b rock
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A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
 When you click on "Open Preset" (or the equivalent), what are the 'Files of Type' selections available within the dropdown choices? Arpeggiator Files (*.arp) ? Pattern Files (*.ptn) ? MIDI Files (*.mid) ? All of the above, none of the above, or other file types?
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
September 26, 09 10:02 AM
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Arpeggiator killed drum maps.
I can't use my Roland brand keyboard with drum maps anymore. :-(
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b rock
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
September 26, 09 11:16 AM
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Arpeggiator killed drum maps. Good answer! Good answer!!! Survey says ... [X] [X] [X] Sonar family with a chance to steal. Name a 'File of Type' supported in Sonar 8.5's arpeggiator.
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
September 26, 09 11:26 AM
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I too am wondering how you can program the arpegiattor to make arpeggios that you know the pattern of.
It seems like finding the patterns would be very helpful.
I can't find them because they do not display the extensions you have asked about. I assume they are in a contents folder, perhaps they are compiled?
But, I've become distracted because apparently Cakewalk's implementation of the arpeggiator to please emerging customers has cost me the ability to use drum maps while playing my MIDI controller.
Bummer.
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b rock
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
September 26, 09 11:50 AM
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I can't find them because they do not display the extensions you have asked about.
If I'm understanding this correctly, Sonar 8.5's arpeggiator doesn't feature an equivalent dialog to this?  It's my hope that S8.5's arp brought in the open architecture from Project5, along with the identical features and identical 'shipping' content files.
post edited by b rock - September 26, 09 11:53 AM
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Jose7822
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
September 26, 09 11:57 AM
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Hey B Rock!
Yes, the Arpeggiator in Sonar opens a window just like the one on your last screenshot. The "Files of type:" also shows those two types of files: *.arp and *.ptn. However, all the presets shown in the window that opens are of the *.arp type.
HTH
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
September 26, 09 12:08 AM
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But where are the actual patterns? Are they "compiled" into the .ARP preset file, which I assume also includes all the dialog check box choices in the arp window?
best regards,
mike
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Jose7822
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
September 26, 09 12:17 AM
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That's what it seems like. I'm not familiar with any of these new file extensions, so I can only assume.
Sorry.
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b rock
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
September 26, 09 12:30 AM
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Yes, the Arpeggiator in Sonar opens a window just like the one on your last screenshot. Thank you for that straightforward answer, Jose. If the actual content files are located in ...\Documents and Settings\ ... [XP], or ... \Program Data\ ... [Vista], then you should be able to add these: Alesion ARP Presets [*.arp format] Alesion ARP Construction Kit [*.ptn format] There are 500 ARP presets and 500 pattern files, respectively; derived from the (excellent) Alesis Ion / Micron arpeggiator. The results are rhythmic / polyrhythmic, and quite different from the "four-on-the-floor" focus of Cakewalk's presets. The 500 .ptn files are available to 'roll your own' combinations. I put together some extensive documentation a few years back on both the ARP preset use, and the ARP construction kit. Alesion ARP Presets tutorials Alesion Construction Kit tutorials In addition, the tutorials explain quite a bit about how the arpeggiator features actually work. 
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
September 26, 09 12:45 AM
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brock,
That's real cool. The construction kit seems very useful.
best,
mike
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b rock
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
September 26, 09 1:08 PM
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Mike, let me know if you (or anyone else) can locate the paths for the .arp files. You should be able to load the 500 .arps and .ptn files from anywhere, but it'd be easier if they landed in the default locations. I'll adapt those tutorials to apply to the 'living', rather than the 'dead' (Sonar 8.5.x over the original Project5 focus). I'm not familiar with any of these new file extensions The ability to load pattern files (*.ptn) has been in Sonar for at least a couple of versions now. I can't be sure about Sonar 8.5, but the procedure was File -> Import -> MIDI. Then change the 'Files of Type' selection to 'P5 Pattern'. The .ptn file format is not unlike a 'groove clip', but it also has the capability of storing a superset of automation parameters within itself. In Project5, that included automation of all of the arpeggiator parameters themselves.
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Jose7822
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
September 26, 09 1:29 PM
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B Rock,
Yeah, it opens the contents of those two folders just fine.
I'll read the tutorials at some point though. Thanks!
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
September 26, 09 1:55 PM
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I found mine in my XP win32 install by clicking thru from C:\Programs\Cakewalk\Sonar 8.5 Producer\User Data:
C:\Documents and Settings\Mike McCue\Application Data\Cakewalk\Sonar 8.5 Producer\Arpeggiator
The .arp files are in there.
best regards,
mike
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ducatibruce2
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
September 26, 09 8:40 PM
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Sonar's PTN files are stored (XP 32bit) under C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\Cakewalk\Sonar 8.5 Producer\PTN MIDI Patterns Though Sonar doesnt seem to care where the PTN files are stored, a shortcut to the PTN files location placed in the ARP folder (eg C:\Documents and Settings\Bruce\Application Data\Cakewalk\Sonar 8.5 Producer\Arpeggiator) will happily link to the PTN folder (next time you open the file explorer in the Arpegiattor it will still open in the .arp folder) According to the Sonar help file .arp files are the saved presets from the arpeggiator and you can build your own by opening .ptn files & tweaking arpeggiator parameters. This begs the question - how do you build custom arps if you don't own the discontinued P5? Will Sonar (at some point in the future) allow us to build PTN files? @b rock - I loaded the Alesion files into Sonars arp the other night, they seem to work just fine. edit to add: - the shipping content between P5 & S8.5.1 seem to be the same for .arp & .ptn files
post edited by ducatibruce2 - September 26, 09 9:04 PM
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Chris S
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
September 26, 09 10:23 PM
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OoO This is a good resource!
Thanks guys.
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rabeach
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
September 27, 09 1:06 AM
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Thanks Tom it has been a while since I used p5 and I had forgotten about these.
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b rock
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
September 27, 09 10:06 AM
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This begs the question - how do you build custom arps if you don't own the discontinued P5? Will Sonar (at some point in the future) allow us to build PTN files? Indeed. Apparently, someone felt that a pile of presets would be good enough to 'sell' S8.5's initial outing of the arpeggiator. There's also an 'anomaly' that was never addressed in Project5's Editor pane. Dependent on the Snap to Grid setting, you'll get a saved pattern that may be one 'snap' too short or too long if you're not extremely careful. It will add automation or a 'rest' (or save as a truncated .ptn), and that depends on what you place on either side of the 'End Marker'. It's a two-step process: create your pattern, then clean up the mess afterwards. **************** If anyone wants to test another option in Sonar 8.5.x, I tossed together a quick little one-bar pattern. It doesn't contain any note values. What it does (in P5, anyway) is automate the Pitch Offset, Octave, and Shape parameters in the arpeggiator. In a synth track, use File -> Import -> MIDI. Then change the 'Files of Type' selection to 'P5 Pattern', and load up the .ptn file below. Hit 'Play', and you should see the parameter values changing rapidly over the span of one measure. Test ARP Automation Pattern
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Jose7822
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
September 27, 09 2:57 PM
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b rock
If anyone wants to test another option in Sonar 8.5.x, I tossed together a quick little one-bar pattern. It doesn't contain any note values. What it does (in P5, anyway) is automate the Pitch Offset, Octave, and Shape parameters in the arpeggiator.
In a synth track, use File -> Import -> MIDI. Then change the 'Files of Type' selection to 'P5 Pattern', and load up the .ptn file below. Hit 'Play', and you should see the parameter values changing rapidly over the span of one measure.
Test ARP Automation Pattern
Not sure if I'm doing this correctly or not, but I'm not seeing anything happen. I loaded the TTS-1 and went to File > Import > MIDI to import that PTN file you linked. Press PLAY, nothing happens. I tried Importing it using the Arpeggiator section (Open Preset...), still nothing.
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b rock
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
September 27, 09 4:04 PM
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I loaded the TTS-1 and went to File > Import > MIDI to import that PTN file you linked. Press PLAY, nothing happens. Oh, well. Thanks for trying. What you should have seen (with the arpeggiator visible) is the Octaves parameter ramping from 1 to 8 octaves, the Pitch Offset remaining steady before ramping up to +24 semitones, and pseudo-random Shapes selected. You might not have seen anything imported, because there were no note values present. I modified the test pattern just now to include a one-measure 'middle C' note; just in case it was treated as an "empty" file. Test ARP Automation Pattern Of course, the other possibility is that the embedded arp automation in a .ptn file is simply blocked or ignored by Sonar 8.5.x. That would make sense in versions earlier than 8.5, but it's most unfortunate now that Sonar includes a per-track arpeggiator. It's a valuable asset that's unique to a .ptn file. I wonder if this was a conscious decision, or something that was simply overlooked?
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ducatibruce2
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
September 27, 09 7:16 PM
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Even with the modified file I see no movement in the arpeggiator, loaded it into P5 (to make sure I understood what I was supposed to see) & saw movement of the arp parameters. Sonar's help file makes the comment that Arp parameters can be controlled via midi remote control but automation data cannot be recorded into tracks - so it sounds a little like it was a deliberate decision. Though it may mean Sonar cant modify ptn files without a large chunk of P5's engine. edit to add: Problem report lodged CWBRN-1842 (including the PTN file - hope you don't mind) - we'll see what they say 
post edited by ducatibruce2 - September 27, 09 7:53 PM
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Jose7822
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
September 27, 09 8:26 PM
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B Rock,
I forgot to mention that I did test with both an empty MIDI track and one with note events in it. As Duca said, it didn't make any difference (I appreciate you have reported it Duca, thanks!).
Take care!
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ducatibruce2
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
October 02, 09 6:05 PM
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CWBRN-1842 Thank-you for submitting your problem report, you are receiving this message because the status of your report has been changed to AS INTENDED. With the following notes: Thank-you for the report. Differences in architecture between Project5 and SONAR dictated the lack of automation support for PTN files. A feature request has been put in on your behalf for this change. Thanks.
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Jose7822
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
October 02, 09 6:08 PM
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Thanks for reporting back Duca. Hope they add this feature soon.
Peace!
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ducatibruce2
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
October 02, 09 6:16 PM
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No worries Jose  According to a recent CW post (Robin Kelly??) the number of feature requests received by CW influences the chance of a feature being implemented (hint hint) 
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b rock
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
October 02, 09 6:27 PM
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AS INTENDED
Thanks for the update. I had just been wondering whether you had received an official response yet. I'd speculate that the decision partly involved adding yet another level of complexity vs. the possible return on investment. Automation can really put the arpeggiator through its paces; all sorts of things can go wrong. Unfortunately, you lose the capability to have one per-track arp configured as many different arpeggiators 'on-the-fly', and stored within .ptn modules. I won't even go into the possibilities of using that as a performance device. Something intrigues me here, though. I believe that it's been mentioned about having MIDI control over each parameter in the arpeggiator. (Again, I don't have Sonar8.5.) That makes me believe that MIDI messages / clips could act as automated arpeggiator parameters; one step removed. I suppose that using both the 'learned' parameters and a .ptn file could serve as a rough approximation of embedded arp automation.
post edited by b rock - October 02, 09 6:31 PM
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ducatibruce2
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
October 02, 09 6:42 PM
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Something intrigues me here, though. I believe that it's been mentioned about having MIDI control over each parameter in the arpeggiator. (Again, I don't have Sonar8.5.) That makes me believe that MIDI messages / clips could act as automated arpeggiator parameters; one step removed. From the S8.5 help file Note: Most Arpeggiator parameters can be controlled via MIDI remote control, but automation data can not be recorded into tracks. So it sounds like it'd work for live performance but recorded is a whole different issue.
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Fret Wizz
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
October 02, 09 7:50 PM
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In my PC, *.arp files live in :
%userprofile%\AppData\Roaming\Cakewalk\SONAR 8.5 Producer\Arpeggiator
post edited by Fret Wizz - October 02, 09 7:51 PM
Fret Wizz SONAR 8.5 PE 64 bit : Win 7 Ultimate 64 Bit : Echo MIA
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Fret Wizz
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
October 02, 09 7:53 PM
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ducatibruce2
From the S8.5 help file
Note: Most Arpeggiator parameters can be controlled via MIDI remote control, but automation data can not be recorded into tracks.
So it sounds like it'd work for live performance but recorded is a whole different issue.
Same as the Matrix View. Can play it live but can't play it from a recorded MIDI track. Definitely a feature request for both of them.
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ducatibruce2
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
October 02, 09 9:38 PM
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Definitely a feature request for both of them. +1 - in the meantime (from KludgesRUs) knob twiddling automation recorded to a different track & routed out through some sort of midi loopback into the arp track "midi learned" input would have to look kind of live to Sonar no?
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b rock
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Re:A Straightforward Sonar 8.5 Arpeggiator Question
October 03, 09 7:31 AM
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automation recorded to a different track & routed out through some sort of midi loopback into the arp track "midi learned" input would have to look kind of live to Sonar no? You read my mind. It'd also be the route to take for real-time recording of the arpeggiator output without having to Bounce to Clip/Track after the fact.
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