Anyone Use an A300/500/500 Pro as Sonar Control Surface?

Is anyone successfully using the new Cakewalk AN00 Pro controllers with Sonar?  Please speak up if you are, because I'm having nothing but frustrations.
 
I have spent hours trying to decipher the manual for the A500 Pro, and I must say that I'm extremely disappointed at the quality of the documentation and/or accompanying editor software.  CW/Roland really dropped the ball on this one.
 
While I do like the feel of the keyboard and the construction seems solid, it's next to impossible to figure out how to use it in any fashion other than the original setup as it comes out of the box.  I am a technologist and have no problem with documentation that makes sense.  Sonar, for example, is a far more complex product, but I find its 1200+ pages of documentation to be thoroughly comprehensible.  Not so with the A500 Pro manual.
 
Let me provide an example.  On page 21 of the manual we are told "a control map is an object that describes how MIDI settings are assigned to the various controller" and "the A-Pro provides 19 control maps".  We are told to refer to the control map guide for details.  So, we open the control map guide and find a listing for 19 control maps that work with everything from Logic to Band in a Box.  But Sonar?  No where to be found.  What the ...?  Oh wait, apparently there's a control map 0.  Maybe that's the one to use with Sonar (not that it's mentioned anywhere).  So let's try to load it in the editor to change one of the slider CC numbers.  No luck.  We can only get control maps 1 thru 19 loaded into the editor.  And so on ...
 
Seriously, I've become so frustrated that I'd send the unit back if I could, but I waited too long and that's no longer an option.  Maybe it's just me and others are finding this to be a ... well, a cakewalk.  Not so here, I'm afraid.

Don't know whether pro 500 is any different from pcr 500, but in midi devices i had to check pcr 2 for input and just pcr for out put, then in controllers and surfaces, from the drop down list picked pcr 2 for input and pcr for out put, sonar might view the pro 500 under edirol pcr 300, have a look and check that

the edirol editor kets you create your own maps from inside the program and send them to the controller as midi messages, bulk too, they have obviously taken a step back with the pro 500, i wouldn't swap my pcr for it, put it that way, it's exterior design is similar to the pcr, but the pcr has more i think

First, I agree the documentation is lacking.  That may be because it's an Edirol (rather than Cakewalk) product.  Whatever, it should really be improved.  Really.

Second, I understand your frustration, but I think you're being overly harsh (about the A-PRO).  My A-PRO is hardly a boat anchor - it worked pretty well in my initial tests, although I didn't try to use control maps (I just used ACT).   My studio is still in pieces, but I dug out my A-PRO docs and have a few suggestions.

1.  Make sure you have the Sonar Control Surface installed into Sonar.
There's a sheet with the manual called 'Controlling SONAR or SONAR LE from the A-PRO Series".  If you don't have the sheet, find it or ask me to scan it and email it to you.
Here's a quick recap of the steps:
a).  Open the A-PRO_CSP folder on the A-PRO CD-ROM.   Double-click setup.exe and follow the instructions (do this with Sonar shut down - not running).
b) Launch SONAR.  Click Options - Controllers/Surfaces.
c) Click the Plus button.  You should get a Controller/Surfaces dialog box
d) Set Controller/Surface to 'A-PRO'.  Set Input port to A-PRO 2.  Set Output Port to A-PRO.
e) Click Close to close the Controller/Surfaces dialog box.
Sonar and the A-PRO will have a conversation, to configure things.  Wait a bit.
* You might have to press the ACT button on the A-PRO so that it's lit.

Then, click Tools > A-PRO-1 (or something similar).  You should see the 'A-PRO Control Surface Plug-in' dialog, which has tons of graphical buttons, sliders, etc. for the A-PRO

2. There are various ways to assign controllers using ACT.  This affects binding A-PRO controls to Sonar functions (plugin parameters, track volumes, etc.).  If you want to use A-PRO controllers to generate MIDI CC's directly, you'll probably have to "change the ACT map" (a Sonar function) to unbind some of the A-PRO controls from ACT functions (so that ACT doesn't try to use those particular knobs, sliders or buttons), and use an A-PRO control  map to configure those physical controls.  I haven't used control maps, so I can't offer advice on that.

3.  From reading the A-PRO manual, it seems likely that if you "assign MIDI messages" as described on pages 48-56 --- you will indeed LOSE your settings if you turn off the power.  Which is lame, I agree.  This seems likely to me because a) I've worked with other products where settings in the 'edit buffer' are lost when power is turned off, and b) there's no apparent way (mentioned in the manual) to store MIDI assigments, made on the A-PRO, into a particular control map location.  Which is a very strange oversight, if that's true.

So what can you do?  From the manual, it seems like you can use the PC software to a) edit a control map, and b) transmit a control map to a particular control map location in the A-PRO.  This will, of course, overwrite whatever's in that location, so you might want to save the control map first (in a file on your PC).  Presumably, once you save (transmit) a control map to a particular A-PRO location, that control map will be retained even if you power-cycle the A-PRO.  (I hope so; haven't checked).

Can you combine ACT and control map settings?  I don't know; haven't tried.  From some posts in a different forum - it seems not.

For current docs, see http://www.roland.com/pro...RODUCT=A-500PRO.  The Sonar-specific sheet isn't up there - more's the pity.

Also - I was going to steer you to the Keyboard Controllers & Sound Modules forum, but I see you're already posting there.

Good luck,
Jim

Hey guys!

I really don't get where your problems are coming from.

ACT is great on the A-PRO and it's a really good keyboard overall! Please stop spreading misinformation.

If you wan't to make your own assignments, just use the editor and remember to transmit the settings to the keyboard. Of course they are remembered when you switch it off.

Best Regards
Ludvig

Jim Wright

From reading the A-PRO manual, it seems likely that if you "assign MIDI messages" as described on pages 48-56 --- you will indeed LOSE your settings if you turn off the power.  Which is lame, I agree.  This seems likely to me because a) I've worked with other products where settings in the 'edit buffer' are lost when power is turned off, and b) there's no apparent way (mentioned in the manual) to store MIDI assigments, made on the A-PRO, into a particular control map location.  Which is a very strange oversight, if that's true.

So what can you do?  From the manual, it seems like you can use the PC software to a) edit a control map, and b) transmit a control map to a particular control map location in the A-PRO.  This will, of course, overwrite whatever's in that location, so you might want to save the control map first (in a file on your PC).  Presumably, once you save (transmit) a control map to a particular A-PRO location, that control map will be retained even if you power-cycle the A-PRO.  (I hope so; haven't checked).
 

Jim, thanks for your detailed response.  I haven't actually even gotten around to using the A500 as a control surface yet.  I'm just struggling with setting it up as a controller that will be used as a control surface once I get the basics figured out.  The documentation states that you can (allegedly) have a default control map be loaded when you power up.  This would solve it everything if ...
 
1. you could create a control map for ACT use with Sonar ... the default control map 0 is presumably for use with Sonar and you cannot edit it or copy it as a template for a custom control map ... and
 
2. edit both ACT and not ACT controller values in the editor (in ACT your sliders are probably for track level control, in non-ACT for things like CC1) ... and
 
3. the control maps you transmit from the editor are retained in the controller when power is disrupted (haven't tried ... but I'd expect this to be the case)
 
If you could do all of those things, I think you could create a custom setting that would serve both regular and ACT operations and you'd end up a very happy camper.
 
My goodness, I hope this is all some nasty side affect of bad documentation and all that's needed is a proper explanation to clear things up.

>> I haven't actually even gotten around to using the A500 as a control surface yet.  I'm just struggling with setting it up as a controller that will be used as a control surface once I get the basics figured out. 

If you want to use the A500 as a control surface with Sonar - the first thing you should do is get ACT working between Sonar and the A500. Forget about control maps for now!  The A500 was designed to use ACT with Sonar (far more so than the earlier PCR series).  Built-in ACT support is a big reason why I got the A500, and my early experience with it was quite positive.  (Work/family commitments have kept me from doing anything with it lately, but I hope to change that soon).

Once you have ACT working, and have explored what you can and can't do with ACT - then it might make sense to try a hybrid ACT + control map approach.  Maybe.

If you don't have the one-page 'A-Pro and Sonar sheet', pm me and I'll scan it and email it to you.
Edit: the 'A-PRO and Sonar' sheet (2-page PDF) is available here:
http://www.cakewalk.com/s...er.aspx?ID=2007012938#
There's also an updated driver.

- Jim