Help a newbie MIDI (cont)- recording a track using GR20 guitar synth.-Delay?

My first attempt at MIDI recording - I'm trying to record my GR20 guitar synth.
1.GR20 Synth set to Local control off,
2.MIDI cable out to MAudio interface MIDI in, to Computer Via USB.
3.Sonar started and pref set to USB Audio Device (at top)
4.MIDI channel enabled.
5. Monitor with headphones into computer.
Results
I can see the meters work, hear the GR20 sounds and it records them in MIDI (Woo Hoo!) but it's delayed by about 1/8 sec or so in the ears.
What's next? IOW how do I monitor with no delay?

Damn. A lot of good questions. I thought it might be simple.
System= intel Core2 Duo CPU E4600 @ 2.4 GHz, 2 GHz RAM
MAudio unit is maybe too simple a unit (1x1) -It has no headphone out.
If I use the GR20's headphone out there is no sound.
MAudio is USB to computer.
GR20 is MIDI out to the MAudio in order to get midi to the computer.(the point of my exercise)
(I can do the Audio recording from the GR20 to the computer no problem.)

I do get recorded midi data into the track.
I do get output from the computer sound card. I assumed because the master out is set to the sound card.
Track 2 (active) is MIDI and I haven't touched any settings there.
Under its FX area there is a C (none), a B (bank:---) and P (none)

The playback is the GR20's sample sound. IOW it appears to be recording the sample from the GR20 and I can hear that thru the computer if the GR20 is off or on and it looks like MIDI not Waves.

There's quite a few issues in the original post, but to take one of them first.
 
I don't know the the GR20, but looking at its specs it's basically like most hardware synths (except the controller's a guitar not a keyboard).
 
There's MIDI in and out, audio outs and guitar in.
 
So.
 
The connections should look like this:
 
Guitar to GR20.
GR20 MIDI out to the M-Audio interface's MIDI in.
GR20 MIDI in to the M-Audio interface's MIDI out.
GR20 audio outs to the M-Audio's audio inputs.
 
In Sonar's preferences, go the the project bit and in the window controlling MIDI sync (can't remember which exact tab it is, sorry) tell Sonar to send MIDI clock to the M-Audio interface. Set the GR20 to receive MIDI clock (if possible).
 
A MIDI track in Sonar should be set to receive input from the M-Audio MIDI interface and output to it on whichever channel the GR20- is set to receive MIDI. That track will record MIDI and send it out to the GR20 on playback, and (I assume) that audio should be audible at the GR20 headphones outlet.
 
Does that work? If it does, there should be very little latency as only MIDI is being sent in/out of Sonar.
 
If instead you monitor by echoing an audio track set to record the synth's output then you will get latency. Probably a lot of latency the way you're doing it. Latency is caused by the amount of time it takes for the audio data to get in to the PC, pass through Sonar and get out again - computers are fast, but it still takes a measurable amount of time for the processing to happen.
 
As has been said, as a first step you need to be using low-latency ASIO/WASAPI drivers for the sound card/interface, and that also means using only one interface. The M-Audio almost certainly has ASIO drivers available, a PC soundcard may or may not work using the freeware ASIO4ALL drivers but I'd suggest the M-Audio is the way to go (though you'll need a headphone amp or a pair of monitors)
 
You may well also need to optimise your computer as far as possible for DAW work. At a very minimum, disable any wireless/bluetooth networking interfaces in Window's control/panel/system, and have as few background tasks as possible running. Also set the PC's power savings scheme so it never goes to sleep or shuts anything off, and disable processor core parking if you're using Win7.
 
There's hints on tackling latency in the Sonar manual, and searching this forum will find you a huge amount of useful information. Just ignore any tweaks specifically recommended for WinXP - they generally aren't needed for Vista or later).

I have experience with a similar set up using Roland V-Drums with the M-Audio Midisport.

Similar to your guitar synth, I tried tracking the audio outputs from the V-Drums and the midi output simultaneously (though I did not use the Midi In to trigger the drum sounds, though experience indicates this step will introduce yet more latency.)

Long story short, the MAudio Midisport introduced significant delay into the captured Midi.  That problem was only resolved when I purchased my current soundcard, which captures audio and midi data in perfect sync from my V-Drums.  So partially physics, no doubt.  But the MAudio Midisport is a crappy piece of gear.

I have a Roland GR33.  It can trigger keyboards OK live, but the Roland units do have a bit of delay with the MIDI coming out of them... and down the line as described above.  It's not a perfect system, but is workable to use your guitar to record MIDI on the computer.  MUCH more often, I just record the analog out of the unit as an audio track, realizing the limitations afterwards of that... IOW, not MIDI "correcting"...or changing sounds, etc.

Like I said... live, using it to trigger other MIDI devices works fine...but when recording, the latency shows up much more.

Midi cables don't send audio. Any audio you are hearing is being generated. Now, the Gr20 cable between guitar and gr20 can carry audio if you plug it into your guitar jack as well (you know what I'm talking about). But a midi cable only carries midi signal. So the sound generation is happening on your machine.
 
Don't be annoyed but I feel I should point out that a midi cable is not a standard 1/4 inch guitar cable.

A further possibility is that I have only the one cable attached tho the GR20 manual's graphics for hooking to a MIDI interface and then to a  computer show both in and out being used?.(I only have one at this point..another thing to go on the list to buy.)

I've been playing guitars for a lot of years, and I personally have a hard time seeing the benefit of capturing the midi from a guitar (not knock the guitar synth concept tho!)

I would just track the audio out straight from your synth.  You'll likely move heaven and earth to get this to work, only to ultimately find the foregoing was true to begin with!

I think it's a lot of fun to use Cakewalk as a guitar synth. There are tons of great sounds. Additionally, the synth points out my guitar errors rather glaringly, helping me become a better player... for example, after barring a low F chord, I get a low E when I move to the next chord because I wasn't properly damping the low E. Midi is tons of fun and it isn't that hard to do (especially since he owns the gr20).

TLW thanks for replying
"Guitar to GR20.
GR20 MIDI out to the M-Audio interface's MIDI in.
GR20 MIDI in to the M-Audio interface's MIDI out.
GR20 audio outs to the M-Audio's audio inputs. (Not available on the M Audio interface)
 
In Sonar's preferences, go the the project bit and in the window controlling MIDI sync (can't remember which exact tab it is, sorry) tell Sonar to send MIDI clock to the M-Audio interface. Set the GR20 to receive MIDI clock (if possible).
 
A MIDI track in Sonar should be set to receive input from the M-Audio MIDI interface and output to it on whichever channel the GR20- is set to receive MIDI. That track will record MIDI and send it out to the GR20 on playback, and (I assume) that audio should be audible at the GR20 headphones outlet.
  Does that work?"

No but thanks for trying.
GR 20 has no way to receive a clock as far as I can find.
I can't hear the computer's midi output on the GR20 headphones.
I'm afraid I'm getting close to abandoning MIDI as I have no way to input MIDI real time thru the guitar while playing along with other tracks due to the delay.
Without the GR20 as an interface I don't see the point.
Other than learning keyboards and buying one that is designed to do the job.
This could still be a function of a poor card I guess.
I could try installing Sonar on my (fairly powerful) laptop but again, it probably needs a new sound card to handle it.
Sigh..

This is very concise and has shown me there is something unusable with the chain here.
The cables are all hooked up fine and tested.
I can get as far on your list as selecting a soft synth (TTS-1) and, as on other configs:
1.There is no sound from sonar in the headset connected to the GR20 unless I disable Local Control on it and then all I get is the GR20 sounds there. (It will record tho)
2. I get no playback sounds and no lights flashing on the MAudio if Out is set to a soft synth.  (TTS-1)
3.The lights flash during play if Out is set to the M Audio. but nothing on either headset.

The differences I have are:
-No headphone on the MINISPORT (I can only use The GR20 or the Computer)
-Perhaps a crappy soundcard

At the risk of stating the obvious, shouldn't you be using your Boss BR800 as an audio interface ("soundcard")?

http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=1068


"The differences I have are: 
-No headphone on the MINISPORT (I can only use The GR20 or the Computer)  -Perhaps a crappy soundcard "

This makes it sound to me like you haven't configured the BR800 as an ASIO soundcard ("interface").  The BR800 will function as a soundcard with dedicated driver for audio production (ASIO) for use in Cakewalk.  The BR800 provides both headphone and line out for monitoring.


Setting up your basic audio drivers for the Boss unit should be priority one, before moving forward with midi.

Ok.. you have to INSERT a SYNTH in the SYNTH RACK and set the output of your MIDI track to be the SYNTH you INSERT as described above.
 
If you aren't sure about this, hit F1 for help and type in soft synths and follow instructions.
 
Once you have a synth, Like the Cakewalk TTS1 with a program loaded, set the output of the MIDI track to be the INPUT in the SYNTH track. Then when you play your guitar, the level on the midi track should move, and so will the level of the synth track. Send the output of the Synth track to your headphones from the computer.
 
This should be audible.

Everything Flows
At the risk of stating the obvious, shouldn't you be using your Boss BR800 as an audio interface ("soundcard")?
http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=1068
"The differences I have are: 
-No headphone on the MINISPORT (I can only use The GR20 or the Computer)  -Perhaps a crappy soundcard "
This makes it sound to me like you haven't configured the BR800 as an ASIO soundcard ("interface").  The BR800 will function as a soundcard with dedicated driver for audio production (ASIO) for use in Cakewalk.  The BR800 provides both headphone and line out for monitoring.
Setting up your basic audio drivers for the Boss unit should be priority one, before moving forward with midi.

This could well be true for all I know. I'd be more than delighted to find I didn't need a new sound card and the BR800 does sound great while tracking and playing back audio on it's own.
I have been using the BR800 for audio recording and then converting and exporting wave files to Sonar for editing by drag and drop but never had much success as a controller to Sonar due to setup confusions and learning curves.
My logic went- because it doesn't have MIDI in or out, I assumed it was not useful for that anyway? (IOW I can't plug my GR20 synth or my DR880 drum machine into it via MIDI)
Indeed much of the thrust to learn MIDI was to coordinate tracking with the BR800 and the DR880 drums and GR20 in Sonar.

I hope we are not getting distracted with too many new things happening here as I still have not figured how to hear the TTS1 play the recorded midi track.