[CWBRN-1336][CWBRN-2503] The "Enable MIDI Output" bug without 3rd party plugins.

 
I have finally been able to duplicate the "Enable MIDI Output" bug with what ships in the box with Sonar. This bug is also known as the "MIDI Crosstalk" bug, "Sonar's MIDI buffers are not multithread safe" bug, and other names that I can't repeat on this forum.
 
[Edit: I updated the steps to reproduce the bug more reliably]
 
Steps to reproduce: 
 
Reproduce steps using [external MIDI keyboard] - Omni: 

 

1. Important: For this test, ensure there is only one MIDI input driver enabled. Having more than one enabled somehow prevents these steps from reproducing the bug.
2. Start with a blank project.
3. Insert an instance of Beatscape.
4. Set Beatscape's MIDI input to "None" (bonus bug - sometimes this reverts back to "Omni").
5. Go to the synth rack, right-click on Beatscape and select "Enable MIDI Output".
6. Insert a new MIDI track.
7. Set the new MIDI track's input to "[Name of my external MIDI keyboard]- Omni".
8. Put the new MIDI track into record mode, and start recording.
9. With the Beatscape editor open, randomly click on notes on the keyboard at the bottom of the Beatscape editor.
10. Stop recording.
 
You will notice that MIDI notes were recorded into the new MIDI track, even though its input is clearly set to specifically record from the external MIDI keyboard.
 
Reproduce steps using [external MIDI keyboard] – Ch. 1: 

 

1. Start with a blank project.
2. Insert an instance of Beatscape.
3. Set Beatscape’s input to “[Name of my external MIDI keyboard]- Ch. 1”.
4. Play notes on the external keyboard and while watching the Beatscape keyboard, make a mental note of where the “Pad Trigger” keys are located.
5. Set Beatscape's MIDI input to "None" (bonus bug - sometimes this reverts back to "Omni").
6. Go to the synth rack, right-click on Beatscape and select "Enable MIDI Output".
7. Insert a new MIDI track.
8. Set the new MIDI track's input to "[Name of my external MIDI keyboard]- Ch. 1".
9. Put the new MIDI track into record mode, and start recording.
10. On the external MIDI keyboard, press and hold a chord on the same keys that were noted in step 4 (do not release the chord until step 11 is completed)
11. With the Beatscape editor open, click on the corresponding notes on the keyboard at the bottom of the Beatscape editor.
12. Stop recording.
 
You will notice that the notes recorded on the new MIDI track have been cut short as soon as the corresponding notes in Beatscape were pressed. According to the way the MIDI has been routed, this should not happen. This is just one way to repro this bug, there are many other scenarios where it prevents simple MIDI routing setups to work properly. Essentially any VSTi that sends MIDI output is useless in Sonar since there is almost always unwanted "crosstalk" between completely unrelated channels. 
 
Cakewalk can no longer claim this is not their bug because 3rd-party plugins were required to reproduce this. The steps above clearly show that there is a bug and it can be reproduced with what ships with Sonar. It can also be reproduced with every other plugin that supports sending MIDI events out.
 
For background on this bug: 
 
Detailed bug description:
http://www.alienworks.com/cakewalk/sonarmidibug/sonarmidibug.htm
 
Thread related to these bugs:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1643436
 
Thread related to Catanya’s issues related to this bug:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1900788
  
CWBRN-1336 - Enable MIDI Output bug (filed on 2/25/2009, not on 9/22/2009 as per CWBRN-1336)
CWBRN-2503 - Re-post of Enable MIDI Output bug with updated info about crashing
 
 
Thread title truncated due to reaching max length.

bvideo


Is this really that same bug you've reported before using a plugin? I'm pretty sure your 2nd bug is the same as the one that has been reported caused by two external synths transmitting on the same channel, two different ports.   bug See especially brundlefly's version of the experiment.

By the way, I never seem to be able to view anybody else's bug reports.
Bill B.

Yea I know I can't view other people's bug reports either. Not sure if I'm doing something wrong, but since I don't have their email addresses, just having the CWBRN # doesn't help me much. Maybe it is meant to be useful only to CW employees reading the forum? Not sure.
 
But yes, I believe all of these weird MIDI related bugs are caused by one and the same thing. It seems more and more people are running into this in different ways. Now the only people left thinking nothing is wrong is Cakewalk.

Yes, you are right, in some scenarios this doesn't sound like a multithread bug. I can think of a few scenarios where the same results can be produced, all related to incorrect buffer usage:

Let's say the way Sonar works is that it allocates a MIDI buffer for each MIDI track's input. Now you go into record mode, and an unrelated VSTi receives a MIDI event. As part of processing this MIDI event, the VSTi creates a new set of MIDI events (example: Catanya), and calls into the host to send the events out. Sonar uses some logic to locate an "unused" MIDI buffer, and copies the events into that buffer. But if that logic was broken, it could accidentally have used a buffer that belongs to another track's input. As it enumerates through the tracks to process all inputs, it eventually comes to a different track, and now it presents the buffer it actually used for the VSTi's output.  The track detects it has MIDI events, and records them. The end result is what we see today in Sonar.

Another scenario is where Sonar correctly re-uses the buffers, but doesn't clear them properly when going from one to the next track. Sonar clears the buffers before the start of a "cycle", but during that cycle, a VSTi might send MIDI data out, Sonar uses one of the buffers it cleared (or maybe there is only one buffer?), but it does not clear the buffer again before moving on to the next track.

I am sure we can think of other scenarios that are not thread-related where the same results could occur.

BTW, these are not perfect examples, I am just saying that there could be a lot of different ways that this bug can occur.

Also note that you can cause Sonar to crash if you have more than one VSTi sending MIDI data out at the same time (and they have their "Enable MIDI Output" feature enabled).

Just curious -- since you have Beatscape set to enable midi output, and your midi track's input is set to "omni" - where do you expect the midi output from Beatscape to go?

Brian

Stone House Studios


Just curious -- since you have Beatscape set to enable midi output, and your midi track's input is set to "omni" - where do you expect the midi output from Beatscape to go?

Brian

Brian,
 
I have a question for you...
 
What do you believe to be the difference between these two MIDI input selections to be? I would love to get a simple explanation of the difference, according to you:
 
1. All Inputs - Omni
2. [Name of external MIDI keyboard] - Omni
 
Thanks!
 

Stone House Studios


Easy there -  I read it all; I'm just curious as to what is supposed to happen to the Beatscape midi output.
Also, you can call it anything you want, but  it is the track's input that is set to omni, which has nothing to do with the keyboard. It will record from any and all midi channels from the midi device, no matter what is connected to them. Consequently, if the output of the synth goes to the only midi driver you have in use, and record is set to omni . . . . . .
Are using the midi on the FA--66?

Brian

I think you have a misunderstanding how input selection works. According the the Sonar Help, the section called "Choosing an input":
 
"(name of MIDI input driver) > (MIDI Omni or MIDI ch 1-16). Choosing this option causes the track to record any MIDI channel coming from the named MIDI interface input driver, unless you choose a particular MIDI channel instead of MIDI Omni. Then the track will only record input that’s on the MIDI channel you chose, from the named input driver."
 
It doesn't say it will record any MIDI data floating around within Sonar, it specifically says it will "record any MIDI channel coming from the named MIDI interface input driver". Do you disagree with this?
 
Can you explain how you would configure a setup where you want to record MIDI data into a track from a keyboard that sends events on more than one channel (like a split keyboard)?
 
Also, you still have not told me what you believe to be the difference between the two input selection modes I listed. According to you they are identical. If so, why have the second one at all? Here are the two options again:
 
1. All Inputs - Omni
2. [Name of external MIDI keyboard] - Omni
 
And another question, how do you explain the results when you follow the second set of steps that specifically set the input to channel 1?

SilkTone, I'm no Midi expert but it's obvious to even me that you're not addressing the outputs or your hookup. There are several variables there that could be responsible.
If the keyboard was triggering Beatscape it would be a different scenario. Beatscape is known to be buggy when used in combination with other Midi equipment. I'm sure everyone would like to make Beatscape a more usable Plugin but it seems your experiment is not addressing the output of different Midi data into a common channel.
It's impossible to decipher what's happening based on the inputs.

Crg


SilkTone, I'm no Midi expert but it's obvious to even me that you're not addressing the outputs or your hookup. There are several variables there that could be responsible.
If the keyboard was triggering Beatscape it would be a different scenario. Beatscape is known to be buggy when used in combination with other Midi equipment. I'm sure everyone would like to make Beatscape a more usable Plugin but it seems your experiment is not addressing the output of different Midi data into a common channel.
It's impossible to decipher what's happening based on the inputs.

It doesn't matter how buggy Beatscape is, there should be no way for it to have its MIDI output show up on completely unrelated MIDI tracks. That is not a bug in Beatscape, it is a bug in Sonar. Beatscape has no control over the MIDI data once it leaves it. At that point it is up to Sonar to route the data properly. In addition, every other plugin that sends MIDI data out causes the same incorrect behavior.
 
Also, I don't understand what you mean with " it's obvious to even me that you're not addressing the outputs or your hookup". What does that mean? The steps are very precise and clear. You start with a clean project, so there are no unknow variables.
 
In addition, you can reproduce this bug in other ways. If you have two MIDI keyboards, you can't record both at the same time without data spilling over from one into the other's track (hence the MIDI Crosstalk Bug). This happens even if you specifically select a particular channel (not omni) for both keyboards. How do you explain that?
 
EDIT: 
By "addressing the outputs or your hookup", if you mean where does the output of the MIDI tracks go, then the answer is: It doesn't matter. You can select an unused MIDI output port, or you can even disable all of your MIDI output ports so that the track's output says the port is missing. It really just doesn't make any difference in this case. The results are always the same.

What Ports are being used by Beatscape? What ports are being used by the keyboard? How is the system hooked up? Do you have a Midi Merge or Midi thru common to both active somewhere? Etc.
I agree it's bug but there is not enough information to pinpoint it as a Sonar bug, Beatscape bug or interface setup bug. Can you identify what Midi channels Beatscape outputs on? I would really like to know if it's a Sonar bug as I have Midi problems of my own.

Stone House Studios
 
As far as the midi output goes - if you enable midi output - out it goes. There is no way for the VSTi to know whether or not you have selected something to receive the data. Afterall, you told it to put out! So logically, it would go to the midi driver for use.
 

It doesn't work like that. When you enable MIDI Output on a VSTi, the only thing that happens is that it becomes available as an input to other MIDI channels. It doesn't go anywhere until you actually choose it as the input to another MIDI track.
 

If you only have one midi device driver present (or only one port,) then both "Omni" modes would work identically, no? I have never investigated the difference, but I assume that if there is only one midi port, then there is only one type of omni.
You have said that you can only reproduce this bug when there is only one midi port, yes? 

Once again, that is not how it works. In the case of "All Inputs - Omni", or just "Omni", it means all external driver inputs, as well as all MIDI coming from all outputs of all VSTis. In the case of "[external driver] - Omni", it means all MIDI channels only from the specified driver, which will exclude output from any VSTis.  So there is a big difference between the two.

Assuming you are right (and since you write VST's I'll go with that) this makes no sense to me. It doesn't put out until an input is selected? Controllers send the data whether or not there is a receiving input - you can see activity in the midi driver icon. (I know we are not talking controllers here.)
 However, if you have "omni" selected as an input, (sure wish you would say what midi port/driver you are using) doesn't that call up the midi (in this scenario?)

Brian

Brian

Silk,

What exactly are you trying to do?

SilkTone

Crg


Beatscape has 16 pads correct? Each Pad outputs to a different channel correct? 1 thru 16 to be precise. Unless you choose different channels for each pad. So, what channels is Beatscape outputing to?

No, each pad outputs a different note, all on channel 1. Which is irrelevant since I am not choosing Beatscape as an input to my MIDI track that I'm using to record the external keyboard with, which can be set to either "[external MIDI keyboard] - Omni", or "[external MIDI keyboard] - Ch. 1" with both causing issues in slightly different ways.

That's not correct. I have setup Beatscape and it outputs to channels 1 thru 16.

Crg

SilkTone

Crg


Beatscape has 16 pads correct? Each Pad outputs to a different channel correct? 1 thru 16 to be precise. Unless you choose different channels for each pad. So, what channels is Beatscape outputing to?

No, each pad outputs a different note, all on channel 1. Which is irrelevant since I am not choosing Beatscape as an input to my MIDI track that I'm using to record the external keyboard with, which can be set to either "[external MIDI keyboard] - Omni", or "[external MIDI keyboard] - Ch. 1" with both causing issues in slightly different ways.

That's not correct. I have setup Beatscape and it outputs to channels 1 thru 16.

That is not what I am seeing. If I put the Beatscape MIDI track into record mode, and start recording, each event for each pad is a different note, but all on channel 1. How are you determining that it is on different channels?
 
BTW, this is going offtopic. Whether you or I are correct about Beatscape channels is irrelevant to the main issue here. Beatscape is just one of any other VSTi that sends MIDI out that causes this bug to reproduce.

Stone House Studios


Assuming you are right (and since you write VST's I'll go with that) this makes no sense to me. It doesn't put out until an input is selected? Controllers send the data whether or not there is a receiving input - you can see activity in the midi driver icon. (I know we are not talking controllers here.)
 However, if you have "omni" selected as an input, (sure wish you would say what midi port/driver you are using) doesn't that call up the midi (in this scenario?)

Brian

I don't have "Omni" selected as input, as I said multiple times. It is either "[External MIDI keyboard] - Omni", or "[External MIDI keyboard] - Ch. 1". If you want me to get even more specific, my controller is called "PCR-50", and the two relevant options are "PCR 1 - Omni" and "PCR 1 - Ch. 1". I think you first need to get a better understanding what that input selection is supposed to mean before you claim my routing is incorrect.
 
Also, it doesn't "call up the MIDI", which I assume you mean the MIDI being sent out by the VSTi. The MIDI sent out by the VSTi is not selected to go anywhere. My MIDI track I am trying to record on is specifically set to record MIDI events from only my external MIDI keyboard.
 
Frankly, I am at a loss as to why this is so difficult to understand. This is all MIDI 101.