The BIG Orchestral Library Shootout * * *

I've been faking real instruments electronically since about 1975, and for that entire time the Holy Grail of synthesis has been the ability to create believable strings. Tomita almost did it back then (on an ARP 2600), and although his strings weren't exactly realistic-sounding they were still gorgeously fat and lush. I tried to copy him but never could. Nobody did, as far as I know.

Of course, nowadays you can pull up a sample and easily duplicate Tomita's once-rare hand-crafted patches, or Vangelis' Blade Runner themes, or the synth lead from Lucky Man, and sound just like the originals.

And yet, despite how far we've come, truly believable strings (and horns) are still somewhat elusive. Lots of synthetic-music makers are still on the hunt, as evidenced by the frequency of "what's the best orchestral library" threads on this and other forums. People are wondering if a) what they have is good enough, b) how much better package X would be, c) how much do they really have to spend, and d) if this is even an achievable goal with current technology? With your help we're going to try and find answers to those questions.

Here's the concept in a nutshell: Randy Bowser has put together a small SONAR project that contains 16 MIDI tracks; you download it and then flesh it out with your favorite orchestral library, and the resulting audio will be posted where everyone can hear and compare the results. The idea is that by using a common MIDI project the primary variable will be the library itself, allowing a true comparison not possible with vendor demos.

(No, I'm not discounting your mixing skills. That will be another unavoidable variable. We're hoping to get multiple examples of each library for that reason. So don't be put off from doing a Dim Pro version just because there's already one up there.)

Not many rules to this game, and no prize. You can use whatever effects and mix techniques you like, just keep in mind that the goal is a realistic-sounding orchestra. So flangers and bitcrushers probably won't help toward that end.

We would encourage you to leave the MIDI notes as they are, since modifying them would make comparisons more difficult. The objective is a comparison of libraries, not your compositional talent. Feel free to add articulation keyswitches, controller events and automation. Transposing is also acceptable. Just leave the audible notes and tempos alone.

It'll be fun. The piece is only a minute long, and you'll be making an important contribution to a body of knowledge that currently does not exist anywhere else, so please help us out. I want to especially appeal to those fortunate enough to have high-end libraries such as LASS and VSL, since relatively few of us have access to that level of instrument. (But let's not forget the entry-level tools, either.)

The project file and a sample MP3 (created by Randy using only the TTS-1) can be found here.

See post #5 for the email address to send your submissions to. Please include your real name, forum handle, the library(s) used and any other relevant information such as special mixing, automation or processing techniques that you used. File sizes aren't a big concern, so you might as well make 256 or 320kb/s CBR MP3s for best audio quality.

Funny you should pick that piece.
I have listened to it a million times - but despite it being a real orchestra, I always thought there were parts of it that sounded synthetic. Maybe it was just the mix.

This should be VERY interesting.

Jose7822


I guess I'll be the first volunteer :-)

Will try to post the results later tonight, or early tomorrow.

Nice, Jose! - What we want to do is collect all of these and put them on a web page.  That way people can easily compare between the various recordings.  AND for now we want them to be anonymous, with the listing of soft synth(s) used kept a secret.  This way we can do a "blind taste test."

When you have an MP3 - go ahead and send it to me.  I'll be uploading them to the webpage made just for this:

SEND YOUR ORCHESTRAL SHOOTOUT MP3s HERE!

In the subject line say something about the Sonar Orchestral event to help your email stand out. 
AND - Please include your full name, your Sonar Forum user name, and list whatever soft synths you used.

Thanks.

Randy B.

I just opened the project and I see I will definitely need to manipulate the notes a little in order to fit this into my template and make it sound as good as it can. 
 
I won't add any rhythmic variations though.  Hope this is OK.

Take care!

Hi, Jose
"...I see I will definitely need to manipulate the notes a little in order to fit this into my template..."

I don't know exactly what you mean, since a template is layout of tracks, synths, buses etc - and so it can accommodate MIDI tracks in whatever form they're in.  Maybe you're talking about some velocity value work, and there's probably some hard quantizing you'd like to loosen up.

The main thing is that the MIDI file's basic shape not be changed to any great degree, since the idea is to hear the same MIDI arrangement as played in different soft synths.

This dovetails into Billy "Ba-Midi's" question about EQ.  Absolutely use EQ, reverbs, effects - produce it in a way that's customary with your work, showing off your software instruments to the best of your ability.

Randy B.

Jose7822


What I mean is, for example the string section is all in one MIDI file.  On my template these are separated each onto its own track.  This means moving notes around from one track to another, but I may just work-around this somehow.  I was also refering to loosen/tighten and even change the length of some notes as well (but not anything that will impact the arrangement per say).  I'm kinda a neat freak sometimes, so I like having things looking neat.  Hope this is OK :-P.

Oh, I see - Actually there are 5 separate tracks of strings in that file - Are you opening the .cwp file and not seeing 16 MIDI tracks, with channels 12 through 16 being for strings?

But it's expected that to accommodate this file to whatever software people are using, that tracks may need to be moved around, doubled maybe, whatever has to be done to make it fit the way people are accustomed to working with their instruments.

--Hmmm, you like your notes to look tidy?  hehe--OK, --um, with musicality of the results having more importance though, right?

Just do try to keep editing the notes to a minimum.  We can't have new tracks being recorded and added, or massive changes of any sort being made.  Really, I think we've covered it - Use this MIDI file, make a recording with that data using your software instruments.  Produce the heck out of it, just keep editing of the file itself to a minimum.

Here's an example of something I think it would be fine to change - you may find a passage which is overly quantized, like I mentioned earlier, and you know it'll sound better if that bit is humanized more - I think that has to be fine.  That's the kind of work we do on a regular basis to make good recordings.

Just don't change the arrangement, keep hard editing to a minimum.

Randy B.

jsaras


I submitted an entry.  The General MIDI file will not show off what can be done with the high-end libraries and mixing makes a HUGE difference with any orchestral sound set, particularly the ones that were recorded "dry". 

Thanks, Jonas!

That's an interesting thing you've said about how you don't think a GM file can show off what can be done with high-end libraries - It makes me wonder if Bitflipper and I have over-stated things about what can and can't be done with this informal test we're running.

I think we all understand that the MIDI file has to be instantly recognizable as the same arrangement everyone is using, but that doesn't preclude someone from doing anything and everything they know how to do when working with their software instruments.  If it means inserting keyswitched articulations, that's fine.  If it means substituting instrumentation or doubling it, I think that's also fine. 

I do think a high-end library can be shown off with this or Any MIDI file - it's all in the doing, in wielding the software confidently.

And we want people to do as much mixing as they want - whatever plug-ins, reverbs, effects they want to use - Of course, any software library needs to be produced - we want people to do that.  If you're fortunate enough to be using a library which is dry (the most flexible kind of samples) then naturally you'll want to use reverb in the recording, according to your taste.

Thanks again!

Randy B.

Good idea.
 
How long are you going to keep this open? I would like to give it ago using the Kirk Hunter KHSO stuff from the Independence Pro library, but I won't be home until the end of the month.
 
 

Jsaras has a point. Although leaving the MIDI information unchanged will level the playing field and allow the various string libraries to be compared, I think we need an enormous caveat which is: This will not show off what the libraries can do.

If all you are looking for is to bring up a string patch and let it be, fine. But many of these libraries use different tricks to emulate the true subtleties of a string section: The MIDI controller information and tricks you'd tweak for Synful Orchestra (delay expression) is different from that which you would use for Garritan Personal (CC26 and mod wheel or expression pedal).

So - it is what it is. I can imagine a truly awesome and flexible string library may come off looking third rate in a straight generic MIDI comparison. 

Hey I'll join in the fun.

Thing is, I won't be able to start on it until Sunday at the earliest - will this be ok with the rest of you guys?

Hi, great idea guys.

I'm going on holiday tomorrow for a couple of weeks and was just trying to get a version I worked on late last night out to you before the end of the day. When I went to test export to MP3 in my 8.5.3 producer I get the error message "The MP3 encoder must be unlocked before use" I thought MP3 encoder was an integral part of the Producer package, whats going on there? I have to pop out for a while now, so hopefully if someone can provide a steer for me on this when I return I will have a better chance of getting this out tonight. I got carried away by the challenge as it's not my usual genre and worked till 0340am this morning on this, so it would be good to get it out.


Garry Kiosk

Good morning to all - This is great, to see Bitflipper's thread generating some interest and good discussion!

Thank you ba_midi and bit for already replying to Stickman.  I want to underline what's been said in response to this from Stickman:

"...I think we need an enormous caveat which is: This will not show off what the libraries can do.

If all you are looking for is to bring up a string patch and let it be, fine. But many of these libraries use different tricks to emulate the true subtleties of a string section: The MIDI controller information and tricks you'd tweak for Synful Orchestra (delay expression) is different from that which you would use for Garritan Personal (CC26 and mod wheel or expression pedal)..."

The idea is, as Billy said, to indeed use all the controls which are unique to the library you're using.  DO NOT simply run this MIDI arrangement through the library and accept the results.  MIDI controller data should be used as thoroughly as you want, and the mix itself should be produced equally as thoroughly as you want.

Any given piece of music will present its own limitations, since no one piece covers all the possible dynamics which instruments are capable of.  This particular piece is big and bombastic, not touching on the quieter dynamics found in more serious classical pieces - it just calls for what it does.

So it's not true that this MIDI file can't show off high-end software - Of course it can.  It doesn't cover the full range of possibilities, but it covers what it does, and all libraries used for these recordings are covering the same range - that's why it's a valid comparison.

Spend however many hours it takes to make the most of this with what you're using.  As Bitflipper said, there's no deadline - this can be on-going as long as people want to create more recordings for the collection.

Go forth and and create the best thing you can!

Randy B.

Why are so many people having problems with the instructions for this test? Either you can't read right or I'm clairvoyant.

Use the data as-is, add all the extra articulation and automation as needed for your particular library. It seems generally the implied idea is create something that really goes for the brass ring for whatever library you're using so go for it! But, the violin still needs to play a "C" at that point in time (for example)...does that need to be made any more clear? 

I'm gonna do one with an 808. And I'm gonna change the beat around. Annnnd I'm gonna get ride of a bunch of stuff I don't need and add some new parts. Basically I'm just going to upload the Human League's "Don't you want me?"

This is a great opportunity to listen & learn about the various Libs and the techniques for making them sound great.
 
Thanks to you and Randy for your leadership in getting this interesting exercise underway!
<Thundering, well-articulated, tastefully mixed, digital orchestral arrangement and audience applaud can be heard in the background>

Shane_B.


I'd like to participate. I have some old SF2 GM banks that I'd like to try out just for the heck of it. Randy helped me get the SFZ+ Player going a while back on my 64bit rig so this should be fun. I don't have net access at home so I'll work on it this weekend and post an MP3 on Monday when I get in to town.
 
This is a great thread! Thanks Randy and bitflipper.
 
Shane B.
 
 

Excellent, Shane - Glad you're joining in.  That's a great idea to use a GM Sound Font bank, and the SFZ+ is the perfect thing to do this with since it's multi-timbral.

This sequence was arranged by someone only known to us as "GaryW0001@aol.com" - You can see his credit listed in the file's Markers, along with credit for "Blue Max Distribution" which apparently is a company name he used for himself.  The date is 1998 - so it's old information.  I wrote to Gary, but that email no longer exists.  I tried the address spelled with zeros and then with capital "O's" but neither work.  I wanted to let him know that we wanted to use his work for this purpose.

So we've tried to contact him, and we're giving him credit - I made sure his info was included in the file, even though it's outdated.  I'm sure he'd enjoy knowing that what he did back then is still alive, and that it's being used for this educational, not-for-profit purpose.

He developed this and other MIDI files to demonstrate a great GM Sound Font bank he developed called "Unison."  I discovered it some years back when searching around the SF sites online.  It's a great set and I've used instruments from that collection now and then.  It might still be available if you want to look around for it.

Use the email link on this thread to send in your MP3 when you have it ready - I'm looking forward to hearing it!

Randy B.