slow down to 40. Sonar doesn't care what the speed (Tempo) "used to be", it only cares about the Now.

    Measures and MIDI follow the tempo, not audio -- unless you rebounce the clip using an Fx (like Process / Fit To Time).

    --kwgm
    #2
    Shadeline
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    RE: Help me w/ Tempo changes via whole song without changing audio tracks' tempo 2009/03/28 19:47:51 (permalink)
    is there a way to make it not change the ruler of the audio tracks?
    #3
    kwgm
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    RE: Help me w/ Tempo changes via whole song without changing audio tracks' tempo 2009/03/28 21:31:54 (permalink)
    Well yes if you change the time signature, but I don't think you want to play in 4/8.

    Think about my example above and you'll realize that if you want the audio to last the same amount of measures when you change the tempo, then you have to re-bounce the audio at the new tempo.

    The simple facts are:

    A 4-beat measure at 60 bpm is 4 seconds long, using a 4/4 time sig.

    A 4-beat measure at 120 is twice as fast, so runs half as long, 2 seconds, when a quarter note gets one beat.

    So what is it you really want to do?


    --kwgm
    #4
    ...wicked
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    RE: Help me w/ Tempo changes via whole song without changing audio tracks' tempo 2009/03/28 21:49:51 (permalink)
    Yah, unless you're using groove clips, I think you're seeing it wrong.

    When you change tempos and have regular audio clips, the clips do not change at all, but everything else around it does. So, yes the time ruler will be different, but that's because you changed it. A beat has a different time value at a different tempo. That's why your timing is off when you muck with the tempo. Kind of obvious when you think about it.

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    #5
    middleaudio
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    RE: Help me w/ Tempo changes via whole song without changing audio tracks' tempo 2009/03/28 22:10:40 (permalink)
    I'm not sure if I understand you problem exactly, but what I think you are needing to do is change the time base of your audio clips to be "absolute time" as opposed to MBT or the MIDI. Select the audio clips in question and then in the clip properties change their "Time Base" to absolute time. After that, make your tempo changes and see if that gets you where you want.

    Time Base
    Choose one of the two options in this section to control what happens to a locked clip when you change the tempo:

    Musical (M:B:T)--if the clip is set to the Musical time base, the clip's M:B:T position stays constant, and its Absolute position shifts.
    Absolute--if the clip is set to the Absolute time base, its Absolute position stays constant, and its M:B:T position shifts.


    I actually wish there was a global option to set this default to "Absolute" instead of "M:B:T". Most times this is what I have to do to avoid shifting audio clips when adjusting the tempo map after the fact.
    #6
    partial2strings
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    RE: Help me w/ Tempo changes via whole song without changing audio tracks' tempo 2009/03/31 23:52:11 (permalink)
    Unless every clip starts at the very beginning, if you change tempo they will shift relative to each other. This freaked me big time. You can lock the clips to keep them from shifting. I think sonar is this way because of a looping design mindset (rex files etc.). For those of us who work in mostly audio, think linearly, and use the DAW like a tape machine, its terrifying that a slight alteration of the tempo doesnt just shift the grid, the clips might move by such a small amount relative to each other that you might not catch it immediately. I frequently like to record without a click. I will later use tempo changes to make a grid that matches the performance to make the project organized (sane). If you have various overdubs here and there in the performance they will shift relative to each other if you change the tempo and dont lock them first. I wish there was a preference where all audio clips are always locked unless you unlock them, including a warning..... DANGER, DANGER ALL YOUR HARD WORK IS ABOUT TO BE DESTROYED
    #7
    jamjar
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    RE: Help me w/ Tempo changes via whole song without changing audio tracks' tempo 2009/04/01 01:56:25 (permalink)
    I've been wondering the same question for ages now - how can I temporarily change the tempo of the song without screwing up the audio?

    The reason I'd like to do this is so I can record some fast MIDI parts at a slower tempo. What I'd like to do is mute the audio tracks, change the tempo, record the MIDI part, then change back to normal tempo and have the song go back to normal.

    However, whenever I've changed the tempo Sonar seems to make some drastic changes to the entire project (I seem to even recall instances of obvious audio-processing). I then get scared and immediately hit the undo button.
    #8
    Kalle Rantaaho
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    RE: Help me w/ Tempo changes via whole song without changing audio tracks' tempo 2009/04/01 04:36:40 (permalink)
    I've never seen this happen. I sometimes import a CD-track to copy the chords or something. I then change the tempo of the project to roughly match that of the imported audio. I do it first just visually matching the transients to the bar-lines. Nothing has ever happened to the audio when I've played with the tempo.

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    #9
    partial2strings
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    RE: Help me w/ Tempo changes via whole song without changing audio tracks' tempo 2009/04/02 04:25:13 (permalink)
    If all your audio starts at zero on the timeline no shift will happen. If you overdub a harmony part on the 3rd verse you wouldnt start recording at zero, maybe a measure before the third verse. If you then change the tempo, the overdubbed part will shift in relation to the original track you are overdubbing to unless you lock it. I wish Sonar had a default mode where audio clips would NEVER shift in relation to each other unless unlocked, not the other way around.

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    #10
    Vovchik
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    RE: Help me w/ Tempo changes via whole song without changing audio tracks' tempo 2009/04/02 09:05:58 (permalink)
    Select all audio clips, press Alt+Enter. Switch "Time Base" to Absolute and check "Lock". After all your tempo changes uncheck "Lock".

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    #11
    Toddskins
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    RE: Help me w/ Tempo changes via whole song without changing audio tracks' tempo 2009/07/17 02:05:00 (permalink)
    My google search brought me to this thread, which taught me something, but since I am using Sonar v.3, was not much help on how to resolve the same problem the others had. For example, I cannot select audio clips and force them to absolute time. I think this feature must have come after v.3

    But I found a solution that will help these others:

    I was deleting some audio out of an introduction (too long), and then selecting all the other audio to the right of the deleted space and shifting it LEFT to fill up the blank spot. Many of my audio clips were now out of place, just like the issue described above.

    My Tempo events were a leftover from the MIDI tracks I had started with, and were now, kinda no longer needed. But to avoid the headache of moving dozens of audio clips by so many ticks, and experimenting with all the mess (again!), you just need to do the following.

    SOLUTION: I went into Tempo View, clicked the button for Tempo List, and modified all the Tempo changes in the list to be exactly 6 measures less than they were before, to agree with the amount of audio space I had deleted and then shifted. This did the trick.
    post edited by Toddskins - 2009/07/17 02:06:06
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    runningonair
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    Re: RE: Help me w/ Tempo changes via whole song without changing audio tracks' tempo 2014/06/21 12:20:28 (permalink)
     A lot of misunderstandings here.  essentially if you start with clips that you don't know the tempo of and do a complex arrangement the "midi" tempo is irrelevant as all you are doing is playing back recordings.  That is until you decide to add a midi part.  Then you need to work out what the actual tempo is.  That's when you find the clips move around when you change tempo. 
     
    But changing time base does appear to be the answer.  What I wanted to add is that you need to do the same under the track, automation - time base in order to preserve the automation timing.  Hope that's of help to someone.

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    #13
    Cactus Music
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    Re: RE: Help me w/ Tempo changes via whole song without changing audio tracks' tempo 2014/06/22 01:24:38 (permalink)
    You realize you just responded to a thread started 5 years ago! 
     

    Johnny V  
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    #14
    Elvenking71
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    Re: RE: Help me w/ Tempo changes via whole song without changing audio tracks' tempo 2016/05/02 23:54:18 (permalink)
    Cactus Music
    You realize you just responded to a thread started 5 years ago! 
     


    And it still wasn't answered. 
    #15
    Cactus Music
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    Re: RE: Help me w/ Tempo changes via whole song without changing audio tracks' tempo 2016/05/03 19:36:11 (permalink)
    I thought it was answered very clearly by kwgm.

    Johnny V  
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    #16
    Elvenking71
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    Re: RE: Help me w/ Tempo changes via whole song without changing audio tracks' tempo 2016/05/03 19:59:14 (permalink)
    I want to change tempo without affecting the audio tracks. I do not want any of the timing of the audio clips to change at all. I just want the same tracks in the same positions to run under a new tempo. The tempo was never right in the first place. There are reasons for that which are beyond my control. I don't want to reapply effects, bounce and rebuild my project just because I want to change tempo...and no matter how many times I read this I do not see a step by step to attaining my goal. I'm in Sonar X3.
     
    All the clips were trimmed and adjusted under the wrong tempo. (It just didn't matter at first I guess to whomever started the project). So now I am left with correcting the tempo issue. It's not a show stopper though. If it is gong to be hell to fix it...then oh well. 
    post edited by Elvenking71 - 2016/05/03 20:26:57
    #17
    Cactus Music
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    Re: RE: Help me w/ Tempo changes via whole song without changing audio tracks' tempo 2016/05/04 13:00:05 (permalink)
    We all work differently, The people who make Cakewalk ( or any DAW) cannot cover every possible scenario but they do a pretty good job of trying.
    Some people only work with live recordings of real instruments. The tempo is set and it's a pain to change the tempo with audio. Your morphing the the waveform and this can only result in lowering the quality of your carefully engineered recording. You CAN change the tempo of an audio recording but this is not accomplished without some damage to the track. It might be insignificant damage, but myself I would only do this to lesser important tracks that are buried in a mix, I would never do this to my important audio tracks.
     
    So I always start with midi and a few scratch audio parts until I am dead sure of the tempo. Then once this is for sure I start my serious audio recordings.
     
    There are a few ways to change audio tempo that are well documented in the help files and tutorials so I won't even attempt them here. A few answers above touched on it.
     
     

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    #18
    Elvenking71
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    Re: RE: Help me w/ Tempo changes via whole song without changing audio tracks' tempo 2016/05/05 01:11:34 (permalink)
    Yeah, it's okay. I am on to a project I am starting next so it'll be in the past soon. I'll just deal with it the way it is. thanks for taking the time to explain though. I appreciate.
    #19
    Yish30067
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    Re: RE: Help me w/ Tempo changes via whole song without changing audio tracks' tempo 2018/04/07 08:19:18 (permalink)
    i know its old but the answer was given by
    Vovchik
    Select all audio clips, press Alt+Enter. Switch "Time Base" to Absolute and check "Lock". After all your tempo changes uncheck "Lock".



     
    Alt-Enter did nothing for me but looking at the clip properties inspector after selecting all audio clips, i changed the time-base to absolute and boom!, tempo changed, audio stayed put.
     
     
    #20
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