Before I upgrade to v8 and 8.5 I need advice from experts with Automation Envelopes

Hi,

I've been using Sonar 6.2 up untill now, but I struggle with automation envelopes and the way everything is designed here. I wonder if Sonar 8 or 8.5 has been improved in this regard.

Firstly, here's an example of how much automation data I can work with. The following example is produced by Alchemy with its Remix pads:
http://img242.imageshack....982/automationmaze.jpg



There is no way in Sonar 6.2 to hide certain Synth envelopes. They can be hidden or shown  in bulk only. This really slows my session a lot, with all the zooming in and out. And even then it's not plain sailing, see the next point... 

One of my main problems has been node selection. This image explains it:

http://img188.imageshack..../8669/editingnodes.jpg


Any info about any improvements and real life observation, especially from those who use lots of automation is greatly appreciated.

Given your propensity for heavy automation (which I can relate to) I would urge you to try manual rather than recorded automation. That is, placing envelopes with the mouse directly rather than recording control movements. This will greatly reduce the number of nodes - at no cost to fine control - and make it much easier to select individual nodes.

Second, if you're having trouble grabbing the right envelope/node, use the maximize button. There are many times when I have two envelopes that are so close together that when I click on one the other gets selected. Maximize it, and suddenly they are miles apart.

I'm surprised you can't hide selected envelopes in S6. I thought I was doing that back at S5, but I could very well be mistaken about that. Well, it's a good excuse to upgrade!

I want to answer specific points, but the new quoting system leaves me baffled. So here goes my custom quote system.


Hi Rodar6,

Quote
When you say that you can't hide certain Synth envelopes, which ones are they?

Synth Automation envelopes. Sonar can toggle these on or off, I mean show or hide in bulk. So in my example, I can't solo one envelope to work on it. If Sonar had automation lanes it would be easy, but in my opinion automation lanes may not be needed if Sonar allowed to 'solo' the currently selected envelope. By 'solo' I mean, it would hide all automation envelopes but the one currently selected.

Quote:
From looking at some of your pics I can see that you've written the envelopes either by free hand or with a rotary. After I do this I tend to go back over it and delete the nodes which have no real effect on the transient grade. This cleans things up alot for myself.

These automation envelopes were written by tweaking control on Alchemy's GUI, in this example, Alchemy's remix pads and performance knobs. Now, your suggestion to go back and delete individual nodes is logical enough, that's what I have to do anyway, but it is extremely time consuming. There ought to be a feature which 'thins' nodes out. So it would automatically delete all nodes and join the envelope between my selected region on the envelope. So, if my envelope has nodes ABCDEFG, I would select from node B to node F and all nodes in between would be deleted and the envelope joined up in stright line.

Quote:
As for node selection, sometimes multiple nodes are selected which means that I have to click off the envelope to deselect the group, if I only want to adjust one of them.

Exactly. And why do we have to move one envelope or a group of envelopes to select a node ? This is a very bad design.
It should work so that once I select an envelope, I can grab any node on this selected envelope. But it isn't the case, as illustrated by my image. This is a major problem for me, just look how many envelopes I tend to deal with. Am I expected to move all/any envelope in this scenario just to get at nodes ?

Hi Bitflipper,
quote:
Given your propensity for heavy automation (which I can relate to) I would urge you to try manual rather than recorded automation.

Manual automation is not what i would choose, ever. How could I smootly and intuitively automate an XY pad by drawaing one envelope at a time?  If taking the Alchemy example, what I do, and what most people would do to I expect, is to record all the knobs and remix pads either by grabbing them with a mouse or by having them all assigned to physical controllers. It's quick, easy, intuitive. Unlike the manual method.
The manual method has no advantage 'timewise' to what I have to spend on editing envelopes now.

Quote:
Second, if you're having trouble grabbing the right envelope/node, use the maximize button. There are many times when I have two envelopes that are so close together that when I click on one the other gets selected. Maximize it, and suddenly they are miles apart.

Yes. In my second image in my first post the track is kind of maximised, and still I can't grab the node on the selected envelope. This shouldn't be so. I'm at enough zoom to be able to do that. To be honest, I shouldn't have to zoom in so much. Now repeat that process with all those envelopes (See first pic) zoom in zoom out.... It can get pretty tiring very quickly. That leads to frustration, which leads to anger...


Quote:
I'm surprised you can't hide selected envelopes in S6. I thought I was doing that back at S5, but I could very well be mistaken about that. Well, it's a good excuse to upgrade!

You can hide envelopes but in groups only: midi, volume, automation...etc. But all my automation envelopes are hidden/shown in bulk in S6. Can you hide individual AUTOMATION envelopes in S8 ? That would be very helpful.

Hi Al,
Quote:
i'm feeling your struggle. I also use large amounts of automation, and it sometimes feels like i've picked the wrong DAW, when it comes to the type of music i make.

LOl. Yes, I sometimes feel the same. So, that's why I'm asking here, since it's either I upgrade to 8 and 8.5 or change my host. I feel that Cakewalk does not pay attention to these matters.

I shall try your suggestion regarding multiple midi tracks in a minute. Thanks ! :-)

You know that if you press E you get the envelope tool, which allows you to deal only with envelopes, selecting, deleting etc? And that all you have to do is right-click on a line between two points to choose what kind of curve you want it to be? Or the 'learn automation' button W that works for both plugs and softsyths? And the 'hide envelope' util?

himalaya


...As for node selection, sometimes multiple nodes are selected which means that I have to click off the envelope to deselect the group, if I only want to adjust one of them.

Exactly. And why do we have to move one envelope or a group of envelopes to select a node ? This is a very bad design.
It should work so that once I select an envelope, I can grab any node on this selected envelope. 

Yes a solo', or a better select' (rather than hide') would be cool. And may I submit that if there were a way to have envelopes be offset' visually in the track pane, all the lines that reside at 'zero for example would not be bunched under each other which in fact even zooming to full page does not help.

himalaya


Paul, with all due respect, have you actually read my posts ? It's not helpful if you just jump in without actually referring to the content of the thread.

If I press E, the envelope tool will still not do what I want.
The envelope tool will not allow me to select a node on the selected  envelope if there are other nodes overlapping. See my very first post. What happens, the node below the one I grab gets selected.
Please read my post again, and if you have any experience with S8.5 do let me know if it improves automation envelopes/nodes editing and management in regards to the issues I have outlined. Thank you.
 

H
 
there are no specific automation improvements that I can find in 8.5 for you. My workaround for the problems you are mentioning is to hide specific envelopes, zoom in if necessary, adjust and make them visible again. I agree with you that it's not perfect.

The only way I was able to fix the issues you are having was to mix my projects in a different app that handles automation wonderfully. 

bitflipper,
Regarding the manual approach, it will also not work with systems as employed in synths like Alchemy and its Remix Pads. What Remix Pads do, in case you haven't used Alchemy, is they contain multiple assignments, up to 17 different knobs and XY pads! It would be simply impossible to hold up to 17 of those envelopes assigned to one such Remix Pad and draw them. Now, the very cool thing about Alchemy's Remix Pads is that you can slide across all eight pads with a mouse in real time creating smooth transitions. So that's eight pads each shifting up to 17 parameters at the same time! The very first image in the first post at the top shows this exactly.

I am also usually against manual envelope drawing as it is not an intuitive approach. In the same manner like playing a guitar gives more organic results than drawing notes on the piano roll which play back a sampled guitar sound.  I want to automate while I listen to the music, and not 'dry' with a tool in stop mode.


I also made a mistake, since S6 does allow to hide individual envelopes. But it really does not help in a situation where there are tons of automation data. There aren't enough minutes in a day to perform this task.... Instead of hiding envelopes, one by one, why not have an envelope solo ? It would hide all envelopes but one in one go. 

So I will be off to a feature request thingy. Anyone wants to join ? Please do ! :-)

http://www.cakewalk.com/s.port/FeatureRequest.aspx

The features/improvements I love to see are:
1. envelope solo
2. better node selection - without having to zoom in.
3. node thinning

Cheers !


Tazzman,
Which app are you refering to, if you don't mind telling ? :-)