Connecting Sonar X1 with Behringer BCF2000

Hi all. I'm trying to set up my BCF2000 to work with Sonar in Mackie emulation mode. I've followed every tutorial that I could find to the letter, but the device still fails to connect.

I've installed the latest version of the drivers on my PC. I've successfully updated the firmware to v1.10. I've hooked it up via USB, and the USB light is lit. I've started the device up in Mackie emulation mode. I've added the Mackie control surface in Sonar. Sonar is receiving MIDI messages from the device, so I know that they are physically communicating. However, the display on the BCF2000 shows "NCSo", while Sonar just shows "connecting", and it never actually fully connects.

I did manage to get it to connect correctly one single time, seemingly at random, without doing anything different that I was aware of. The display on the BCF2000 changed to "Tr", Sonar said it had connected, and bi-directional control with the sliders was established. After that, I could restart Sonar and it would connect correctly every time. However, as soon as I turned off the BCF2000 and turned it back on again, it failed to connect from that point on, and I haven't managed to get it working again since.

I've spent a whole day trying to troubleshoot this, and I'm now at my wits end, and completely out of ideas to try. I'd be very grateful if anyone has any thoughts on what could be going wrong!

Start Sonar After turning on the BCR first.

Thanks for the idea Jesse. Sadly I've already spent a day trying different combinations of starting Sonar or the BCF2000 first, rebooting in between attempts, even resetting the unit to its factory settings. Nothing got rid of that taunting "Connecting..." message in the Sonar toolbar.

More info on OS etc would help but if you are on Windows 7 x64 IIRC you need the Windows driver NOT the Behringer ones. Uninstall them and let Windows use it's own driver when you connect it.

It's been a while since I connected mine in Mackie mode I use it as an ACT device now but it sounds like a driver issue to me.

Yup, I am indeed on Windows 7 x64 and Sonar X1. Are the drivers on the Behringer website actually older than the ones that ship with Windows 7 then? That seems like a major failure on Behringer's part.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion - I'll have a go at uninstalling them and see if that helps any.

If you run BCFEdit and do a scan what do you get? I agree that it sounds like a driver issue.

JWalsh


Yup, I am indeed on Windows 7 x64 and Sonar X1. Are the drivers on the Behringer website actually older than the ones that ship with Windows 7 then? That seems like a major failure on Behringer's part.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion - I'll have a go at uninstalling them and see if that helps any.

As far as I remember completely different as opposed to newer. I'm sure that's what fixed it for me but it was a couple of years ago, and pre-X1. Try it and let us know if it works just for anyone else searching for the same issue.

I'll have to try BCFEdit again and get back to you. I did try it, and from what I remember it didn't find anything. But I didn't understand what it was supposed to be doing at the time, so I didn't pay much attention.

The unit is happily sending MIDI messages over USB when I move the sliders, and I can record these in Sonar if I set the track to the right input, instead of attempting to set it up as a controller. Wouldn't that indicate that the driver itself was working correctly?

If you run BCFEdit it should at least confirm that it's not a driver issue. I'm assuming your BCF2000 is in U1 mode if you're connected via USB. In Sonar what is the name or names you see in the MIDI device manager? It should be the same listed in BCFEdit and the USB icon in the taskbar. In my case I have 2 BCF2000 and a BCR2000 but I believe the first one shows as BCF2000. To run in Mackie emulation mode they need to be enabled both in input and output in device manager and make sure you also select that same driver when you set up the Mackie control surface in the IN and OUT option.

When you do get it running here's a link to a user guide I put together

There's some links in that to a user's site on here called Blades who put together some videos that you may find helpful.

In Sonar the device is listed as "BCF2000". On the USB icon in the task bar it's the same. In BC-Edit there's nothing shown at all, except for the two virtual devices - I click scan, and it doesn't find the connected device.

I am running in U1 mode (although I've tried switching to MIDI connections instead of USB, and had the same lack of results). I've enabled the BCF2000's MIDI inputs in Sonar, and set up the right ones as the In and Out of the Mackie control surface.

I tried uninstalling the Behringer drivers. After a reboot, Win7 installed some new drivers. Following that, everything was exactly as before: USB light still on, device still sending MIDI fine, no devices listed in BC-Edit, no connection established in Sonar.

I know you've probably done all this but might be worth just double checking....

The BCF drivers are showing in Preferences->MIDI->Devices. There should be 3 different in port drivers and 2 out IIRC correctly, which relate to the USB port in/out and the 1 out/2 in on the rear (or is it the other way round - can't remember)

Anyway they should all be showing and checked. You also need to make sure that you have the correct ports selected in the control surface dialogue. Again working from memory that's something like BCF2000[A].

I'd also try a different USB cable just in case. If you have NcSO showing on the BCF when turned on (before starting X1), and the ports correctly assigned it should work but again IIRC it took me a while to get all of the drivers to install properly. If you have all of that and know the cable to be good, I would start to suspect the BCF itself. Is it new? Have you had it working in previous versions or elsewhere?

MIDI devices in Sonar shows only one Input and one Output device for the BCF2000, labelled "BCF2000" (this was the same before and after I removed the drivers BTW). I have selected these ports as the In and Out of the control surface. Is there supposed to be more than one of each?

I've tried different USB leads and different USB ports several times, out of sheer desperation - even though I can't see this being the problem, since USB communication has been established, and the device is sending MIDI to Sonar over USB fine.

The BCF2000 display shows "NCSo", I turn it on before starting Sonar, and still there's no connection. I've had it working just the once, seemingly at random. The display flicked over to "Tr" and Sonar connected on start-up every time... but as soon as I turned the device off and on again, returning to "NCSo" on the display, it never connected again.

Many thanks to all of you for the help. I'm beginning to suspect I'll never get this thing working, and I should just go back to my Nanokontrol and live with boring old non-motorised faders. :)

MIDI devices in Sonar shows only one Input and one Output device for the BCF2000, labelled "BCF2000" (this was the same before and after I removed the drivers BTW). I have selected these ports as the In and Out of the control surface. Is there supposed to be more than one of each?

My money is still on a driver issue then. There should definitely be more than one IIRC it's 3 in, 2 out. I'll need to check or perhaps someone who is using a BCF in Mackie mode can confirm that.

Does it work via the MIDI ports. i.e. MIDI cables to MIDI interface?

Interesting... I don't think I ever saw more than one entry for the BCF2000 in the MIDI drivers, throughout all of my attempts to get it working. I tried hooking it up via MIDI rather than USB, and ended up with the same result - MIDI messages sent from the device to Sonar, but no actual connection as a control surface.

It's no DRIVER issue but USER issue. First go to manual and set BCF into U4 (or U3?) mode - USB4 or USB3. THEN you'll see THREE inputs (first two working) and THREE outputs( all three working) on SONAR. Add Mackie device, as an input and output set BCF2000 PORT 1. Done :)

Thanks Adrian. Are you saying that the tutorials I've read are wrong, and the BCF2000 needs to be in U3 or U4 mode to work as a Mackie control surface? U1 mode, as the tutorials suggest, won't work for some reason? I'll certainly give that a try, thanks.

The U mode will definitely make a difference on driver numbers you see, but it should still work in U1 AFAIK.

Adrian4U I believe is using his in Mackie mode so he's in a better position to offer advice than myself. It's been a while since I used a BCF in Mackie mode and I'm working from (a hazy) memory

Same here. I'm running in USB U1 mode and I see only one driver BCF2000. I believe I've tried to run in U3 once to connect another MIDI device behind the BCF2000 and then I got multiple drivers but I can confirm it's working perfectly fine in U1 with only the BCF2000 driver. I'm not sure which driver I'm running (Windows or Behringer) so I'll check when I'm back at home later today. The interinsting info to me is that BCFEdit does not connect when you scan. Can you try BCFView? On my x64 machine it just displays a small blue square but if I right click on it I get a list of driver and I can select the BCF2000 driver. I'm really not sure what it does but it is listed in the install and I remember to have done it.

BCFView is the virtual scribble strip for the BCF in Mackie mode. Set the driver as you described and then you'll get the info displayed that a MCU displays. Track name/numbers parameter settings etc. etc. It's a huge help with navigating the BCF. I could never use the BCF in Mackie mode without it TBH.

There is a sequence to starting BCFView, Sonar and the BCF though which I can't remember now, I'm sure a current user will know.

Well it sounds like BCFView is great but I never could get the display to work on Win7/64. I ended up using your excellent documentation and creating a template like you have in the pictures.
In any case I have a feeling that JWalsh needs to have BCFView or BCFEdit to work first. Then it should be very straightforward to have Sonar to work.

Well it sounds like BCFView is great but I never could get the display to work on Win7/64

Depends on how long ago you last tried. There were issues with x64 but it was definitely working okay when I last used a BCF, probably 12 months or so ago.

There's also a definite sequence you have to follow, I think it's BCF on, start BCFView and then Sonar but I'm not completely sure that was it.

FastBikerBoy

Well it sounds like BCFView is great but I never could get the display to work on Win7/64

Depends on how long ago you last tried. There were issues with x64 but it was definitely working okay when I last used a BCF, probably 12 months or so ago.

There's also a definite sequence you have to follow, I think it's BCF on, start BCFView and then Sonar but I'm not completely sure that was it.

Well what do you know!!! Now that I understand what BCFView does, it's been working since the beginning. I didn't get that you needed to start Sonar to see something in the blue window. What about that - a brand new feature free of charge. Thanks man!
 
I also checked the BCF2000 drivers and I'm running the Behringer ones (64-bit - 1.0.10.0) not the Windows ones.

Ok glad you got it going. That's something for JWalsh to try then, after me spreading duff gen (again - sorry JWalsh) although I'm sure mine is on Windows drivers, I'd need to check to be sure.

Having said that it still doesn't explain why it wasn't working when the OP was on Behringer drivers.

This is reaching waaaaaaay back into the memory banks, but I seem to recall the BCF2000 had an affinity for the USB port in which it was first installed. If I tried to use it with a different port, it wouldn't work. Might have been an XP thing, though...

Anderton - there's a smart tool which allows you to "unbind" USB-MIDI drivers from USB ports. You can find it into USB-MIDI driver package from KORG. It works perfectly.
 
FBB - I use U3 or U4 mode because I have some external synths and I want to use MIDI IN-OUT ports in BCF/BCR.
I found no problems at all with this modes, moreover - I tried to run BCF in USB mode with re-transmission to BCR (in standalone mode) with MACKIE mapping on BCR - it runs well too.
 
Unfortunatelly SONAR (and ONLY SONAR) can't just work with BCR with Mackie map loaded.
It seems like SOnar waits for any kind of "handshaking".....
Epic fail, because merging BCF in Mackie Mode and BCR with Mackie map would allow to use all the best sides of having both controllers merged together as one.
What's funny - there's no such problems (handshaking) with any other DAW.

I gave BCView a try, and all I see is an empty blue strip. As I understand it, I'd have to be able to get the BCF2000 working in Sonar anyway, before I'd even expect to see anything in the BCView window?

As for the unit maybe having an affinity for the first USB port it's plugged into, that's an interesting possibility... I may well have had it in a different port when I first bought it. Sadly I've no idea which of my 10 USB ports it might have been!

It does seem to me like it's a simple handshake between Sonar and the BCF2000 which is failing - especially since the one time I did manage to get the unit into "Tr" mode, Sonar connected successfully every time I restarted it. If only there was some way to put the unit into "Tr" mode manually, or to "fool" it into doing so...

I'm also wondering whether the issue is with Sonar or the unit itself. Is there any freeware/shareware around that I could download which supports the BCF2000 in Mackie mode, complete with full bi-directional communication and moving faders? At least that way I'd know where the problem lies.

JWalsh - maybe it's a problem with binding drivers to USB ports.

you can unbind all (or choosen) by installing... KORG USB-MIDI drivers from www.korg.com - then running "Uninstall USB-MIDI drivers" from KORG / USB-MIDI Drivers Tools folder.
After running this app, uncheck "show Korg devices only", then uninstall all unneccesarry driver bindings.

And - what works with my BCF and my computer:
- it doesn't matter if I use dedicated Behinger drivers or just Win7 drivers
- I use BCF and BCR the same time
- depending on which device you install first, the name shown in Sonar / MIDIOX and other programs will go as "2BCF" or just "BCF"
- I use BCF and BCR in U3 or U4 mode (i can't remember now)
- I launch BCF in Mackie SONAR mode
- after running BCView I do rightclick and check BCF MIDI 1 port
- I launch SONAR
- in MIDI Devices I can see BCF MIDI IN 1 to 3 (check first two, MIDI IN3 is inactive)
- in MIDI Devices I can see BCF MIDI OUT 1 to 3 (all three are active)
- in Control Surfaces I add MACKIE (not XT or C4), with: MIDI IN - BCF MIDI IN 1; MIDI OUT - BCF MIDI OUT 1
- that's all.

What you should to know - if there's only one way communication between Sonar and BCF, go to Preferences / MIDI Devices and check if BCF name didn't change - it happens sometimes, and when it happen - you have to check INsand OUTs, confirm, then go to Control Surfaces tab and map ports once again.

JWalsh - I still think it's a driver issue. I seem to remember I had real difficulty getting the BCF going at first, 3 or 4 driver installs/uninstalls until it 'takes'.

The 'Tr' you are referring to is only going to happen once you get connected to Sonar, it's just indicating you are in Track Mode.

I don't know what else to suggest. Have you searched or seen the videos by Blades? He dealt with BCF Sonar connection.

I had no problems with Behringer or native Windows7 (32 or 64bit) drivers.

Try this utility from KORG. You don't have to delete any binding, but alt least you'll see if any of bindings is broken.

Thanks again guys for all the suggestions.

adrian4u - I'll trying unbinding the MIDI drivers using that Korg utility, it sounds like it's worth a try. The steps that you list to connect the unit sound like exactly what I'm already doing I'm afraid, so I know that's not the problem.

FastBikerBoy - I'll try a couple more driver install/uninstalls, and see if that kicks it into life. If it wasn't for the fact that I had it working once I'd just put it down to a broken BCF2000 and cut my losses.

I realise that "Tr" just indicates that the unit is connected - but the fact it stayed in Track mode after I closed Sonar, and that Sonar would subsequently connect to it just fine, makes me wish I could somehow force the BCF2000 into that mode.

Also, I hope to find some other software to try out with the unit. In all the searching of the net that I've done, the few people who seem to be having similar problems to me all report that it's only Sonar which has caused them problems, and the unit connects fine to other software like Reason.

JWalsh - I tried to explain this "USB-MIDI" issue in another post. It's like you have limited number of devices (driverd)  that can be "virtually" binded to one USB port, and to all the ports in general.

If you change USB port where your device is connected, system installs drivers again - to NEW USB PORT, and don't delete old binding. So it's easy to make system "full".
I had some issues with it, my friends too and the best (and only) way was this small utility from KORG. It makes something with registry maybe, I don't really know and I don't care - because it works!

And thanks to this util you can see even "Strange" things like your grapgic card with HDMI output can block some "virtual" USB ports with its audio drivers.
This is another issue and as far as you don't use HDMI audio output it's good to make ANY HDMI audio outs INACTIVE in Windows System Manager.

Another thing - in System Manager too - is going to USB ports and turn off energy saving on all the ports.

In a fact it's basic system optimalisation, but you vcan do it by yourself with no danger of malfunctions.

Okay, thanks for all the advice guys, but unless anyone has any more tricks up their sleeves, I think it's time I gave up on this.

I tried a couple more driver installs / uninstalls, but Sonar still stubbornly refuses to connect to the BCF2000 as a Mackie control surface, despite the fact it's connecting over USB and sending MIDI data perfectly.

That Korg utility is very handy, thanks. I deleted all sorts of useless entries that were clogging up the system. Sadly, that didn't help Sonar to connect either.

One last thing I would like to try is connecting the BCF2000 to other software, just so I know for my own peace of mind that Sonar is the problem. But I don't have any other software that will use the BCF2000 in Mackie mode. Does anyone know of any that I could download a freeware or trial version of?

Anderton


This is reaching waaaaaaay back into the memory banks, but I seem to recall the BCF2000 had an affinity for the USB port in which it was first installed. If I tried to use it with a different port, it wouldn't work. Might have been an XP thing, though...

I didn't read this whole thread - so maybe this was covered -- but I had to make sure "Sysex" was turned on in the options for my BCF to work - and had to load a project.


The sysex was the trick for me basically. I had it turned off previously.

Good call Billy, I'd forgotten all about that.

I never heard of it - where you turn on or off? in SONAR?

Preferences->MIDI->Playback & Recording

Cheers Billy, that sounded worth a go, but when I checked Sysex was already enabled in my Sonar Preferences. I assume that's where you meant to turn it on, rather than somewhere on the device itself?

JWalsh


Cheers Billy, that sounded worth a go, but when I checked Sysex was already enabled in my Sonar Preferences. I assume that's where you meant to turn it on, rather than somewhere on the device itself?

Yes.  Hmm, are you in Mackie Mode on the uiit?  


I just had my apartement painted so I'm still putting my entire system back together (hopefully by tomorrow will be ready) and can look into this further.

It's always possible you have a defective unit but I don't think it's the case. So far our best assumption were the driver but after all the testing you did I don't think so anymore. I'm now pretty sure that it is just Sonar that is stuck on an invalid state about your BCF2000 driver. I'm not sure how or where but Sonar keeps track of those drivers which allows it to warn you if they disappear or reappear (like shuting down the unit while Sonar is running). So to prove it I messed around with my config and the BCF2000 until I could reproduce your problem. Which I was able to do eventually: have a"Mackie Control" surface defined with a BCF2000 driver as IN and OUT but stuck in "connecting" mode with "ncso" on the display of the BCF2000. I'm not entirely sure how you force Sonar to reset the state but here's something I'd like you to try.
 

1. Create a new project. Delete all control surfaces, save it and exit Sonar.
2. Restart Sonar. Make sure the BCF2000 drivers are active and checked in MIDI devices. Then add a "Mackie Control" (make sure it's not the C4 or XT one) with BCF2000 as IN and OUT. In all likeliness you should get stuck in Connecting mode as usual. Save the project and exit Sonar.
3. Restart Sonar. If it does not connect then make sure the BCF2000 drivers are still active and checked, and make sure the surface still has BCF2000 as IN and OUT. Again save the project and exit Sonar.
4. Restart Sonar and I'm willing to bet that this time it will connect and your BCF2000 will switch to track mode.

Good luck!
 

Efesta, you are an absolute genius. :)

I'm not entirely sure what part of your procedure did the trick, but I followed your instructions to the letter, and managed to get Sonar to connect to my BCF2000 for the first time in days.

Unfortunately this hasn't resulted in a permanent fix. As soon as I turn the BCF off and on again, Sonar is once again unable to connect to it properly, and I have to go through the whole procedure again. I'm not entirely sure what part of the procedure did the trick either - I need to do some more experimenting to narrow down the possibilities. I think the fact that I turned the unit off while Sonar was running may have been part of the solution.

Thank you for the help, I'd pretty much given up hope of ever getting it working until I saw your post. I'll report back here if I find out any more, or if I manage to establish an easy way to kick it into life.

You're welcome!
 
Well in reality I never turn my BCFs off so it is possible the same situation exists with everybody
 
I noted that when Sonar is running, if you turn the BCF off, it will prompt you to reassign the surface. I always answer NO in order to maintain the existing config valid. I have a feeling if you answer YES that it might be one way of creating your situation. In my case if I turn the BCF on right away, within 20 or 30 sec. Sonar will prompt again and ask if it should add the new found driver. As soon as I answer YES (or OK maybe?) then it connects right away and the BCF goes in track mode.
 
FBB mentioned it at some point, there is definitely a sequence in play here. I know for sure that the BCF has to be ON before you start Sonar and the saved Control Surface config has to be valid because Sonar initialize all Control Surfaces before you even open a project. If Sonar detects anything wrong at that stage it will likely flag the config and maybe even the driver as faulty and I'm not sure there is a way to reset it without a restart. Now I agree that it does not explain why you end up needing that many restart to get a complete reset.
 
Let us know if you find a better way to fix it.

adrian4u


Anderton - there's a smart tool which allows you to "unbind" USB-MIDI drivers from USB ports. You can find it into USB-MIDI driver package from KORG. It works perfectly. 

Is it the driver package on this page?

http://www.korg.co.uk/downloads/driver/dl_driver.asp

yup - it ahould be there. Install, then go to folder in START menu, choose icon described "uninstall KORG USB-MIDI controller" - or something like this. Launch it, then in program options choose to show all the drivers. Next - check those failed, broken or unneccesarry. And uninstall them............... after rebooting computer you can install your controller drivers once again. BTW - CASE WITH BCF - sometimes after turning it on and launching Sonar - Sonar don't see BCF - it's because SOMETIMES in system - BCF canges it's name (or system changes BCR2000 sescription). Sonar is silly and doens't recognise controller under new or modified name.