How to get descret Midi Channels for inserted synths. (SOLVED!)

Hi everyone...
I am not really sure if this should go in the Software forum, or the Sonar form or here in the techniques. I chose to ask it here since I am wanting to know "How to". So If I am posting in the wrong place then let me say I'm sorry upfront....
 
I know this is a long post and I am sorry but I thought that I needed to explain in detail so that you may be able to better understand my problem and help me.......
 
One of the questions I have I have been wanting to solve for a few years now. The second question just came about but it piggy backs on the first.
 
I am sure it is becuase I am NOT doing something correct.  
 
Let's start with my machine first please...
Windows XP Home
32 bit, 3 gig of RAM, 2.5 Hz (or there abouts)
Quad core
Sonar PE 8.5.3
Roland Edirol FA-101 Firewire interface
M-Audio 49 note Keyboard for triggering...forgot the model name...sorry...but it is just a triggering keyboard...no on board sounds etc......
 
So really no physical issues running software. It's a good machine!
 
OK....The questions. They both are concerning "Descrete" Midi Channels. Because they are not turning out that way. (I have been trying to solve this since Sonar 4 for my self)
 
Question 1
1. When in sonar and I want a synth...Well actually two synths...any synths to play (I already under stand that there will be a Midi Track and a Audio track and the Midi Information needs to be sent to the Audio track in order to hear the synth......No issues here and this is NOT the question)
 
Here is what I will do :
I go to the "insert" drop down menu in the tool bar
I scroll down and choose soft synth.......(for this example let's say Superior Drummer 2)
I click on it and get the Dialog box that you need to choose either Mono outputs / or All stereo out puts and other configurations etc....
 
I will usually always choose:
1. Use a track folder
2. All stereo outputs (becuase at some point I may want to configure it as a multiple output )
3. Enable Midi Source Track
 
SD2 opens nicely, it plays well and at this point it's out put is a simple stereo out put for the entire kit. (even though several other channels (with only one Midi Track) are inserted in to the Track folder waiting to be assigned for multiple out puts)
 
But for now let's just stay with SD2 as a simple Stereo output.
 
Now I go back and use the same Insert technique as above for a different synth......let's just say Rapture...
 
Rapture opens up.... I choose a program to play and it plays.......
 
THE QUESTION  !!!!!
I have both synths inserted and ready to go.....How ever when I strike a key on my M-Audio keyboard BOTH    synths will play.....I cannot seperate them.......
 
Let's say I want to audition some Rapture Programs...I choose a program and both the SD2 samples will play as well as the Rapture Program....
 
The only way I can get a seperate sound is to Mute the SD2 so that Rapture will play on it's own......As I am sure you can tell it is hard to find out what will work it Rapture if the SD2 is muted.....and of course Visa Versa......
 
What I am I not doing?   I am under the impression that if I select the SD2 track only the SD2 synth will play....If I select the Rapture track only the Rapture track will play.......or am I mistaken???
 
Question 2
Like I said this piggy backs on to the first question.......for this example let's use both Superior Drummer 2 and Native Instruments Kore 2.
 
Let's say I have already inserted both instruments as I have explained above......However this time we go a step further...
 
SD2........
I have SD2 Gui opened.....I open the Mixer page and in the output section select multipule outputs......since I preplanned for multiple outputs when inserting SD2 originally SD2 will automatically configure the set up for me.......no problem......each channel (and I am going to use the term audio channel here becuase it is not a midi channel....there is only one midi channel in this folder and each piece of the drum kit is automatically sent to it's own audio channel) No issues with this.....
 
Now I choose to insert Kore 2......I again use the technique as stated above but this time I will choose Kore 2, 2x16 (because I want to use this synth as a multi timbral instrument)
Here is a video I found on You tube on how to do this in Abelton Live.....there is also one for Logic Pro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuO-vlniG1s&p=9B639BA36547A02B&playnext=1&index=9
 
I watched both this one and the one for Logic Pro....Please do the same as it will save a lot of writing here......I tried to follw and adapt the Abelton Live version first but it did not work out for me....so then I next tried to adapt the Logic Pro version but that did not work out for me either....
 
After following the above video steps here is my result......
 
I opened Kore 2
Assigned Midi channels
Assigned outputs
 
Went into the Kore 2 folder in my Sonar Project...
 
I inserted 8 midi channels and I configured each midi channel to output to it's own audio channel (since when I inserted Kore 2 initially Sonar place 8 audio channels into this folder)
I then configured each Midi channel to run on it's own descret Channel.....ie...Midi Track one's channel to 1, Midi Track 2 to Midi channel 2, Midi Track 3 to Midi Channel 3...etc.....
 
I then inserted a Kore Sample into the first track (on Midi Channel 1 as show in the video)
I then inserted a Kore Sample into the Second Track (on Midi Channel 2 as shown in the Video)
Etc....
 
my result was that when I hit a key on my M-Audio keyboard All the Midi tracks would show incoming data and only my track one would sound.....I was never able to get seperate tracks.....
 
MY Question
 
How do I get Descrete Midi Midi Channels so that I can use Kore 2 as a Multi Tambrial instrument?
 
 
Thank you for any and all help you can shed on what the Heck I'm doing wrong or not understanding  or not doing?
 

Phillp

Your answer for #1

good to know.....I will check all them items when I get home from work tonite.....cause I did not know.......

For you Answer for question #2
I am not really sure that I REALLY understand.....I mean I think I do.....but then again I work on a very simple level.....

simply put I would really like to have say one multi-instrument say with 4 instruments inside it. Each instrument using it's own midi channel to play their individual parts......

I may be making a bigger deal out of this than it is....But I think that when one does not know something the question sometimes is bigger than the problem....

But again....you also gave me a reference to Jose and I will seek his advice.....so again....Thank you....

Your advice has been very valuable
Thank you
Clifford

THE QUESTION  !!!!!
I have both synths inserted and ready to go.....How ever when I strike a key on my M-Audio keyboard BOTH    synths will play.....I cannot seperate them.......
 
Let's say I want to audition some Rapture Programs...I choose a program and both the SD2 samples will play as well as the Rapture Program....
 
The only way I can get a seperate sound is to Mute the SD2 so that Rapture will play on it's own......As I am sure you can tell it is hard to find out what will work it Rapture if the SD2 is muted.....and of course Visa Versa......
 
What I am I not doing?   I am under the impression that if I select the SD2 track only the SD2 synth will play....If I select the Rapture track only the Rapture track will play.......or am I mistaken???

on the track you don't want to play, you need to change the INPUT to NONE.  if you still have your input on both MIDI tracks set to the m-audio then they will both be triggered by the MIDI input sent by the keyboard.

MY Question
 
How do I get Descrete Midi Midi Channels so that I can use Kore 2 as a Multi Tambrial instrument?

I'm not 100% certain I know exactly what you're trying to do.  do you want all of your kore MIDI tracks to trigger all synth outputs or do you want to switch between them?  that's what I'm unclear on.

if you want to switch between them, then set up your keyboard to send different outputs for different channels, then set up each midi track with different input channels from your keyboard.

if you want them all to trigger the same notes but to different instruments, you'll need to set up separate MIDI tracks with the same keyboard input channel for every channel on Kore you want an output for.

Hey guys!

I got PM'ed by Philip, so here I am.  Hope I can be of help :-)

Personally, I would simplify the whole multi-timbral scheme with the use of 'Simple Instrument' tracks.  The only time I use multiple outputs on instruments is when dealing with drum synths, when I want to use my own plugins for tone shaping.  However, the OP owns Superior Drummer 2 which has an integrated Mixer with great routing capabilities and a good set of quality plugins.  So again, unless he wants to use his own plugins, I would insert SD2 as a Simple Instrument track and process the drums internally. 

Simple Instrument tracks, as the name implies, are just simple to use and they have several advantages over the multi-out method.  Firstly, they provide a clean work space with less clutter by greatly reducing the number of tracks needed in a project.  And secondly, they spread the CPU load more evenly, since each track/bus in Sonar (or any other Multi-threaded DAWs for that matter) get their own thread.  Thus using several instances of a synth spreads out better than using one instance with several instruments loaded.  I guess we're so used to the (what I call "old") multi-output method that it seems hard for us to move away from it.  But I'm glad Cakewalk introduced Simple Instrument tracks into Sonar, cause they simply rock!

In short, experiment with inserting each synth as a Simple Instrument track.  You may like that workflow better...or not.

Try it!

Beagle

THE QUESTION  !!!!!
I have both synths inserted and ready to go.....How ever when I strike a key on my M-Audio keyboard BOTH    synths will play.....I cannot seperate them.......
 
Let's say I want to audition some Rapture Programs...I choose a program and both the SD2 samples will play as well as the Rapture Program....
 
The only way I can get a seperate sound is to Mute the SD2 so that Rapture will play on it's own......As I am sure you can tell it is hard to find out what will work it Rapture if the SD2 is muted.....and of course Visa Versa......
 
What I am I not doing?   I am under the impression that if I select the SD2 track only the SD2 synth will play....If I select the Rapture track only the Rapture track will play.......or am I mistaken???

on the track you don't want to play, you need to change the INPUT to NONE.  if you still have your input on both MIDI tracks set to the m-audio then they will both be triggered by the MIDI input sent by the keyboard.

MY Question
 
How do I get Descrete Midi Midi Channels so that I can use Kore 2 as a Multi Tambrial instrument?

I'm not 100% certain I know exactly what you're trying to do.  do you want all of your kore MIDI tracks to trigger all synth outputs or do you want to switch between them?  that's what I'm unclear on.

if you want to switch between them, then set up your keyboard to send different outputs for different channels, then set up each midi track with different input channels from your keyboard.

if you want them all to trigger the same notes but to different instruments, you'll need to set up separate MIDI tracks with the same keyboard input channel for every channel on Kore you want an output for.

 
Begal
Thanks for the answer.....I would have responsded over the week end but I do not have internet access at home at this time......so I am limited to what I can do at work right now.....
 
Ok to answer your question ... I hope to be clearer on what I am trying to do...
 
Let's say Kore for talking.....
 
1. I do not configure my M-Audio Keyborad at all in the input / out put sections of either the Audio or midi channels.....I simply use the keyboard to trigger sounds... I only route the synths...
 
 
Midi channel:
Input: Kore 2, 2x16
Output: Kore 2 Stereo output  (1 for track one, 2 for track 2 etc..)
Channel: 1 (for track 1, 2 for track 2, 3 for channel 3 etc....)
 
Audio
Input: Kore 2, 2x16
Output: I will usually assign a seperate buss for each synth
 
2. what I am trying to do is to simply use Kore to house say 4 different "sounds" and route each of these sounds to their own midi channels and then to their own audio channels.
 
I hope this helps you understand my confusion.
 
Clifford 

Jose7822


Hey guys!

I got PM'ed by Philip, so here I am.  Hope I can be of help :-)

Personally, I would simplify the whole multi-timbral scheme with the use of 'Simple Instrument' tracks.  The only time I use multiple outputs on instruments is when dealing with drum synths, when I want to use my own plugins for tone shaping.  However, the OP owns Superior Drummer 2 which has an integrated Mixer with great routing capabilities and a good set of quality plugins.  So again, unless he wants to use his own plugins, I would insert SD2 as a Simple Instrument track and process the drums internally. 

Simple Instrument tracks, as the name implies, are just simple to use and they have several advantages over the multi-out method.  Firstly, they provide a clean work space with less clutter by greatly reducing the number of tracks needed in a project.  And secondly, they spread the CPU load more evenly, since each track/bus in Sonar (or any other Multi-threaded DAWs for that matter) get their own thread.  Thus using several instances of a synth spreads out better than using one instance with several instruments loaded.  I guess we're so used to the (what I call "old") multi-output method that it seems hard for us to move away from it.  But I'm glad Cakewalk introduced Simple Instrument tracks into Sonar, cause they simply rock!

In short, experiment with inserting each synth as a Simple Instrument track.  You may like that workflow better...or not.

Try it!
 
 
Jose
 
Thank you for chimming in here......and Thankyou to Philip for asking you to assist....
 
I was trying to stay away from having to insert several instances of say Kore.....I thought that would be more CPU taxing....besides it seems more and more instruments are being built with multiple outs that I thous=ght this was the way to go.....
 
I have never used simple instrument tracks before.....so I guess I will have to try that......
 
That being said I do have the Garritan Aria Player for his GPO and have had limited success with getting multiple tracks to play....I've done it but like I said Limited success.....
 
That being said I am going to need to be more successful with that cause I want to continue writing symphonic music.......and will need the multi track capability.....
 
with SD2 you are correct it is very easy to set it up as a multi output....and I 99% of the time will cause I like to work on the mix and sound of the kit'e individual pieces.....
 
Now if you had a little time to check out that video link I provided in my original post it made it look so easy......so I thought to my simple little self "come on How hard can it be???? "     Yeah right!   LOL
 
but even if in the end I do not use this technique I still really would like to know how to do it.......so if you do know and can shed any light on what the heck I'm doing wrong then I would appreciate it....
 
Thank you
Clifford

No problem Clifford!

I suggested the Simple Instrument track route for Kore since you're using different musical instruments and it makes more sense (at least to me) to use one track for each instrument instead of the multi-out method.  If I'm gonna be using instruments that have multiple articulations (i.e. orchestral instruments) I STILL use Simple Instrument tracks, but I do so in a different way.  It is up to you if you choose to use this method or not, of course.  But I think this is the best method because it provides me with the most flexibility for composing and mixing, and it also avoids cluttering the project with a large number of tracks.  Here's what I do:

1. I start by inserting EWQL PLAY (Aria Player in your case) as a Simple Instrument track.  I'll have the "Simple Instrument track" and "Synth Property Page" options selected in the Insert Synth dialog box in Sonar.  These are the only options I check whenever I insert Simple Instrument tracks, btw.
2. Start loading the articulations you'll be using for that particular instrument.  First, I need to clarify that I ONLY load the articulations I need for a single orchestral instrument (i.e. Violins I) into each instance of EWQL PLAY, and each articulation has their own MIDI channel assigned.  For example, Violins I Legato = Ch1, Violins I Staccato = Ch2, Violins I Tremolo = Ch3, etc.  The MIDI channel assignment for each articulation is done inside PLAY (or Aria Player).  My orchestral template contains 27 instances of PLAY and it is arranged in the way you would see instruments in an orchestral score.  Here's a screenshot: http://www.screencast.com/users/Jose7822/folders/Jing/media/42ade498-c084-413e-b5b6-1e99e48c4b0a
3. To change articulations, I use the Event Inspector in Sonar.  That way you're able to switch between articulations on the same MIDI track.  It's one of the coolest things in Sonar, that is not present in all DAWs.  So I basically select a group of notes, change their MIDI channel to correspond with the articulation I want and I'm done.  As per our example above, if I want certain notes to play Staccato notes, I simply select those notes in PRV and change their MIDI channel to Ch2 in the Event Inspector.  I have it set as a Toolbar in my Sonar GUI for easy access as shown in the following screenshot: http://www.screencast.com/users/Jose7822/folders/Jing/media/dfc5c33e-25a2-41d6-b1f7-95e441bf4236
4. Repeat the above steps for the other orchestral instruments.

By the way, the last screenshot is an older version of my template as you can see from the track count.  I use the "Chn" box on the far right of the Event Inspector toolbar to change my MIDI channels after selecting the notes I want to modify (since they'll default to Ch1 in Sonar).  Again, you need to make sure you change each loaded articulation's MIDI channel in your Garritan Aria Player for each instance of the player.  I have EWQL PLAY do this automatically, but I'm sure the Aria Player has a similar feature included.

So how is this method more flexible?  Well, you now have a single MIDI/Audio track for each of your orchestral instruments instead of using multiple MIDI tracks for each articulation.  Simple Instrument tracks enable you to view a complete part instead of having to merge several MIDI tracks in order for you to see the complete picture.  This means I can see the complete first violins part by double-clicking on its MIDI clip, as opposed to selecting several MIDI tracks in PRV.  When I'm done composing, I can simply start mixing without the need to bounce/freeze/export my tracks to use in a mixing project.  The tracks are already layed out the way you'd want them (without clutter) and you can just start adding FX into the Simple Instrument track's FX Bin just as you would in regular audio tracks.  You can have both MIDI and audio automation too!  To avoid clutter, I embed the MIDI automation (or CC data) into the MIDI clip and use audio automation on the track inside the clip pane.  Another advantage of this method is not having keyswitches cluttering your score if you need to print your music.

As you can see, there are lots of advantages for using Simple Instrument tracks.  I personally couldn't live without them anymore.  It's one of the BEST features in Sonar, IMHO.


HTH

No problem Cliff!

Just let me know when you're ready.  I trust you're gonna love this workflow as much as I do.

I know you wanted to wait, but I'll answer your question since I'm here.  I believe it is best to work from Sibelius into Sonar, rather than the other way around, and there's 3 main reasons for this.  Firstly, Sonar's score editor is ancient and lacks many features that full blown score editors have.  Secondly, you can easily clean things up in Sonar by enabling the Controllers Lane (press "C" on your QWERTY keyboard) in PRV.  Zoom out until the projects fits in your screen and proceed by scanning and deleting any unwanted controller data.  You could alternatively use the Event List View (which is different from the Event Inspector, btw) to further delete any unwanted Program Patch data.  Lastly, it would be time consuming to unhumanize the MIDI clips in Sonar in order for them to transfer cleanly (as in having the appropriate note lengths) into Sibelius, or any other score editor for that matter. 

If you already have a professional score editor, compose there first and then bring the MIDI files into Sonar.  It will make your life much easier.  I only suggested using the score editor in Sonar in case you didn't already have one.


Take care!

"Event Inspector"
 
That's it!  Thanks Jose for taking so much patience and time (again and again) to explain your most excellent work flow for MIDI toggling of orchestral instruments.
 
I'll forever bookmark this thread.
 
In the past couple months or so I have followed your suggestions more and more as Win7/64 has proven itself on various levels.  If I ever get orchestral hacking with EWQL HS (a week or 2?) ... your info will resurrect big-time for me.

Jose7822


No problem Cliff!

Just let me know when you're ready.  I trust you're gonna love this workflow as much as I do.

I know you wanted to wait, but I'll answer your question since I'm here.  I believe it is best to work from Sibelius into Sonar, rather than the other way around, and there's 3 main reasons for this.  Firstly, Sonar's score editor is ancient and lacks many features that full blown score editors have.  Secondly, you can easily clean things up in Sonar by enabling the Controllers Lane (press "C" on your QWERTY keyboard) in PRV.  Zoom out until the projects fits in your screen and proceed by scanning and deleting any unwanted controller data.  You could alternatively use the Event List View (which is different from the Event Inspector, btw) to further delete any unwanted Program Patch data.  Lastly, it would be time consuming to unhumanize the MIDI clips in Sonar in order for them to transfer cleanly (as in having the appropriate note lengths) into Sibelius, or any other score editor for that matter. 

If you already have a professional score editor, compose there first and then bring the MIDI files into Sonar.  It will make your life much easier.  I only suggested using the score editor in Sonar in case you didn't already have one.


Take care!

Jose
Again Thank you....
 
I do have Sibelius so the score editor is covered......I really love Sibelius....
 
In my noggin that is the work flow I was thinking of using.... I have fooled with CC data before but not extensively...(sorry bout the spelling...One of my draw backs...).....When I brought the Sibelius Score into Sonar there was a lot of CC Data to clean up ... so it was a little frustrating for me.....I guess I just need to learn more!!!!     Well ok then....I will learn
 
I had Dr.'s appointments last night so I could not try your suggestion but I got up extra early this moring and got an hour in to try out the simpler track you suggested...as you may guess I was only really able to insert the simple track , open up an synth and play with it a little ..nothig too deep....that will be for tonite.....I am going to try to test out GPO with that Aria player and set up a templet..
 
But what I did get in I think I liked it very much and can see your point......it is very much worth prusuing....
 
Thank you very much......I will be back to you with questions later this week I am sure......
 
but it seems like my question But YOUR ANSWER (most of all) has helped others....so this is a good thing...
 
Very Cool
 
Clifford

Thanks AGAIN, Cliff!  :-)

I will have to check that midi assignment thing out.....

Janet


Thank you again, Jose! Where have you been all my life??!!  :-)   (actually, Ron (rolifer) has helped me tremendously.  I couldn't do most of this without him having walked me through it.)

Anyway, he did explain keyswitches, but it's nice to know there's a less RAM-intensive way of doing it, since too many instances of EWQL makes saving a project take quite awhile.  I guess what I meant was that I'm not particular enough or into the nuances of the articulations enough (read: not good enough at this stuff yet!) to know when I need a different one.  I.E., if I need staccato, I just shorten the midi notes.  But I want to try this out anyway, next time I attempt an orchestral piece.  Thanks again!  :-)

Does anyone care to explain using layers to me?  That's another thing I've never quite figured out. 

Yes....me too please....might as well go down this road....
 
I "THINK" I know "what" a Layer is.....I think.....it is either:
1. a layered sound.......one sound placed on top of another as in layering a kick drum sample...
2. a layerd track...in this case two or more tracks for the same part......IE track one will hold (for lack of a better term here) the keyswitch for staccatto playing.....track 2 wil hold the legato playing.....etc......
 
Now how to get them......well that is something I've never done YET......again something new to learn and this is where I think I am going to get tripped up with Jose's method and where I will be asking my "How To" questons......I understand the over all concept of what Jose is explaining but it will be the technique of "How to"  that I will need to understand....
 
I figured I will get to that part after I pexperimented with the first part....
 
Clifford
 
 

Jose7822


Track Layers is a common feature in DAWs that enables you to have several audio/MIDI clips on separate lanes residing inside a single track.  It's mostly used for punch-in takes, where you'll have several takes lined up vertically in a track, but can also be used for other purposes.  Here's a video explaining Layers in Sonar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=So5sSU7geuQ (sorry about the quality)


HTH

Duh!!!!!!    i use them all the time in Audio tracks to do a comp part.....be it vocal, or guitar or bass etc.......but I've never used them in midi tracks........
 
Clifford

Unbelievable!  This is SO cool!  I've never used a simple instrument track.  I can't believe it's a midi/audio track in one!  Boy, that sure unclutters the place quickly! 

I got the event inspector going (and docked at the bottom like you have). :-) 

But I don't see how to assign midi channels inside PLAY, and can't find it in the manual.