Presonus Firestudio and Sonar PE

Hello everyone,

I had a (somewhat embarrassing) experience with a client this weekend wherein Sonar would suffer audio issues.  I'm pretty well convinced that it's because of the well-known problems getting Sonar and the Presonus Firestudio to play nicely together.  So I'm wondering if it's possible to get a rough headcount of anybody out there who has a rock-solid system using Sonar 7 or above and the Presonus Firestudio (especially if you are using more than the native 8 channels at a time).

My initial research is now beginning to suggest that the only real "solution" is to either ditch Sonar or the Firestudio for something else.  That's not really a "solution" so much as changing the "problem", but it's also suboptimal for me:  both products have pretty much exactly the feature set I'm looking for (even disregarding price).

If interested, here's a brief description of my situation:

Though I had originally reported my issues solved about a year ago, I did a session this past weekend and experienced clicks/glitches/dropouts of audio.  The hard part about this is that it happened on two separate computer systems using the Firestudio 2626, with two different versions of Sonar Producer Edition (7.03 and 8.2), and I had previously thought that that both systems were stable at a full track-count (26) for at least 15 minutes.

For sake of vernacular, I using the words with the following definitions:

Click: a discontinuity in the waveform data that creates an audible effect that was unintended.
Pop: an additive unintended noise created in short-term (10 msec or less); note that I didn't experience this
Glitch:  A loss of waveform information in the short-term, wherein the waveform will read as "zero" for the duration before returning to the matching of the input signal.
Dropout:  Dropouts as reported by Sonar, audio record stops completely and the audio engine either shuts down or "restarts"

Adjusting latency didn't seem to affect overall performance, though it might have lengthened the time between issues.  The client couldn't handle the latency beyond a 512-sample buffer delay, so we decided we needed to just suck it up and go with it.  It failed in the Firestudio Normal Mode, and all 3 Safe Modes.  I also adjusted the I/O buffer sizes into the 512-1024 bit range which seemed to help for a bit, but ultimately didn't change things.  I also tried I/O caching.

My first try was on a newer system with the following specs:
1.8 GHz CoreDuo
2 GB RAM
Windows XP32, minor tweaks
Sonar 8.2 PE
Firestudio Drivers were the final release of the "Universal" drivers that came out last year.

My second try was on a system I had thought previously to be rock solid, even with the following specs:
1.8 GHZ Pentium M
1 GB RAM
Windows XP32, major tweaks including disabling ACPI
Sonar 7.3 PE
Firestudio Drivers were the last version before they started the beta-testing of the "Universal" drivers that came out last year.

As mentioned before, I had previously stress-tested both machines and had considered them to be in tracking-shape before I took on the session.  I can't recall any changes to the systems that could impact either machine's performance since those tests, so I'm assuming that my testing was insufficiently complete.

It's interesting to note that the older system was more reliable, and didn't really suffer any clicks/glitches once the track count was knocked down to 4 or less for later in the session (doing vocals and aux tracking).  The new system couldn't get through a single take of a song (roughly 4:30) in its entirety before experiencing a dropout (we switched out after 8 attempts).  Clicks and glitches were typical in the seconds just before a dropout occurred.  No plugins or VSTi's were being used, and at no point did the CPU consumption on either system go above 8%.  The max disk usage as about 60% on the older computer, but that was only during later takes when we had 16+ tracks already recorded.

I'm definitely open to any advice, and I'm really hoping some folks reading this can claim a solid performance with this combination of hardware and software.  Raise your hand if you can say so, please.

Yeah, I'm using a TI chipset PCMCIA card on the older system and a VIA chipset PCe card on the newer system.  Both TI and VIA chipsets have been endorsed as the best bets by Presonus for using their devices (particularly DICE II devices).

Sorry, another vernacular incidence here:

Client - Somebody who is being recorded by me that is not me, a family member, or a good friend (in this case, a band I had met that I offered to record).

That's kind of contrary to the point, since I had originally thought that I had two working systems (I did do about 2 months of tweaking and testing on the new system, and hadn't had any issues with the old system since I had done about 4 months of tweaking and testing years ago).

I appreciate the advice, but it's kind of straying from the subject at hand.  Does anybody have a combination of Sonar and Firestudio that works well, and if so, what is their system like?

Yendor



ASIO or WDM?  Sounds like you're using ASIO.  I had problems intially using ASIO, and after switching to WDM it cleaned most of my issues up  I have a FireStudio Project. 

Also, According to Presonus, have the following in their hardware compatibilty doc:

"Motherboards with nForce4 chipsets. Symptoms include reduced to very poor performance especially if using the onboard firewire connection. Installing a PCIe (not PCI) FW400 only card with an approved chipset is a known workaround, but may not allow full performance."

Now, what that means exactly, I'm not sure, but I am trying to find out from Presonus, currently.  It sounds like it doesn't matter what the Firewire card you're using, it 'may' still cause issues..  I know that certain versions of NVidia have had bugs, but to me Presonus is kinda 'vague' on this. 

Thanks, I'll look into that.  I don't think I've got nVidia nForce4 on either system, but wasn't aware there might be an issue.  I've also dealt with Presonus directly about this issue in the past (trying to get the new system up and running):  their response was basically to blame Sonar (I knew it wasn't the issue because I had two other interfaces that had worked will with Sonar).

I was using ASIO, I can double check on WDM with both systems.  I remember that I tried WDM previously but switched back for some reason.  Am I remembering it correctly that WDM will limit the recordable inputs to 8?  Maybe that's changed with the Universal Driver?

I just went through this. I have a PreSonus Firebox that worked well with Home Studio 7XL, but recently I upgraded to Sonar 8.5 and it never worked. There were possiale several issues going on. One, it appears that one of the firewire ports on the computer quit working and no one can understand why. When I plugged it into the other firewire port the lights on the PreSonus would come on, but Sonar never could recognize it. I also have the PreSonus Audiobox USB, and it will work, but it does some crazy things. The last thing I did last night was try to record two tracks with it. I never could record to two separate tracks simultaneously, and then when I was trouble shooting I turned every control on the PreSonus to ZERO, and I still got a record level on track one. I tried everything I knew and never did get it to work so that I could control the Input level on the PreSonus. I have no idea what's going on, but I've gone as far as I'm going with Presonus and Sonar. I'm going to try a different interface, probably the USB that Cakewalk itself offers, with the USB so I can use it on my laptop.

I always heard a lot of complaints about Pro Tools making the customer use their special interface, and a lot of that probably was to be able to sell something, but the more I learn the more I'm convinced that a big part of that is also for quality control, to insure that the unit actually works with the interface. I'm glad Cakewalk is now offering their own labeled interfaces designed to work with their products.

DS

We're fast getting to the point of dimishing returns on "upgraded" studio software by all the major manufacturers. They'll already do more than the best studio recorders in the world would do not so terribly long ago. Now a lot of it is focused on virtual instruments and effects. It's almost getting like MS and Vista, just re-inventing the wheel, but adding more bloat that substance. (I didn't really need or want five clicks and four questions to turn off my machine.)

They will always be upgrading the recording software, but in reality, what do we really need that we don't already have at this point.  What I see all the recording software companies doing is focusing more on hardware like the interface, and eventually partnering with the computer manufacturers to have, for example, the "Sonar approved Windows X computer" and etc. that a certain percent of Cakewalk users would buy. I also hope they will start making all the Cakewalk software compatible with Apple. I think they tried it before and maybe the timing wasn't right, but maybe the time will come soon when they will try again and it will work.

Unless I've overlooked something, I wonder why Cakewalk doesn't have a more specific listing of "sysem requirement" type guidelines. In other words why not start listing the computers, laptops, manufacturers, OS, and etc that Cakewalk has actually tested and found to be solid and reliably compatible. Same for audio interfaces. We could eliminate a lot of confusion at home and threads here with just a Cakewalk approved list of audio interfaces, for starters. In my mind that benefits Cakewalk as much as the customers. You wouldn't have so many people getting frustrated after spending a lot of money on a new computer and a new Cakewalk program and then they have trouble and blame the mess on Cakewalk when it might very well be a cheap or incompatible interface. Having such a list wouldn't cost them anything, other than the time for someone to sit down and start the list and add to it as time goes on.

Back in the old days of analog there weren't many choices, and the "pro" equipment usually worked right out of the box. You didn't have the massive list of equipment possibilities (software, plugins, etc) and compatibility issues we have today. And quite frankly, it would take a computer tech these days to keep up with it all concerning compatibility. They are going to have to start making it simpler because there is no doubt that the complexity intimidates so many people that they just pick the cheapest and easiest entry level recorder and don't even attempt the higher end stuff], or either they avoid it altogether. The next tech advance is going to have to be in the field of simplicity.

So back to the PreSonus. I heard nothing but good things about them, and I got one. It worked fine with no hitches until I got Sonar. Rather than shelving Sonar I'm shelving PreSonus, and will have yet ANOTHER interface to buy. And it's all so unnecessary if the recording software companies would just keep a running list of approved audio interfaces and computers, specifically listing them by name and model. It shouldn't be that hard to do.

Just my .03, keep the change.

DS

I really try to avoid being one of those people who doesn't like something and then wants everyone else to not like it too. PreSonus came highly recommended to me. When my M-Audio FW 410 went out I got the PreSonus Firebox. Tt worked fine until my last upgrade. During the same time we noticed that one of the firewire ports was bad. I have no idea what went on, but the other port activated the lights on the PreSonus but the recorder wouldn't recognize it. Therefore, I am trying to give the benefit of the doubt to PreSonus now. In fairness, I also have the PreSonus USB Audiobox that I got to use with the laptop that doesn't have firewire ports. I am now using it on the main desk top DAW and it's working fine. I just recorded with it. No latency, no hitch, no glitch, just a smooth operator.

I'm sure PreSonus works fine with most systems. I just had a glitch with the firewire ports I think. This may have been totally unrelated to the PreSonus itself. If I could get away from firewire completely I would. Looks like I already have. I guess if you are a high tech audiophile there might be a reason to use firewire these days, but to me it's becoming less and less apparent. From what I'm hearing, the new USB technology will soon take its place. Of course, many will disagree, and round and round it goes.

DS

pzay


I have a Presonus Firestudio Project which is working flawlessly for my needs. Not sure about my chipset but I have a little faster processor. I also have a Firebox connected to a different computer which works flawlessly with Sonar 8.5, but a much faster processor than you. It took a little work to get the Firestudio to run well. if you would like more details about my setup and specs let me know.
Peter

Yeah, that'd be great.  Thanks.

Moseph

pzay


I have a Presonus Firestudio Project which is working flawlessly for my needs. Not sure about my chipset but I have a little faster processor. I also have a Firebox connected to a different computer which works flawlessly with Sonar 8.5, but a much faster processor than you. It took a little work to get the Firestudio to run well. if you would like more details about my setup and specs let me know.
Peter

Yeah, that'd be great.  Thanks.

Here are my specs with the Firestudio:

Latitude D630 Laptop
Intel 2 Duo T7250 2.00GHz
2.0GB RAM
XP32Bit Professional Service Pack 3

 Laptop settings:

No antivirus
Disabled wireless
Disabled built in sound card
Using built in firewire port
Thats about it...a few other tweaks that I can't remember at the moment



Firestudio settings:

Universal Control (which had to be carefully installed, won't work well if previous driver still has elements left)
I record mostly at 44.1khz
Safe mode 1
256-sample buffer delay is completely stable (when I'm recording live situations of course the buffer can be much higher, also for tracking Universal Control has real time monitoring if you don't need VST effects on the live sound, this works great )

I think I would need more power in my computer to use Normal Mode without any dropouts at the lowest latency.


Sonar 8.5PE with all updates settings:

ASIO
i/o buffers 256
multiprocessing engine on


Comments:

I feel that if the Firestudio is stable with your computer, Sonar should have no trouble at all. I had random dropouts at one point but when I switched to Universal Control it was perfect at all sampling rates. My needs are probably different than yours so this could be a factor but I have to say a lot of tweaking has made my set up stable for me. I've even had Firewire cables which caused dropouts. I know this because I had it with two identical cables made by Monster, then I bought a Belkin and perfect! (a lot of patience troubleshooting that one)

By the way, My Firebox is on a much faster computer, it is rock solid with Sonar 8.5

I hope this helps a little in bringing some stability to you system!

Best

How do you get 26 channels recording at once?  I had the firestudio and 16 of the channels are lightpipe.  Are you using a digital board that has adat cards in it?  If not, I don't think(I maybe wrong) you will be able to get 26 channels at once.  Do you not have the adat channel input options when you switch to wdm drivers?  I didn't see it but make sure you have the latest drivers and firmware installed for the firestudio.  Otherwise I don't think you can even acess all the adat channel options for use.

Moseph,

No, I'm not going beyond 8 channels.  Sorry.

The only way I found to make ASIO changes, is by going into the program via Start>Program Files > Presonu > UCP . 
I only see the mixer in the taskbar and on the desktop shortcut.    I don't get it, but at least I found a way. 

There is a 'new' driver that I haven't tried yet (combines win7 + xp) - maybe they fixed it.

Ah I see.  I had the 2626 and couldn't remember the last 2 inputs.  I always used the asio drivers with my unit and sonar so I didn't deal with the wdm much.  I actually still have the unit just waiting for my buyer to get their funds together.  Do you have all the adat inputs checked on the audio options page?  I always turned my adat sets off so they would never appear as options for channel inputs while tracking. 

Yeah, all the available drivers from the Firestudio are check in the "Audio Drivers" (or whatever it's called) tab in Sonar.  I can understand not having them checked off if you're not using them, but the whole reason I bought the Firestudio was because it had the right I/O configuration for me.  The "right" feature set is one of the reasons I went with Sonar as well.

Really hoping I don't have to dump either of them because of that.  We'll see what happens with more tweaks and testing in the next couple of weeks.

I installed Win 7 Ultimate, Sonar 8.5.3 and have had nothing but problems with my Firestudio.

When I trigger a Soft Synth it is distorted and has a "fluttering pop clicking" to it.

There is nothing wrong with my system or settings, in fact, when I switch to ASIO drivers the Firestudio vanishes!

Yes, I downloaded the latest drivers from Presonus on 11-4-2010.

I am trying to get this to work in tandem with my M-Audio Delta1010LT which has worked flawlessly for years. Arrrgh!

I feel that the new Win7, Presonus drivers and Sonar 8.5.3 don't like to orgy.

Searching a little more and then rolling back to the old versions...all of them.