TI-based Firewire

Author
cjack
Bronze Member
  • Total Posts : 135
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2004/06/01 18:04:49
  • Status: offline
2011/01/31 21:01:18 (permalink)

TI-based Firewire

Theoretically Sonar will not run well  with non-TI firewire.
 
I will allow that perhaps I need to swap in a new card to get my X1 package solid. However, two questions:
 
1) If the non-TI firewireis the problem, how come Reason/record and Sound Forge have no problems?
 
2) Is anyone running X1 with non-TI firewire and running with stability?
 
In any case, no new card until after X1b. 8.5.3 did OK.
#1

28 Replies Related Threads

    panup
    Silver Member
    • Total Posts : 1879
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2006/05/23 09:34:35
    • Location: Helsinki, Finland
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/01/31 21:10:40 (permalink)
    I used non-TI Firewire 800 with two Fireface 800 interfaces succesfully for years.
    OS was 32-bit XP SP3.

    #2
    10Ten
    Silver Member
    • Total Posts : 1538
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2008/02/01 11:30:54
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/01/31 21:11:39 (permalink)
    Sonar has nothing to do with it.  If you happen to have a non-TI card and are having issues that you think are firewire related, try the AVT drivers.
    #3
    AT
    Platinum Member
    • Total Posts : 9179
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2004/01/09 10:42:46
    • Location: TeXaS
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 00:01:53 (permalink)
    As 10 sez, SONAR doesn't have much to do w/ FW drivers, which are interface dependent.  There were more problems w/ SONAR seemingly w/ the TC dice II system that several companies used - TC itself, Presonsus, Focusrite, etc.  That has been fixed now.  But anyway, most FW interfaces play best w/ TI FW chipsets.  However, I've used an old VIA FW card for dogs years w/ no real problems - old presonus and yamaha mLAN, later none dice PreSonus as well as TC.  You have a better chance of no problems w/ TI, but can still get them.  Get a TI if you can, but feel free to try other chips as well.  It is a matter of degree, not kind.

    @

    http://soundcloud.com/rm101-1
    http://www.bnoir-film.com/  
    Dutch: He gave his word to a railroad.
    Pike: It's his word.
    Dutch: That ain't what counts! It's who you give it to!
    The Wild Bunch
    .
    #4
    LJB
    Silver Member
    • Total Posts : 999
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2009/07/29 10:31:31
    • Location: South Africa
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 00:22:42 (permalink)
    I have a high-end Lenovo laptop running two Yamaha i88X units for mobile. The Lenovo is non-TI and I have had endless trouble with slight but regular audio dropouts, with Sonar open or not. DPC Latency Checker spikes like crazy when the FW port is switched on. And that system is still 8.5.3.

    Ludwig Bouwer, One Big Room Studios.
    --------------------------
    "A culture is only as great as its dreams, and its dreams are dreamed by artists."


    Sonar X3 Producer 64bit / PT9.06 / Win 7 64 / RME HDSP9652 / RME UFX / i7-2600 / 8GB

    Check out my work at www.onebigroom.co.za

    #5
    LJB
    Silver Member
    • Total Posts : 999
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2009/07/29 10:31:31
    • Location: South Africa
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 00:23:42 (permalink)
    Sonar has nothing to do with it.  If you happen to have a non-TI card and are having issues that you think are firewire related, try the AVT drivers.
    10Ten


    Sonar has nothing to do with it.  If you happen to have a non-TI card and are having issues that you think are firewire related, try the AVT drivers.

    10Ten, what are these and where can I find them?

    Ludwig Bouwer, One Big Room Studios.
    --------------------------
    "A culture is only as great as its dreams, and its dreams are dreamed by artists."


    Sonar X3 Producer 64bit / PT9.06 / Win 7 64 / RME HDSP9652 / RME UFX / i7-2600 / 8GB

    Check out my work at www.onebigroom.co.za

    #6
    Zonno
    Silver Member
    • Total Posts : 776
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2007/04/11 16:37:33
    • Location: The Netherlands
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 03:54:05 (permalink)
    I'm having trouble finding out which motherboard or card has a TI-FWchipset.
    Product specifications often do not give away such details.
     
    How do you find out?

    SONAR X3A, Reason 7, KOMPLETE 9, Roland OctaCapture, PCR-300, HP Elitebook 8770w
    __________________ 
    Any text above is a random collection of characters which bear no meaning whatsoever. The reader will be held liable for any damage due to interpretation of these characters.
    #7
    mudgel
    Platinum Member
    • Total Posts : 7734
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2004/08/13 00:56:05
    • Location: Linton Victoria (Near Ballarat)
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 04:11:36 (permalink)
    GigABYTE boards often use TI chipsets.

    When it comes to laptops you have to understand that if you have onboard firewire and having Firewire troubles then getting an Express Card with a firewire port may not fix your problems. The reason for this is that the whole Express Card/ Firewire/ Various other devices (depending on what other hardware your PC has like SD card slots etc) are all controlled by the same chipset. so in the end your data will still be passing through the problematic chipsets.

    The only way to be certain is do your research before you buy a laptop as you often can't make a bad firewire laptop better by adding a firewire card.
    post edited by mudgel - 2011/02/01 04:12:53

    Mike V.   

    SONAR X3d x64 
    STUDIO Win8.1x64 

    ASUS P9X79 PRO 
    INTEL i7 E3930k

    RME FF800 x 2
    UAD 2 Quad 
    32GIG DDR3 1800 
    JBL2300 system 

    5TB SATA III Storage
    LOCATION HP DV8 18.4"
    Presonus studio Live 24.4.2 
    i7-720 8GIG DDR3 nVidia GT230M 2 X 500GIG SATA3 HDD
    WIN7x64

    #8
    LJB
    Silver Member
    • Total Posts : 999
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2009/07/29 10:31:31
    • Location: South Africa
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 05:56:46 (permalink)
    Zonno


    I'm having trouble finding out which motherboard or card has a TI-FWchipset.
    Product specifications often do not give away such details.
     
    How do you find out?

    Zonno, Asus boards seem to have them standard. Most decent IT shops should be able to find out for you.

    Ludwig Bouwer, One Big Room Studios.
    --------------------------
    "A culture is only as great as its dreams, and its dreams are dreamed by artists."


    Sonar X3 Producer 64bit / PT9.06 / Win 7 64 / RME HDSP9652 / RME UFX / i7-2600 / 8GB

    Check out my work at www.onebigroom.co.za

    #9
    10Ten
    Silver Member
    • Total Posts : 1538
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2008/02/01 11:30:54
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 06:20:04 (permalink)
    LJB



    Sonar has nothing to do with it.  If you happen to have a non-TI card and are having issues that you think are firewire related, try the AVT drivers.
    10Ten


    Sonar has nothing to do with it.  If you happen to have a non-TI card and are having issues that you think are firewire related, try the AVT drivers.

    10Ten, what are these and where can I find them?


    http://www.alliedvisionte...-busdriverpackage.html
    #10
    fireberd
    Silver Member
    • Total Posts : 1781
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2008/02/25 14:14:28
    • Location: Inverness, FL Formerly KCMO
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 06:33:48 (permalink)
    Most of the Intel motherboards use the T.I. firewire chipset.  My DP35DP Intel board has the T.I.   There was a recent thread about that and it noted new Intel boards that have the T.I. chipset.

     

    Franklin D-10 Pedal Steel Guitar (primary instrument). Tele, LP, 4 and 5 string basses, etc. 
    Gigabyte GA-Z77X-UD5H M/B, i7 3770 CPU, 16GB Ram,  Intel HD 4000 Video, SSD and conventional hard drives, Corsair Carbide 500R Case, Win 7 & Win 8.1 64 bit
    Sonar X3e PE 64 bit. Octa-Capture and  Fast Track Ultra 8R, ART Pro MPA II, Tranzport, BCF2000, JBL LSR308 Monitors 
    Ozone 5 & Melodyne

    ISRC Registered

    Member of Nashville based R.O.P.E. Assn.
    #11
    cjack
    Bronze Member
    • Total Posts : 135
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2004/06/01 18:04:49
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 08:09:38 (permalink)
    Thanks for feedback.
    Given the other apps are running fine, I will assume my X1 wobbles are not due to the FW chip.
    #12
    Jim Roseberry
    Platinum Member
    • Total Posts : 7905
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
    • Location: Ohio
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 09:39:40 (permalink)
    Theoretically Sonar will not run well with non-TI firewire. I will allow that perhaps I need to swap in a new card to get my X1 package solid. However, two questions: 1) If the non-TI firewireis the problem, how come Reason/record and Sound Forge have no problems? 2) Is anyone running X1 with non-TI firewire and running with stability? In any case, no new card until after X1b. 8.5.3 did OK.

     
    It's not that non-TI Firewire can't work... but rather that TI chipset Firewire exponentially increases your odds of success.  
    It's down to the specific combination of Firewire controller and audio interface.
    ie:  The RME Fireface units are a little more forgiving than the M-Audio FW1814 (and its siblings).
    The Fireface units will often work with Via chipset Firewire controllers... whereas the FW1814 usually won't.
    BTW, A unit may "work" with a particular non-TI chipset FW controller... but it may not work as well as it could.  ie:  My 896HD and 8-Pre both "work" with a Via Firewire controller we have here... but they're more prone to dropouts/glitches (than when running from a good TI controller).
     
    Note that not all TI Firewire controllers are created equal.
    Recently bought a "Manhattan" branded PCIe TI chipset Firewire controller for my new SandyBridge system... and it caused my MOTU 896HD to be completely flakey.  Odd thing is that the MOTU 8-Pre worked just fine.  Popped in a SIIG TI chipset Firewire controller... and the 896HD (and 8-Pre) works great.
     
    If you're running a "rogue" chipset Firewire controller and having problems... the first thing I'd try is a good TI chipset controller.  (A controller card can usually be returned if that doesn't solve the problem.)
     
    Almost every time you see someone struggling with a Firewire audio interface, they're not using a quality TI chipset Firewire controller.
    A bad combination (controller and audio interface) can result in symtoms ranging from dropouts/glitches... all the way up to complete instability (lockups and BSOD).

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #13
    Jim Roseberry
    Platinum Member
    • Total Posts : 7905
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
    • Location: Ohio
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 09:40:49 (permalink)
    Asus boards seem to have them standard

     
    Current Asus mobos tend to use Via chipset Firewire...  

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #14
    LJB
    Silver Member
    • Total Posts : 999
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2009/07/29 10:31:31
    • Location: South Africa
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 13:23:18 (permalink)
    Jim, in the flipside, is there possibly a list of affordable laptops that definitely have TI FW chips?

    Ludwig Bouwer, One Big Room Studios.
    --------------------------
    "A culture is only as great as its dreams, and its dreams are dreamed by artists."


    Sonar X3 Producer 64bit / PT9.06 / Win 7 64 / RME HDSP9652 / RME UFX / i7-2600 / 8GB

    Check out my work at www.onebigroom.co.za

    #15
    CakeAlexS
    Platinum Member
    • Total Posts : 6099
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2010/12/29 15:28:29
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 14:43:47 (permalink)
    If 64 bit Windows 7 you should use the legacy firewire driver. Google words in bold for reasons why/howto.

    Alex

    X3E Producer (64 bit),Win 8.1.1 (64 bit),Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 (Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Dell Studio XPS 8100 (Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz / 16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B. NI Maschine Studio + Komplete 9 Ultimate + Kontrol Z1. Addictive Keys, Izotope Nectar elements, Overloud Bundle, Geist. Acronis True Image 2014.
     
     
     
    LATEST SONG - DRIVING.
    #16
    Jim Roseberry
    Platinum Member
    • Total Posts : 7905
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
    • Location: Ohio
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 15:53:37 (permalink)
    Jim, in the flipside, is there possibly a list of affordable laptops that definitely have TI FW chips?

     
    FWIW, It's a really short list (easy to remember)    
    Absolutely no current generation laptops come with TI Firewire.
     
    My solution to this issue is to use a custom mini-ITX (running an i7 CPU) with either a touch-screen... or a small monitor and mini wireless keyboard/mouse

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #17
    10Ten
    Silver Member
    • Total Posts : 1538
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2008/02/01 11:30:54
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 15:59:35 (permalink)
    CakeAlexS


    If 64 bit Windows 7 you should use the legacy firewire driver. Google words in bold for reasons why/howto.


    No, you should use the driver that works for you. The standard Windows 7 driver works just fine for a lot of people including me. The legacy driver ran like complete crap on my system.
    #18
    Jim Roseberry
    Platinum Member
    • Total Posts : 7905
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
    • Location: Ohio
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 16:07:29 (permalink)

    No, you should use the driver that works for you. The standard Windows 7 driver works just fine for a lot of people including me. The legacy driver ran like complete crap on my system.

     
    Totally depends on the audio interface's driver...
     
    ie:  RME has updated their driver to support the Win7 standard driver.  Digi has not done so with the 003 (so you need to switch to legacy mode).
     
    If in doubt, try the stock driver first.  If that fails, try switching to legacy mode.
    If that fails, you need a new TI FW controller.
     

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #19
    Zoo Milieu
    New Member
    • Total Posts : 9
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2010/11/14 12:59:56
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 18:04:43 (permalink)
    Zonno


    I'm having trouble finding out which motherboard or card has a TI-FWchipset.
    Product specifications often do not give away such details.
     
    How do you find out?


    http://www.siig.com/ViewProductList.aspx?catid=244

    This is the brand I went with when I couldn't get my Mackie Blackbird to sing. The PCIe is the way to go is you have one available. Also, the card I bought needs power from a molex connection. Hope that helps, it made a big difference for me and $60 delivered from Tigerdirect.com wasn't bad. For me, swappin' out a MoBo would be a huge nightmare, the card was the best option. GL Zonno!
    #20
    Jim Roseberry
    Platinum Member
    • Total Posts : 7905
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
    • Location: Ohio
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 18:19:38 (permalink)
    This is the brand I went with when I couldn't get my Mackie Blackbird to sing. The PCIe is the way to go is you have one available. Also, the card I bought needs power from a molex connection. Hope that helps, it made a big difference for me and $60 delivered from Tigerdirect.com wasn't bad. For me, swappin' out a MoBo would be a huge nightmare, the card was the best option. GL Zonno!

     
    Just to clear up a couple of things
     
    Going PCIe with the TI Firewire controller is fine...
    But that in-and-of itself won't increase performance of your audio interface.
    IOW, You won't be able to achieve lower latency or run heavier loads without glitches.
    The advantage to a PCIe controller is that it'll have a longer shelf-life. 
    (PCIe is a wider bus, but you're not saturating the PCI bus with a FW controller)
     
    6-pin Firewire carries bus power on two of those pins.
    I wouldn't recommend using bus power for any Firewire peripheral (unless there's no other option).
    If you don't plan to use bus power for any Firewire peripherals, you don't need to connect the power lead.  
     

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #21
    thomasabarnes
    Gold Member
    • Total Posts : 3004
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2003/11/11 03:19:17
    • Location: Milwaukee, WI USA
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 18:47:20 (permalink)
    My Giga motherboard has an onboard TI chipset firewire port, but when I was using my old ASUS motherboard which didn't have an onboard firewire port, this is the PCI firewire card (with TI chipset) that worked well for me (and may be of interest to anyone needing a PCI firewire card): http://www.guitarcenter.com/ADS-Tech-Pyro-PCI-64R2-703159-i1600344.gc
    post edited by thomasabarnes - 2011/02/01 18:51:40


    "It's not a song till it touches your heart. It's not a song till it tears you apart!" Lyrics of Amy Grant.

    SONAR X3e Producer-X64 (jBridge), Win 7 Pro 64-Bit, Core i7 920 @ stock speed, Gigabyte EX58-UD5,
    24GB 1333MHz DDR3 @1333 MHz, MOTU UltraLite MK3, Delta 1010LT, ATI Radeon HD 5770, 150GB, 320GB, 
    1TB x 2 7200rpm HDDs
    #22
    jimmyrage
    Bronze Member
    • Total Posts : 238
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2010/02/05 18:12:35
    • Location: Norfolk Va.
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 19:43:20 (permalink)
    I use a Syba PCI card with my desktop, and a Syba PCMCIS cardbus for my laptop.  Both problem free.  Both purchased from Newegg.   Previously went through 3 years of aggravation with a non T.I. controller card. 
    #23
    panup
    Silver Member
    • Total Posts : 1879
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2006/05/23 09:34:35
    • Location: Helsinki, Finland
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 21:05:35 (permalink)
    CakeAlexS


    If 64 bit Windows 7 you should use the legacy firewire driver. Google words in bold for reasons why/howto.
    Legacy driver does not recognize multiple Firewire devices correctly; 2 x Fireface 800 does not work, neither LiquidMix + 1 Fireface.

    post edited by panup - 2011/02/01 21:06:37
    #24
    mark s
    Silver Member
    • Total Posts : 1138
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2004/01/20 22:08:41
    • Location: Kansas City, Missouri
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 21:29:57 (permalink)
    32 bit here.  I have via chips too and they worked fine but the only way I got two MOTU heads to play nice were with the AVT drivers.  It's a windows thing. OMMV
    #25
    Zoo Milieu
    New Member
    • Total Posts : 9
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2010/11/14 12:59:56
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 22:34:39 (permalink)
    Jim Roseberry



    This is the brand I went with when I couldn't get my Mackie Blackbird to sing. The PCIe is the way to go is you have one available. Also, the card I bought needs power from a molex connection. Hope that helps, it made a big difference for me and $60 delivered from Tigerdirect.com wasn't bad. For me, swappin' out a MoBo would be a huge nightmare, the card was the best option. GL Zonno!

     
    Just to clear up a couple of things
     
    Going PCIe with the TI Firewire controller is fine...
    But that in-and-of itself won't increase performance of your audio interface.
    IOW, You won't be able to achieve lower latency or run heavier loads without glitches.
    The advantage to a PCIe controller is that it'll have a longer shelf-life. 
    (PCIe is a wider bus, but you're not saturating the PCI bus with a FW controller)
     
    6-pin Firewire carries bus power on two of those pins.
    I wouldn't recommend using bus power for any Firewire peripheral (unless there's no other option).
    If you don't plan to use bus power for any Firewire peripherals, you don't need to connect the power lead.  
     


    Good to know. I'll pull the power on it to save a few gigawatts for other devices. Thanks for expounding on my post.
    #26
    stonehedge
    Bronze Member
    • Total Posts : 165
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2008/05/22 17:47:44
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/01 22:44:02 (permalink)
    The last 3 Asus motherboards I have used have AGERE firewire chipsets in them. They are working fine on MOTU 2408 in my systems

    Home built i7 2600K Sandybridge, 16GB corsair RAM, Asus p8z68 Deluxe/Gen 3, EVGA GeForce GTX 560 Ti, Win 7 SP1, Sonar PEX3d, Sony Vegas Pro 12, Sound Forge 11, Pro Tools 10, Superior Drummer 2, Easy Keys,Melodyne Editor 2, MOTU 2408, Motu MTPav, midisport 4X4,Yamaha 01v (3) with adat optical, Mackie Control Universal, Monitors by JBL, Tannoy, Fostex.
    #27
    LJB
    Silver Member
    • Total Posts : 999
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2009/07/29 10:31:31
    • Location: South Africa
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/02 01:04:49 (permalink)
    Jim Roseberry



    Jim, in the flipside, is there possibly a list of affordable laptops that definitely have TI FW chips?

     
    FWIW, It's a really short list (easy to remember)    
    Absolutely no current generation laptops come with TI Firewire.
     
    My solution to this issue is to use a custom mini-ITX (running an i7 CPU) with either a touch-screen... or a small monitor and mini wireless keyboard/mouse


    Jim, I was trying to solve my mobile recording problem the other day and came up with this - instead of carrying a PC, screen, keyboard etc, what's the chance of just getting a small PC case and then using my existing laptop (with no reliable FW) as a controller via some sort of remote desktop software over ethernet or something? What software could do that reliably in your opinion? Thanks for letting us pick your brain! :O)

    Ludwig Bouwer, One Big Room Studios.
    --------------------------
    "A culture is only as great as its dreams, and its dreams are dreamed by artists."


    Sonar X3 Producer 64bit / PT9.06 / Win 7 64 / RME HDSP9652 / RME UFX / i7-2600 / 8GB

    Check out my work at www.onebigroom.co.za

    #28
    JonD
    Silver Member
    • Total Posts : 2125
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2003/12/09 11:09:10
    • Location: Los Angeles, CA
    • Status: offline
    Re:TI-based Firewire 2011/02/02 02:11:30 (permalink)
    Zonno


    I'm having trouble finding out which motherboard or card has a TI-FWchipset.
    Product specifications often do not give away such details.
     
    How do you find out?


    I just look it up at newegg.com.  (If you haven't heard of them, they're a large computer parts/electronics retailer in the U.S.).

    Assuming they carry the part - and they usually do if it's still in production - the chipset will be listed under the "specs" section.



    Sonar X3e PE, Win7 x64, Intel i7 2600K, Intel DZ68DB, 16GB RAM, Radeon HD5450, Focusrite Saffire 14 Pro, Event ALP Monitors, ATH-M50s, Various plugins, My lucky hat.
    #29
    Jump to:
    © 2014 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1