To Sonar developers: Here's what's wrong with the plugin windows [Now with proof!!!]

• WS_CLIPCHILDREN
• WS_CLIPSIBLINGS
• WS_EX_COMPOSITED  <- Don't use. Some plugins' UIs update slowly when this is set.

SONARtist


So now the issue is "how do you GET to the developers to make your suggestions" ?  I just hope someone from Cake reads this (Brandon ?)

Susan G


From the "How to Contact Cakewalk Directly" Sticky:

If you think you may have found a defect in a Cakewalk program, inform us so we can fix it:

http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/ProblemReporter/

-Susan

Sickvision


ya bit you tell him. lol i would be pressed to go in to this conversation more than that. sounds like

bitflipper


WS_CLIPCHILDREN is a property of the parent window. It tells the parent not to redraw the region occupied by the child window, which can reduce flicker caused by the parent redrawing that region and then the child redraws over it.

If you are seeing reduced flicker in your VST as a result of setting this property, it's because the flicker was within your VST's window caused by painting the child windows within it.

And these settings do relate to video drivers. They aren't magic, they instruct Windows capital-W on how to paint windows little-w. Ultimately, it is up to the video driver to do the actual work, and how each driver manages it varies. Some have accelerators just for this kind of thing, others do not.

Remember what happened when George W said "bring it on". He's been ridiculed for that statement ever since.

I am always open to good-spirited technical discussions

bitflipper

I am always open to good-spirited technical discussions

Had I believed this to be true, I would not have challenged your initial assertion. But you have chosen to take a heavy-handed, arrogant and disrespectful tone in your criticisms of Cakewalk developers, and that is what I take issue with. To suggest that they do not have a grasp of Windows programming equal to your own is extremely arrogant.

No, I have never written a VST, so you got me there. But I have been programming in Windows since 3.0, and programming other windowed UIs long before that, and I doubt very much that there is anything unique about VSTs from a GUI standpoint. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the Windows GDI cares one whit whether the windows in question contain a VST,  a spreadsheet or Bob the Helpful Paperclip.

I can tell you that in my own experience, I have implemented WS_CLIPCHILDREN to combat flicker, exactly as you are doing, and I had to remove it due to incompatibilities with some video drivers.

I support about 2,000 workstations and I have no control over what hardware my users buy, so when incompatibilities come to light I have to code to the lowest common denominator. Cakewalk's install base is many times bigger than mine, so they have to use even more caution. That's what I meant when I said that just because a solution works for you does not mean it's practical for Cakewalk to implement.

So settle down, buckaroo. You're not the only coder cowboy on the planet - CW employs some of the best in the business. If you think they need your help, write them an email and offer your services. But don't post broadside attacks on an open forum that suggest they are incompetent, knowing that most readers will not be able to critically evaluate your claims.
 

No, I have never written a VST, so you got me there. But I have been programming in Windows since 3.0, and programming other windowed UIs long before that, and I doubt very much that there is anything unique about VSTs from a GUI standpoint. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the Windows GDI cares one whit whether the windows in question contain a VST,  a spreadsheet or Bob the Helpful Paperclip.
 

kevo


Just for the fun of it, here's what Cakewalk has to say about plugins that don't display properly.

Plug-in Windows Flicker or don’t Display Properly 
If you have any plug-in’s that flicker or don’t display properly, please see the "X-Ray Windows Not Compatible With Some Plug-ins" topic below.
X-Ray Windows Not Compatible With Some Plug-ins 
X-Ray Windows is not compatible with plug-ins that use DirectDraw to create their windows, such as many recent plug-ins by Waves. If a plug-in is not compatible with X-Ray, the plug-in's window will either flicker or not display properly. If you have any plug-ins that are affected by this, you can exclude the plug-n(s) from X-Ray by following the instructions below...
 
 

Sound Advice


I don't know all that much about programming, except what i do know is that the people at cakewalk do it for a living.

and also what seems simple sometimes is actually quite complicated when it comes to wide range user compatibility, and also lots of other little things can get interference.

idk, for this case specifically, but if this is basic windows 101, then i have a feeling there were some kind of complications that arose where they had to fore-go these visual enhancements, or fixes.

WS_CLIPCHILDREN 
Excludes the area occupied by child windows when drawing occurs within the parent window. This style is used when creating the parent window.

Sound Advice


i wasn't implying you didn't know what you were talking about, just saying that they do know what they're talking about also, and certainly their knowledge with sonar and all it's requirements and compatibility issues and whatnot far exceeds yours.

but you did the right thing at any rate. you sent them a bug report. and they will most certainly look at it, and if it is an option for them to change it, then we'll for sure see it in the next patch  for 8.5
 

 

SilkTone

 

Yes their knowledge of Sonar far exceeds mine. But that doesn't mean their knowledge of programming Windows itself is neccesarily better that every body elses.

SilkTone

Sound Advice

 

SilkTone

Yes their knowledge of Sonar far exceeds mine. But that doesn't mean their knowledge of programming Windows itself is neccesarily better that every body elses.

That is a fact, but i thought you said it was basic obvious windows 101? surely they would know that wouldn't they?

but still, sometimes in the process of producing things for one reason or another something might get overlooked, so it's a good thing you submitted the fix either way.

even though it's low on the priority list, it sounds simple to fix, so i think it's probably quite likely they would fix it if they could. but i don't know how they run their company so i could be wrong.

Well if there is one thing I know is that in any software there are going to bugs, no matter how simple or obvious the bug looks in hindsight. It might very well not have been anyone's intention to leave out these flags, but we all make mistakes and especially in software where there are so many things that can go wrong. Things often seem to work right but in reality there could be subtle bugs where the cause is not obvious at all. So my point is just because those flags are not set, doesn't mean that was the intention. The part that is a bit strange to me is that this bug is still there after all these years/versions.

bitflipper


So you would have CW set these options in SONAR's main window, possibly screwing up other child windows, just so the VST window doesn't flicker? The WS_CLIPCHILDREN flag is especially problematic, potentially causing many other drawing issues.

Some of these options cause problems that only show up with specific video drivers, or with specific combinations of other style flags, making it hard to test (as I found out the hard way - and I don't support nearly as many workstations as CW does). Just because a technique works for you on your computer doesn't mean the "fix" translates to the thousands of other, very diverse computers in the world.

I'm sure CW appreciates your help, but why would you assume that something so basic would be beyond Noel & company's expertise in the first place?

Common Bit, give the guy a break. He's having a damn good go at this. He just MAY be onto something and even if he doesn't have the exact problem nailed it may lead to somebody realising the real problem. And the devs at Cakewalk are just devs. If development got it right first time every time,  there would never be any bugs would there?

Cheers.