MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording

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Yonder
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2009/11/01 23:04:04 (permalink)

MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording

I have an old Cakewalk home studio, version 3, that I have used with a midi keyboard controller. It worked fine with my old computer. My midi keyboard was connected to the sound card.
I now have a new computer that has windows Vista, and there is no connector on the sound card.  I understand that I must now use the USB to connect my keyboard, so I bought a cable that is for USB to Midi. It does not work, my version of cakewalk is not compatible with USB. I know the cable is okay because I tried it on a similiar program from a different company.
Okay so now it's time for me to upgrade, the program that I am considering  in my price range is Music Creator 5. But before I buy it there are a few questions I have.
1. When I play my Midi controller keyboard in Music Creator 5, can I hear it without recording.
2. And can I select any of the 128 midi instrument sounds, and use my keyboard to play that instrument sound without recording first?
3. If I record my keyboard playing on one track with an organ sound, can I copy that track and then paste it into another track, and then change the midi instrument voice of that second track to say a flute sound, and then play both tracks back at the same time. And how many tracks can I keep doing that, with a different instrument voice on each track? 
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    57Gregy
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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/01 23:22:53 (permalink)
    1. Yes. Depending on your sound card, you may have a lot, I mean a lot, of latency, when you hit the key and the sound doesn't occur until 1/2 to 1 second later.
    2. Yes.
    3. Yes. It would be easier to clone the track, no pasting required. I have done that myself, cloned then changed the clone's patch. You can do it as many times as you like, I think MC 5 has a 128-MIDI track limit. But there are only 16 MIDI channels, so you would have to bounce some of your tracks to audio to re-use those MIDI channels. Unless you have an interface which has multiple MIDI ins/outs.
     
    "my version of cakewalk is not compatible with USB"
     
    I don't think that's right. Maybe one of the more tech-savvy folks can shed some light on that statement. It may be just that your version is not compatible with Vista.
    If you have a Yamaha keyboard, they often do not work with non-Yamaha MIDI-to-USB converters.

    Greg 
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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/02 07:39:37 (permalink)
    It's more likely that the operating system is the issue with MC3.....

    Yes.... you can do all that and more.   MC5 has 48 audio tracks and 128 midi tracks....however, the actual number your computer will do at one time will depend on the hardware in it.

    I would recommend that you buy a nice interface (external soundcard for USB or Firewire). As Greg said, the latency from your factory card will be unacceptable for all practical purposes.

    You will need to learn about soft synths if you haven't already..... and you can get this info from the MC5 manual and from my website on MC4 & TTS.

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    Beagle
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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/02 08:09:28 (permalink)
    It does not work, my version of cakewalk is not compatible with USB. I know the cable is okay because I tried it on a similiar program from a different company.

    yeah, as greg said, that's not correct.  as long as windows recognizes it then MC will.  maybe you just didn't set it up in the OPTIONS>MIDI DEVICES box?


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    Filo
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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/03 03:20:43 (permalink)
    Hi guys,
    I've bought MC5 some days ago and I have a couple of similar questions as Yonder, thank you for answer.
    1. Any external USB soundcard solve a problem with latency (MIDI and audio too)? Or it must be some hi-tech brand ?
    2. Is it possible to clone/copy MIDI track as Soundcenter track ?





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    Beagle
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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/03 08:57:35 (permalink)
    1) I would be hesitant to say "any" USB soundcard.  look at my website - I have recommendations there.  I do not recommend anything by Soundblaster, but EMU is also a Creative product and those products are great for recording. 
    2) I don't understand the question.  All MIDI tracks can be copied and you can output the track to any softsynth you want.  does that answer your question?

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    57Gregy
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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/03 11:08:13 (permalink)
    Is it possible to clone/copy MIDI track as Soundcenter track ?

     
    You can clone the track, but since Sound Center is a single-input synth, you would probably have to manually insert a new instance of Sound Center. I don't think cloning would automatically insert the synth.
    Good USB devices can be gotten for around $100 US. I don't know what you have available in the Czech Republic, but there's always mail order.
    Welcome to the forum.

    Greg 
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    Filo
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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/03 12:40:19 (permalink)
    >>
    All MIDI tracks can be copied and you can output the track to any softsynth you want
    ...
    You can clone the track, but since Sound Center is a single-input synth, you would probably have to manually insert a new instance of Sound Center. I don't think cloning would automatically insert the synth.
    <<
    Maybe it should be better if I try to explain that step by step. Sorry for terminology and not the best english ;)
    I have a one mid file and there is a guitar track. For this track I would like to use output not thru  "classic" MIDI output but thru Sound Center.
    So I thought the quickiest way is to insert new track (Sound center type) and just copy (ctrl+C/Ctrl+V) a guitar midi track to it. It is possible but sound is .. weird. It looks like that SC cannot play more notes simultaneously (in my case)

    post edited by Filo - 2009/11/03 12:47:13

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    Beagle
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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/03 14:01:06 (permalink)
    Ah - I think what you may be describing is a polyphony limit - we've heard others complain about it before.  I did go and look at the soundcenter and I can't find a way to increase the polyphony in it.  there's also no documentation on it that actually says what the polyphony limit is.  I think it may be time we found out more about this...

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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/03 16:12:46 (permalink)
    Ok - I was hoping Willy would pop in here himself, but he just responded directly to my email instead.

    here's what he said:
    The polyphony is set per-patch in Sound Center.  It’s not actually something the user has any control over though.  Sound Center is comprised of both the Dimension Pro and Rapture engines but are limited in the number of parameters they can control for each patch.  Polyphony for both engines is not a global setting, it is set per program/patch. 
     
    So, in a nutshell – no it can’t be controlled by the user and it is limited to the number of voices set in that program when it was created in Dimension Pro or Rapture.


    so in other words- if it's not playing all of your notes, then it won't ever because you can't adjust it and it's set according to the soundfont of each patch.  the alternative would be to use a different patch until you find one that works with that many notes being played.

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/03 16:27:28 (permalink)
    Filo..... what soundcard are you currently using? I think that may be a factor in the issues you are having.

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    Filo
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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/03 17:41:55 (permalink)
    I'm currently using on-board Realtek ALC1200. I have a SB Live Value too, but there is no driver under Win7 64bit.

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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/03 17:49:43 (permalink)
    No disrespect intended to my friend Herb, but if the problem is indeed polyphony of the softsynth then the soundcard doesn't matter.

    the soundcard you have is a "onboard chip" and it's not the best for recording.  it will cause stuttering, popping, even dropout, but if it's actual "dropped notes" you're dealing with - then that's a function of the polyphony of the softsynth.

    here's a way you can tell:  insert TTS-1 softsynth and change the output of your MIDI track to TTS-1 instead of Soundcenter.  if all of the notes still don't play, you can adjust the polyphony in TTS-1 (I'll have to look up the instructions on how to do that when I get home).  if that doesn't fix the problem, then the problem could be that your soundcard is actually not handling the processing, if it does fix the problem, then the problem is that soundcenter will not handle the polyphony for your MIDI track.

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    Filo
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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/05 02:01:19 (permalink)
    Thank you for your advice !

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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/05 08:07:53 (permalink)
    Did you try using TTS-1 and see if the note dropping stopped?  I'm curious to find out if this is indeed a polyphony problem.

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    Filo
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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/05 08:34:49 (permalink)
    Not yet, I've got  a cheap CMI8738 soundcard with external MIDI port for testing so I hope I will have some time to check it with TTS today.

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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/05 08:41:10 (permalink)
    Just to clarify - the external MIDI port doesn't have anything to do with it.  just insert TTS-1 from the INSERT>SOFTSYNTHS>TTS-1 menu options and set your MIDI output on the MIDI track to TTS-1 instead of the soundcenter.

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    Filo
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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/05 09:51:34 (permalink)
    Sure, understand, my comment about CMI was slightly a bit off topic, sorry for confusion ;)

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    Beagle
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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/05 09:52:22 (permalink)
    OK!  just making sure!

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    Filo
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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/05 15:32:45 (permalink)
    Beagle


    Did you try using TTS-1 and see if the note dropping stopped?  I'm curious to find out if this is indeed a polyphony problem.


    Did you try using TTS-1 and see if the note dropping stopped? I'm curious to find out if this is indeed a polyphony problem.


    Confirmed, yes, it has been stopped, sounds much better thru TTS ;)  There is only one small problem, I don't know why, but when I change output to TTS, sound from track starts a little bit earlier than other "common" midi tracks. Curious, it is still measured in the rhythm :)

    I made a small example, guitar track is duplicated, left channel is playing thru TTS, right thru MIDI. Drums are in both channels.
    http://depositfiles.com/files/77bguuzmq


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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/05 15:35:40 (permalink)
    What do you mean by "right thru MIDI."?

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    Filo
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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/05 15:53:08 (permalink)
    right audio channel in mentioned example

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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/05 16:17:37 (permalink)
    Filo - it's the "thru MIDI" part that I don't understand.  right channel is being sent to what?  "thru MIDI" doesn't make sense.  I'm assuming you mean both tracks are MIDI tracks and the left one's output is set to TTS-1, but the right one is being sent to "thru MIDI" doesn't make sense.  what is the output of the right one?

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    Filo
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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/06 01:05:01 (permalink)
    I have probably a mismatch in terminology, sorry about that and thank you for patience :(
    Drums track: output: Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth, panning: Center
    Guitar1 track: output: Cakewalk TTS-1, panning: Left
    Guitar2 track: output: Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth, panning: Right
    http://img137.imageshack....37/8/scrnheavyasig.jpg
    post edited by Filo - 2009/11/06 01:08:59

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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/06 07:42:47 (permalink)
    Ok - the problem is going to be because you're sending MIDI to the MS GS wavetable and TTS-1.  I can't listen to your song here at work, but I suspect that the MS GS Wavetable is actually faster than TTS-1 and since you're in MME driver mode you have no latency compensation available. 

    MS GS Wavetable is the worst softsynth you could possibly use, tho.  what is the reason you're choosing it instead of making all of the MIDI tracks go thru TTS-1?  TTS-1 has much better sounds than MS GS Wavetable anyway.

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    Filo
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    Re:MC5-playing instrument sounds without recording 2009/11/06 09:34:34 (permalink)
    >> I suspect that the MS GS Wavetable is actually faster than TTS-1 and since you're in MME driver mode you have no latency compensation available.
    Yes could be, good point.  There are 2 closed hi-hat "ticks" before both guitar tracks are playing. So I suppose when I remove these ticks (all tracks start simultaneously), the guitar track with TTS output should sounds later than track with GS output. Just a theory, I need to check it. 
    [edit] Nonsense, forget about it. Situation is a different. TTS sounds earlier than GS in my example, so there couldn't be a latency delay. 

    >>> MS GS Wavetable is the worst softsynth you could possibly use, tho.  what is the reason you're choosing it instead of making all of the MIDI tracks go thru TTS-1?  TTS-1 has much better sounds than MS GS Wavetable anyway. <<<
    Yes, I agree with you. I'm still on "MC5 observer & discover" phase, too much things has been changed until I used old good simple Cakewalk eight years ago :-)
    post edited by Filo - 2009/11/06 09:55:54

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