How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users?

X1b addresses at least two issues that are not specific to X1, but apply to previous versions of SONAR as well: V-Vocal crashes and the Sonitus Delay memory leak.

How about sharing those fixes with those of us who aren't ready to go on the X1 adventure ride just yet?

Or will these fixes be withheld as an incentive to upgrade?

 > Bitflipper< X-1b is very good is all il say !!

I will be going back to 8.5.3 .. 

Heh Heh Heh.......






NO, loosers!

Just joshin' ya.

Come on into the light. We're havin' a ball in here. 
I wondered where you were Filpper. Over there still hu.

I'm with you BF...

I wish they would simply fix 8.5.3 and market this as another software!

Keni

bitflipper


X1b addresses at least two issues that are not specific to X1, but apply to previous versions of SONAR as well: V-Vocal crashes and the Sonitus Delay memory leak.

How about sharing those fixes with those of us who aren't ready to go on the X1 adventure ride just yet?

Or will these fixes be withheld as an incentive to upgrade?

Copy V-Vocal folder (C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\Shared DXi\VVocal) and Sonitus EQ (located in C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\Shared Plugins) to SONAR 8.5 locations?

Here here I'm with you on this one bitflipper +1

Yup.

panup

bitflipper


X1b addresses at least two issues that are not specific to X1, but apply to previous versions of SONAR as well: V-Vocal crashes and the Sonitus Delay memory leak.

How about sharing those fixes with those of us who aren't ready to go on the X1 adventure ride just yet?

Or will these fixes be withheld as an incentive to upgrade?

Copy V-Vocal folder (C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\Shared DXi\VVocal) and Sonitus EQ (located in C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\Shared Plugins) to SONAR 8.5 locations?

copy them from where? IOf you have X1 then the X1 files over wrote the plugins in the shared folders anyway. If you don't have X1 then you don't have access to the new versions of the files.

Why stop at 8.5?

They really need to make a separate V-Vocal/Sonitus Delay patch download for all versions of SONAR. I mean, it was meant to work properly in the first place.
Although I have installed X1b, it hasn't quite earned my confidence yet for me to use it as my go-to DAW. Perhaps it's familiarity with the old interface, or perhaps it's the stability issue.

mudgel

panup

bitflipper


X1b addresses at least two issues that are not specific to X1, but apply to previous versions of SONAR as well: V-Vocal crashes and the Sonitus Delay memory leak.

How about sharing those fixes with those of us who aren't ready to go on the X1 adventure ride just yet?

Or will these fixes be withheld as an incentive to upgrade?

Copy V-Vocal folder (C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\Shared DXi\VVocal) and Sonitus EQ (located in C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\Shared Plugins) to SONAR 8.5 locations?

copy them from where? IOf you have X1 then the X1 files over wrote the plugins in the shared folders anyway. If you don't have X1 then you don't have access to the new versions of the files.

Maybe we could request Cakewalk to give them to Sonar 8.5 users;)

MaestroGeek


They really need to make a separate V-Vocal/Sonitus Delay patch download for all versions of SONAR. I mean, it was meant to work properly in the first place.
Although I have installed X1b, it hasn't quite earned my confidence yet for me to use it as my go-to DAW. Perhaps it's familiarity with the old interface, or perhaps it's the stability issue.

Ditto

the Sonitus Delay memory leak

The first leaky version of Sonitus Delay appeared on the 8.5 disks, If you have the 8.5 download or any version older than that, you have a good DLL that can be used with 8.5.3... unless there's some other fix (the tempo sync bug?) in the X1b DLL that I don't know about...?

panup

bitflipper


X1b addresses at least two issues that are not specific to X1, but apply to previous versions of SONAR as well: V-Vocal crashes and the Sonitus Delay memory leak.

How about sharing those fixes with those of us who aren't ready to go on the X1 adventure ride just yet?

Or will these fixes be withheld as an incentive to upgrade?

Copy V-Vocal folder (C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\Shared DXi\VVocal) and Sonitus EQ (located in C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\Shared Plugins) to SONAR 8.5 locations?

I tried that and it didn't work for me. Don't know if it would work for others. I'm inclined to think it won't, but I'm not others.

bitflipper



...Or will these fixes be withheld as an incentive to upgrade?

Of course, you answered you're own question, David, since 8.5 is now an abandoned program with no more upgrades or support offered. 

RB

brundlefly

the Sonitus Delay memory leak

The first leaky version of Sonitus Delay appeared on the 8.5 disks, If you have the 8.5 download or any version older than that, you have a good DLL that can be used with 8.5.3... unless there's some other fix (the tempo sync bug?) in the X1b DLL that I don't know about...?

I'm curious why the discs/DVDs would be different from the download?  I don't remember .  Were the discs released later -- with a different (and apparently buggier) version? 

If so, this is an egregious oversight.  For those of us who bought the boxed (broken) version -- where's our hotfix?!

When I installed X1b there was no re-install of the V-Vocal or Delay dlls which makes me think the fix to these was in X1b itself.

So if i decode what you're saying , the dll is not the faulty one ,  but the way sonar actually use those plugins ....
Interesting ..... bakers input on this one would be appreciated !

bitflipper


X1b addresses at least two issues that are not specific to X1, but apply to previous versions of SONAR as well: V-Vocal crashes and the Sonitus Delay memory leak.

How about sharing those fixes with those of us who aren't ready to go on the X1 adventure ride just yet?

+1

Or will these fixes be withheld as an incentive to upgrade?

No one is forcing you sniveling whiners to upgrade.

Or are they is that exactly what Cakewalk is doing?

guitartrek


When I installed X1b there was no re-install of the V-Vocal or Delay dlls which makes me think the fix to these was in X1b itself.

If you find the 2 files and check their version numbers that should answer any questions.
You will of course also need to know the version numbers of an un-updated x1 install.

8.5 is only dead insofar as no further development is being done. It is not an unsupported product.

Windows XP is dead insofar as no further development is being done. It is not an unsupported product. I download bug fixes to XP every week.

My car's model is no longer manufactured. It is not an unsupported product. I have taken it in twice to have manufacturing mistakes corrected, at the manufacturer's own insistence. One of those fixes was actually a software update.

Remedying product defects is an obligation. Don't give me any sob stories about how burdensome it is for a small company to support past revisions. I am a small company with a development staff of ONE: me. But I still do it, if for no other reason than my product has my name on it, and defects are personally embarrassing.

I've bought the last three versions of SONAR partly because they had bug fixes and partly because they had new features. But X1 does not have any new features I'm interested in, so I'd be buying it solely for bug fixes. I don't need to underscore the irony in that.

X1b updates Sonitus Delay DLL. I noticed this because I had mod in Sonitus Delay and after X1b it was gone. 

bitflipper


8.5 is only dead insofar as no further development is being done. It is not an unsupported product.

8.5 has been completely abandoned

Windows XP is dead insofar as no further development is being done. It is not an unsupported product. I download bug fixes to XP every week.

word

My car's model is no longer manufactured. It is not an unsupported product. I have taken it in twice to have manufacturing mistakes corrected, at the manufacturer's own insistence. One of those fixes was actually a software update.

word

Remedying product defects is an obligation. Don't give me any sob stories about how burdensome it is for a small company to support past revisions. I am a small company with a development staff of ONE: me. But I still do it, if for no other reason than my product has my name on it, and defects are personally embarrassing.

And... you have a sterling reputation: 5 stars!

I've bought the last three versions of SONAR partly because they had bug fixes and partly because they had new features. But X1 does not have any new features I'm interested in, so I'd be buying it solely for bug fixes. I don't need to underscore the irony in that.

The irony is palpable


I am sick of letting software developers get a free out because the technology is so new that we aren't supposed to reasonably expect quality control and a commitment to fix the stuff that is sold as advertised but doesn't work. That was the best I could expect in 1982 with the stuff we bought then... I've moved on to expecting software vendors to be held responsible for providing goods that work as advertised.

When ever a software dev defender makes excuses about how complicated the work is I wonder what other types of engineering or logistical projects they have experience with. They should try building a skyscraper or a space ship some day... yeah stuff happens... but excuses aren't excused in those fields.

Hey, it's Sunday... I'll be gentle. ;-)

best regards,
mike

 

I've bought the last three versions of SONAR partly because they had bug fixes and partly because they had new features. But X1 does not have any new features I'm interested in, so I'd be buying it solely for bug fixes. I don't need to underscore the irony in that.

+1

thought I don't think it will change anything, I can't remember Cake ever putting out bug fixes for an old product after the new one is launched.  ( I would be happy to be corrected if wrong)

You're right.

Basically it goes like this:

1) : Version release full of show stopping bugs... which you buy with a No Refund and No Resale policy.

2a) Patches come out through about June and then update support stops.

2b) Demo version comes out

3) Version goes on sale July or August.

4) New version comes out around November. Coda.

So you basically get just a little less than 6 months of support before any version is abandoned.

The frustrating thing is that there seems to be a continual introduction of bugs into older established features that actually worked in previous versions and there continues to the existence of bugs and broken features that seem to get ignored for decades while doo-doo-dadds are developed for entertainment.

I've been faithfully upgrading each year as early as possible but there seems to be little appreciation that a customer like that might prioritize small incremental improvements and so the focus in development always seems to be on wow-pow stuff that I am barely, if at all, interested in.

Someday some one of influence will inspire Cakewalk to do the right thing and Cakewalk will get its product back on track with a focus that demonstrates what was once clearly the world's best full featured DAW still has the potential to be.


best regards,
mike

panup

bitflipper


X1b addresses at least two issues that are not specific to X1, but apply to previous versions of SONAR as well: V-Vocal crashes and the Sonitus Delay memory leak.

How about sharing those fixes with those of us who aren't ready to go on the X1 adventure ride just yet?

Or will these fixes be withheld as an incentive to upgrade?

Copy V-Vocal folder (C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\Shared DXi\VVocal) and Sonitus EQ (located in C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\Shared Plugins) to SONAR 8.5 locations?

If that's the case, wouldn't installing X1 over write the old shared and now the new versions are what 8.5.3 calls as well as x1?

mudgel

panup

bitflipper


X1b addresses at least two issues that are not specific to X1, but apply to previous versions of SONAR as well: V-Vocal crashes and the Sonitus Delay memory leak.

How about sharing those fixes with those of us who aren't ready to go on the X1 adventure ride just yet?

Or will these fixes be withheld as an incentive to upgrade?

Copy V-Vocal folder (C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\Shared DXi\VVocal) and Sonitus EQ (located in C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\Shared Plugins) to SONAR 8.5 locations?

copy them from where? IOf you have X1 then the X1 files over wrote the plugins in the shared folders anyway. If you don't have X1 then you don't have access to the new versions of the files.

I should have read your post before I responded to Panup's message as I said the same...

Wouldn't that be too easy??? ;-)

the thing most people forget? cakewalk is a business, bottom line is dollar$

wouldn't installing X1 over write the old shared and now the new versions are what 8.5.3 calls as well as x1?

Yes, which is why those who have installed X1b alongside 8.5 will have coincidentally acquired a couple of fixes for the latter in the bargain. Which is great, especially if you're slowly migrating to X1 but still using 8.5 day-to-day. But a slap in the face for those of us who have no desire to move to X1, or to pay a hundred bucks for a couple bug fixes.

I recently downloaded a new version of SPAN, a free product that's been around for years and is maintained by a one-man operation. The new version actually includes functional enhancements! Aleksy should be an inspiration to software vendors the world over, and indeed most of the respected small developers have a similar ethic.

It's one of the reasons I hope Reaper does well, even if the product isn't my cup of tea. Its success may encourage a more consumer-friendly model across the board.

BTW, readers might enjoy this article by Dan Goldstein, principle developer for MixCraft, relating the story of a particularly difficult bug. Acoustica is another small company that's been quietly accumulating fans via a customer-centric policy.

bitflipper


X1b addresses at least two issues that are not specific to X1, but apply to previous versions of SONAR as well: V-Vocal crashes

V-Vocal still crashes for me....X1b seems to have fixed nothing V-Vocalwise

pwal


the thing most people forget? cakewalk is a business, bottom line is dollar$

And their not doing a very good job at convincing me of giving them any more of them.

how is the ratio of new users gained vs. old users lost?

JonD

brundlefly

the Sonitus Delay memory leak

The first leaky version of Sonitus Delay appeared on the 8.5 disks, If you have the 8.5 download or any version older than that, you have a good DLL that can be used with 8.5.3... unless there's some other fix (the tempo sync bug?) in the X1b DLL that I don't know about...?

I'm curious why the discs/DVDs would be different from the download?  I don't remember .  Were the discs released later -- with a different (and apparently buggier) version? 

If so, this is an egregious oversight.  For those of us who bought the boxed (broken) version -- where's our hotfix?!

Actually the version on the 8.5 disks (3.3.3.141) was even older than the version that shipped with 8.0 (3.3.3.221), and the version in the download was 3.3.3.372. For reference, the X1b version is 3.3.4.242, but I'm not sure what the bad version in X1 and X1a was; the renamed copy I kept does not show a version in properties.

pwal


the thing most people forget? cakewalk is a business, bottom line is dollar$

Yes... It is a business and must do the things such an entity must... But I've been with them since Master Greg H. first introduced and demo'd the DOS version himself.... and I've "known" many of the team since then... I would say most of not all of them are also musicians and want/use Sonar as much as we (outsiders) do... So they may have to run a business, but they have personal desires for their' products to do the work and well/easy!

That's why I'm so stunned at X1 as a release.... Has this (the above) now changed to pure corporate? I sure hope not for it's the driving reason Cakewalk has been as successful as it has.... It Users (programmers) supporting other users (us)....

We as musicians are in the same boat... We have our art, but then we have to market it in the real world which means doing business!

Keni

JonD

brundlefly

the Sonitus Delay memory leak

The first leaky version of Sonitus Delay appeared on the 8.5 disks, If you have the 8.5 download or any version older than that, you have a good DLL that can be used with 8.5.3... unless there's some other fix (the tempo sync bug?) in the X1b DLL that I don't know about...?

I'm curious why the discs/DVDs would be different from the download?  I don't remember .  Were the discs released later -- with a different (and apparently buggier) version? 

If so, this is an egregious oversight.  For those of us who bought the boxed (broken) version -- where's our hotfix?!

It's not an official hotfix (which I agree CW should provide for 8.5) but here is a solution, complete with DLL file downloads.
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=2256892&high=please+read 
 
EDIT: Although this post references the X1a update - these files work with 8.5 as well. 
 

so is it like yr favourite band changing from their "own style" to a "more generic style" in order to be more financially successful? or more like yr favourite guitar manufacturer ging from 6 strings to 5? the whole "skylight" thing, to me, is a kludged, failed (almost priceless) business move, nothing to do with usefulness of tools, etc... mutton dressed as lamb, and all that...

bitflipper

wouldn't installing X1 over write the old shared and now the new versions are what 8.5.3 calls as well as x1?

Yes, which is why those who have installed X1b alongside 8.5 will have coincidentally acquired a couple of fixes for the latter in the bargain. Which is great, especially if you're slowly migrating to X1 but still using 8.5 day-to-day. But a slap in the face for those of us who have no desire to move to X1, or to pay a hundred bucks for a couple bug fixes.

I recently downloaded a new version of SPAN, a free product that's been around for years and is maintained by a one-man operation. The new version actually includes functional enhancements! Aleksy should be an inspiration to software vendors the world over, and indeed most of the respected small developers have a similar ethic.

It's one of the reasons I hope Reaper does well, even if the product isn't my cup of tea. Its success may encourage a more consumer-friendly model across the board.

BTW, readers might enjoy this article by Dan Goldstein, principle developer for MixCraft, relating the story of a particularly difficult bug. Acoustica is another small company that's been quietly accumulating fans via a customer-centric policy.

Hi BF...

Yes... I couldn't agree with you more! tho I'm of the catagory that has both installed and relies on 8.5.3 while tinkering and complaining about X1x, I believe that you are right...

Knowing what I do about X1 now, I believe Cakewalk should have offerred something along the lines of:

$XX.xx for X1
$X.xx for 8.5.3 fixes

I would easily have been willing to spend money on some bug fixes (????) then to spend twice as much on a different product (unknowing) that shares it's roots in the product I have grown to love.

We all know that bugs are everywhere... but we bought this product expecting bugs to be fixed even faster than new features and releases do...

If I bought a car and it had a "bug" they would replace it or repair it at no extra cost to me.... until it was right.

I believe in this day/age we should start expecting the same from software vendors.... Not talking about changing/adding features.... Simply fixing bugs! If I buy a software that has bugs, the company should be responsible to continue fixing that until the product they sold me works as advertised. I can understand if it takes time... I also understand that they must have income to continue working.... Car companies do that by charging you more with this in mind...

So tho I don't have or like spending money... I would be perfectly happy to pay more for the product with a guarantee that they will fix any bugs before charging me for another car because this one didn't operate as advertised!

Keni

codamedia

JonD

brundlefly

the Sonitus Delay memory leak

The first leaky version of Sonitus Delay appeared on the 8.5 disks, If you have the 8.5 download or any version older than that, you have a good DLL that can be used with 8.5.3... unless there's some other fix (the tempo sync bug?) in the X1b DLL that I don't know about...?

I'm curious why the discs/DVDs would be different from the download?  I don't remember .  Were the discs released later -- with a different (and apparently buggier) version? 

If so, this is an egregious oversight.  For those of us who bought the boxed (broken) version -- where's our hotfix?!

It's not an official hotfix (which I agree CW should provide for 8.5) but here is a solution, complete with DLL file downloads.
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=2256892&high=please+read 
 
EDIT: Although this post references the X1a update - these files work with 8.5 as well. 
 

Thanks, brundlefly and codamedia.   Also, thanks to A1mixman for the thread and DLs.

I concur with the original post.  If there are broken things in 8.5.3 (such as V-vocal) and they're now fixed, these fixes should definitely be available to 8.5.3 (or Sonar 7 or...etc).  

This seems really obvious....well, to me anyway.  I hope they're considering it.

Bit,

Although I believe you are correct, I think CW has turned their sights to the new "X" series.  I hope I am wrong, but I think you have seen the last of the 8.x updates.

SmokeyJ628


I concur with the original post.  If there are broken things in 8.5.3 (such as V-vocal) and they're now fixed, these fixes should definitely be available to 8.5.3 (or Sonar 7 or...etc).  

This seems really obvious....well, to me anyway.  I hope they're considering it.

I brought this topic up a long time ago. It's not going to happen. I agree with you and Bitflipper ... it should be done, but it's not going to be.

SmokeyJ628


I concur with the original post.  If there are broken things in 8.5.3 (such as V-vocal) and they're now fixed, these fixes should definitely be available to 8.5.3 (or Sonar 7 or...etc).  

This seems really obvious....well, to me anyway.  I hope they're considering it.

Ditto

DeeS

pwal


the thing most people forget? cakewalk is a business, bottom line is dollar$

And their not doing a very good job at convincing me of giving them any more of them.

And this is how competition works.  Some other company will get it right (or at least better) and people will start switching.   I've already heard lots of stories about how stable Studio One is.  through on a couple more features and there's going to be trouble.  I've also been hearing a lot of good things about Cubase, I didn't like there program years ago.  It just didn't make sense to me, I was always reaching for the manual (kind of like with X1).  So I switched to Sonar.   Course now I just got Nexus 2 which just happened to come with a e-licenser doggle...

+1 for the OP

I'd have no problem with the DAW 2.0 if the DAW 1.0 had been finished before they moved on.

Child

How about sharing those fixes with those of us who aren't ready to go on the X1 adventure ride just yet?

I'd say the odds of that happening are slim to none. 

I'm with you Bit - X1 is like a different piece of software than the previous Sonar.  Just like Microsoft has been supporting XP for all these years I think it would be great if Cakewalk fixed a few things in 8.5 too, for a while anyway.

I've already heard lots of stories about how stable Studio One is.

I recently spent some time with Studio One. Ultimately, I set it aside as not quite ready - too many important features aren't in there yet. But I'll be checking out the next major release with interest, because the company is definitely doing a lot of things right. What is in there is solid and mostly well thought-out.

I'm still holding out hope that the next version of SONAR will be so killer that I'll have no problem happily forking over the upgrade price and getting back on board. I am always the optimist - but that's a chronic personality disorder that I probably should learn to overcome.

In my opinion, some bugs are purposely retained so they can have a new version out with the bug fixes and we will be forced to buy it.  It is a business after all...

All X1 has done is given me a greater appreciation for 8.5.3....

bitflipper

I recently downloaded a new version of SPAN, a free product that's been around for years and is maintained by a one-man operation. The new version actually includes functional enhancements! Aleksy should be an inspiration to software vendors the world over, and indeed most of the respected small developers have a similar ethic.

I've mentioned it before but I feel it bears mentioning again: I am still impressed that Terratec released 64 bit drivers for one of their products half a decade after it was discontinued.

It's one of the reasons I hope Reaper does well, even if the product isn't my cup of tea. Its success may encourage a more consumer-friendly model across the board.

Yes I hope so too.

BTW, readers might enjoy this article by Dan Goldstein, principle developer for MixCraft, relating the story of a particularly difficult bug. Acoustica is another small company that's been quietly accumulating fans via a customer-centric policy.

Nice read. Thanks for bringing this to our attention!

UnderTow

Searchfinger


In my opinion, some bugs are purposely retained so they can have a new version out with the bug fixes and we will be forced to buy it.  It is a business after all...

I sincerely doubt this although I am sure they do leave some bugs unfixed even though they are aware of them. Not to force people to upgrade but because they think they can get away with it as few users are complaining or because they can't figure out what is causing them or because they do know what is causing them but a solution would mean too much work to implement.

UnderTow

Yes,
 That was an excellent article to read.

 It was revealing that from the onset the developer assumed that the problem was caused by a change in their software and that even though the problem eventually was found to be some unrecognized flaw in Win XP that the solution was still made by adjusting the software to provide a solution.

 That's called keeping the eye on the prize.

 best regards,
 mike

Searchfinger


In my opinion, some bugs are purposely retained so they can have a new version out with the bug fixes and we will be forced to buy it.  It is a business after all...

Course American car companies tried that for years (planned obsolences) I wonder how that worked out...

Also, note I don't think Cakewalk is to big to fail, lol

Having been intimately involved in the software industry for nearly 40 years, I can tell you with certainty that - crazy as it sounds - yes, some bugs are intentionally left in.

But it's not planned obsolescence. It's because you can never get rid of all the bugs as long as you continue to enhance the product. You simply cannot wait until the bugs are gone before releasing your product. You'd never release anything.

bitflipper


Having been intimately involved in the software industry for nearly 40 years, I can tell you with certainty that - crazy as it sounds - yes, some bugs are intentionally left in.

But it's not planned obsolescence. It's because you can never get rid of all the bugs as long as you continue to enhance the product. You simply cannot wait until the bugs are gone before releasing your product. You'd never release anything.

Yes and because of that it is important that a software company does proper bug triaging. On the list of fixed X1b bugs was a mixture of critical bugs as well as all sorts of fluffy bugs that certainly weren't showstoppers for anyone. Every single bug they fix, critical or not, takes time. Instead they should have triaged the bugs properly as well as broken the list down into 2 or 3 groups and released a patch earlier that only fixed the critical first group of bugs. Then a next one that fixes the less critical bugs (plus additional critical bugs that were found in the mean time), etc.
 
CW only seems to fix the most obvious of critical bugs, and after that only the low-hanging fruit that nicely fills out the list of bug fixes to make us feel that they are hard at work. I just don't buy it. To me it just indicates that they don't have proper processes in place.

Hi all,i just installed X1b with Windows 7 and i'ts awesome,for five days no crash no glitch and Vvocal is perfect.My only problem is loop audition out of sync(cake are working CWBRN-4295).

Best

Roby

Bub

SmokeyJ628


I concur with the original post.  If there are broken things in 8.5.3 (such as V-vocal) and they're now fixed, these fixes should definitely be available to 8.5.3 (or Sonar 7 or...etc).  

This seems really obvious....well, to me anyway.  I hope they're considering it.

I brought this topic up a long time ago. It's not going to happen. I agree with you and Bitflipper ... it should be done, but it's not going to be.

...Same feelings here... 


...I believe Bitflipper perfectly knows there won't be any fixes for previous SONAR versions, as History shows....


...nevertheless he points out the right.....   

B San


All X1 has done is given me a greater appreciation for 8.5.3....

...DEFINITELY... I DO understand you...


...Sonar 8.5.3... the last REAL Sonar....... 

I'm trying the cubase demo so far, just in case.

Boy I hate learning how to do stuff that I already should know how to do (one of my main complaints with X1).

Although that VST expression stuff looks like it might be neat.