Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ?

Post
pompom
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
2012/01/03 10:53:29
Hi everyone,

I have recently bring back my piano Kawai in order to have a good fingerboard to compose.

But a very annoying problem occurs, sometimes when I press the sustain pedal it plays a E4 and also keeps the sustain on endlessly...

I read on the forums that the sustain pedal produces a CC 64 an it can be misinterpret to be a E4.

I would like to know how to disable the assignment in Sonar, I went to Options->intrument->define but I don't understand anything...

Thanks :p 
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
Re:Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ? 2012/01/03 11:12:11
I read on the forums that the sustain pedal produces a CC 64 an it can be misinterpret to be a E4. I would like to know how to disable the assignment in Sonar



The sustain pedal is just an on/off switch (or more rarely, a continuously variable resistor) . It's the keyboard that reads the state of the pedal and generates the CC64 messages. If your keyboard is sending a Note On for E4 when you press the pedal, that's a problem with the keyboard or its configuration. SONAR cannot misinterpret or re-map messages in that way.


I suggest you consult your keyboard's user manual. Also, make sure the keyboard is not sending CC123, All Notes Off, when the last key is released, as some synths do not interpret that correctly and Sustain will not work normally with them. Again, this is not a SONAR problem per se, though some of Cakewalk's own synths (e.g. Dim Pro) have this problem. But the symptoms are different , so that's not the issue here; I just wanted to warn you of another problem you could encounter with an older keyboard. It seems most newer controllers do not send All Notes Off.







pompom
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
Re:Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ? 2012/01/03 11:24:51
Are your sure about this ?

I find that on an apple forum for logic pro and someone says : "In Logic, open your *Controller Assigments window* (cmd-K), select the message that transforms your CC 64 into an F4, and delete it."

https://discussions.apple...6?start=0&tstart=0

Is impossible to do the same in Sonar ?

BTW, thanks for your very quick answer ^^.
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
Re:Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ? 2012/01/03 12:06:26
Yes, I'm quite sure it is not possible to transform/remap messages in SONAR in that way without a third-party MIDI FX plugin of some sort.

SONAR can modify note event parameters and controller values in various ways using built-in MIDI FX, and but it cannot transform a MIDI controller message in real time, and AFAIK, there's no way to convert a controller message to a Note On even by deliberate effort.

I suggest you install a MIDI monitor like MIDI-OX (direct port monitoring) or RS-Met (VST plugin) to help determine/confirm where the message is being generated/transformed. The other possibility is that a specific synth you're using is misinterpreting the CC64 message as a Note On.

If you record some pedal events do you see the correct messages in the Event View?
konradh
Max Output Level: -42 dBFS
Re:Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ? 2012/01/03 13:49:53
I suggest arming a MIDI track, hitting record, pressing and releasing the pedal, and then looking in the Event List for the track to see what is recorded.  If you see an E4 recorded in the Event List and no CC64 message, then I would look at the keyboard config as suggested above.
 
Controller and note messages are completely different data types in the Event List and have different parameters.
 
Also, don't shoot me for asking, but are you 100% sure you have the right pedal and it is plugged into the right place?  Just trying to isolate the problem, and, trust me, I have wasted hours trying to figure out a problem that was caused by a cable mix-up.
lfm
Max Output Level: -53 dBFS
Re:Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ? 2012/01/03 14:55:47
pompom


Are your sure about this ?

I find that on an apple forum for logic pro and someone says : "In Logic, open your *Controller Assigments window* (cmd-K), select the message that transforms your CC 64 into an F4, and delete it."

https://discussions.apple...6?start=0&tstart=0

Is impossible to do the same in Sonar ?

BTW, thanks for your very quick answer ^^.

Well, there are drummaps that do this -  you can remap any incoming to something that is sent inside Sonar.
Some are ready for certain edrum kits etc.

But these are not loaded by default as far as I know.

Thinking there might be something to load a midi track ready for drums somehow.

But since it only happends now and then - I think you should try switch midi cables. Something corrupts incoming data.

Hope you light a bulb somehow and find out what you did ;)

brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
Re:Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ? 2012/01/03 15:16:40
Well, there are drummaps that do this -  you can remap any incoming to something that is sent inside Sonar.



AFAIK, a Drum Map can only re-map note events, not controllers.
bitflipper
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Re:Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ? 2012/01/03 19:20:54


AFAIK, a Drum Map can only re-map note events, not controllers. 



That is correct: drum maps only translate notes, channel numbers and velocities. Plugins do exist that modify MIDI data on the fly (such as the Cakewalk MIDI Event Filter) but even then controllers are controllers and notes are notes and it would be pretty weird to intermingle the two. 

 I have an old plugin that I've never actually used, from TenCrazy.com called "MFX Sustain Fix". It has a bunch of options, some of which I don't even know what they do (e.g. "Fake Hold Pedal Functionality"). It might be worth downloading just to see if there's anything of value to you there. 

While you're there on TenCrazy.com, pick up the portdiag utility so you can see what's actually coming in. That would tell you if the controller is sending a note whenever you press the sustain pedal, in which case the issue is definitely within the Kawai.






frankandfree
Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
Re:Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ? 2012/01/03 22:04:56

Incidentally the note E4 is note number 64, so to change a CC64 on a certain channel of a certain value to a note E4 on that same channel and with a velocity equaling the CC's value just needs flipping the status nibble from a B to a 9. (Maybe Bitflipper's evil twin Nibbleflipper is playing his tricks on you :D)
Example:
CC 64, channel 1, value 127 is sent as (the binary translation of) 
B0 40 7F, while a note E4, channel 1 velocity 127 is
90 40 7F

It is indeed tempting to think a realtime conversion takes place (with dry signal getting through, so to say, as it still seems to trigger the sustain). 
Does releasing the sustain pedal stop the note? That would further hint towards a CC to Note mapping somewhere in the MIDI stream (sustain value 0 would become E4 velocity 0 and stop the note).

Edit:
Just as an aside, mapping notes to CC can be interesting. You can eg play weird stepped automation of a CC affecting a filter cutoff frequency or the like by transforming  the notes coming out of an arpeggiator as you play it. The other way 'round, CC to notes... well, I'm sure I did that as well but can't remember why :)



edited to add the edit




post edited by frankandfree - 2012/01/03 22:18:37
konradh
Max Output Level: -42 dBFS
Re:Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ? 2012/01/03 23:11:31
You don't say which Kawai you have, but I looked at the manual for the MP6 as an example of a commmon Kawai. The Damper Jack and Footswitch Jack are right next to each other. For sustain, you should use the Damper Jack. The menu in the keyboard can be set to assign different functions to the Footswitch Jack; so, if you have the pedal plugged into the Footswitch Jack—a very easy and logical mistake—the menu could be set up to interpret that switch as a note. Also, if you are saying that this problem only happens sometimes, it may be that you only plug the pedal into the wrong jack sometimes. Trust me, I get things like this backwards all the time: hard to see back behind keyboards sometimes. Just a thought.
pompom
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
Re:Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ? 2012/01/04 08:27:55
konradh


    
Also, don't shoot me for asking, but are you 100% sure you have the right pedal and it is plugged into the right place?  Just trying to isolate the problem, and, trust me, I have wasted hours trying to figure out a problem that was caused by a cable mix-up.


Yeah, I'm sure the pedal is the right one because my piano (Kawai L1) works in stand-alone and I have played for years on it, the sustain pedal has no problem.

Actually, I may forgot to say that my sustain pedal plays a E5 (and not E4, whatever...) but also does his job ^^ .

I recorded something to test my pedal like you suggested it, and the events list show me this :

 Controller - Sustain Switch - 127 
 Controller - Sustain Switch - 127  
 Controller - Sustain Switch - 0
 Controller - Sustain Switch - 127 
 Controller - Sustain Switch - 0 
  Note - E5 - 127
  Note - E5 - 127 
  Note - E5 - 127 
  Controller - Sustain Switch - 127 
 ...

Firstly my pedal seems to be perfect, then after pressing 5-7 times it plays a E5 and the Controller is disabled, then the pedal plays alternatively a note or works as a controller...

It seems there is something which misinterpret the signal a moment then turns off the Controller effect...

By the way, I have also a odd connection and I realize it may be the tricky part... I'm using a converter cable (MIDI to USB) and if I connect it like I should (Cable In -> Piano Out and Cable Out -> Piano In) it doesn't work. If I invert those cables Sonar detects the midi signal but a lot of note play endlessly... the only solution if found is to connect the Cable Out in the Piano Out only and let the Cable In unplugged...

I suddenly realize that it could be the problem's origin but like I said, I have no sound in the other cases.
konradh
Max Output Level: -42 dBFS
Re:Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ? 2012/01/04 10:34:07
Wow, that event list is really surprising and interesting.    Based on the new information about the cable, my solution would be to plug the keyboard into a standard USB MIDI interface instead of using the cable.  You can probably pick up a 2x2 interface for next to nothing.  (I have an extra sitting on my shelf, but the shipping would probably be more than the price you'd pay at a local pawn shop.)  Good luck!
pompom
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
Re:Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ? 2012/01/04 10:41:58
What do you call a standard USB MIDI interface ? I don't understand :p 

(thanks for your help ^^, and indeed I'm living in France so the shipping would be higher :) )
bitflipper
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Re:Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ? 2012/01/04 11:26:57
A typo, I think. What he meant to say is a "standard MIDI interface", not a "standard USB MIDI interface". Which is to say a classic 5-pin DIN connection, which does avoid many problems that MIDI-over-USB can exhibit. It is my preferred method. In this case, though, I doubt it would make any difference.
konradh
Max Output Level: -42 dBFS
Re:Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ? 2012/01/04 12:35:42
What I meant was getting a MIDI interface that connects to the computer via USB and to the keyboard via MIDI.  It sounds like the OP is using some kind of unusual cable converter. 
bitflipper
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Re:Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ? 2012/01/04 15:52:53
Oh. I didn't pick up on that.

pompom, are you going straight into a USB port from a USB out on the keyboard, or are you using MIDI-to-USB converter? Hope it's not one of those $10 inline converter cables!
lfm
Max Output Level: -53 dBFS
Re:Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ? 2012/01/05 01:38:53
brundlefly



Well, there are drummaps that do this -  you can remap any incoming to something that is sent inside Sonar.



AFAIK, a Drum Map can only re-map note events, not controllers.


So you cannot remap the hihat controller from #CC02 to #CC04(or whatever) if you need, that is pretty bad.
Must check this....maybe Sonar is useless to my new edrums after all.

Brando
Max Output Level: -47.5 dBFS
Re:Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ? 2012/01/05 10:14:55
lfm


brundlefly



Well, there are drummaps that do this -  you can remap any incoming to something that is sent inside Sonar.



AFAIK, a Drum Map can only re-map note events, not controllers.


So you cannot remap the hihat controller from #CC02 to #CC04(or whatever) if you need, that is pretty bad.
Must check this....maybe Sonar is useless to my new edrums after all.
No it's not. Normally the edrum module will take care of interpreting the controller signal to a corresponding note output, as well as assigning the cc for the pedal itself.
For example, a cc04 may be a high hat controller - which will output an A4 open note, an F#4 closed note, an A3 Foot Note, and an A4 splash note, as well as different open notes reflecting one or more open positions.
The purpose of the SONAR drum map is to allow the edrum kit to interface with a wider variety of sound modules/samplers. But this would all be MIDI note values at this point, not CC's which would be the responsibility of the edrum module itself.
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
Re:Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ? 2012/01/05 11:41:14
pompom, are you going straight into a USB port from a USB out on the keyboard, or are you using MIDI-to-USB converter? Hope it's not one of those $10 inline converter cables!



I agree. You need a good MIDI interface with both In and Out connected to the keyboard, and the keyboard set to Local Off and not set to use the Out as a Thru.
pompom
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
Re:Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ? 2012/01/05 12:02:27
I'm using a cable which has two MIDI cable linked to a little bow with electronics, then linked to a USB cable.

My piano is set to Local Off.
lfm
Max Output Level: -53 dBFS
Re:Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ? 2012/01/05 14:55:45
Brando


lfm


brundlefly



Well, there are drummaps that do this -  you can remap any incoming to something that is sent inside Sonar.



AFAIK, a Drum Map can only re-map note events, not controllers.


So you cannot remap the hihat controller from #CC02 to #CC04(or whatever) if you need, that is pretty bad.
Must check this....maybe Sonar is useless to my new edrums after all.
No it's not. Normally the edrum module will take care of interpreting the controller signal to a corresponding note output, as well as assigning the cc for the pedal itself.
For example, a cc04 may be a high hat controller - which will output an A4 open note, an F#4 closed note, an A3 Foot Note, and an A4 splash note, as well as different open notes reflecting one or more open positions.
The purpose of the SONAR drum map is to allow the edrum kit to interface with a wider variety of sound modules/samplers. But this would all be MIDI note values at this point, not CC's which would be the responsibility of the edrum module itself.


Thanks, but I can't follow your reasoning how Sonar would be more open to other interfaces by putting all responsibility over to edrum unit to support whatever Sonar supports, translating notes only?

Anyway CC04 is fixed from edrum module for footcontroller and I just guess this is standard and would be supported by samplers like SuperiorDrummer 2.x, AddictiveDrums or whatever - or possibly adjustable in their plugins. It's up to the receiving unit to look for openness of hihat from cc04, notes I must check if that varies with cc04 when hitting hh pad.

The old DFH I moved into Vsampler and there I can easily remap anything.

And there is MidiFx that you can use, but I just don't get why they left out midi cc in Sonar when doing a drummap translation thingy. It's among the easier things you can do programmatically. It might be the good starting project for me doing a midiFx since I want to learn that.

bitflipper
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Re:Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ? 2012/01/05 22:01:34
I'm using a cable which has two MIDI cable linked to a little bow with electronics, then linked to a USB cable.

Dollars to donuts that's where your problem lies. See if you can get hold of a proper MIDI interface, maybe borrow one from a friend, and see if your issues go away.
pompom
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
Re:Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ? 2012/01/06 12:13:59
I guess your right, it's probably the cable which worth nothing ^^.

As soon as I can I will go to a music store and try to find a better cable.

Thank you, I will inform you when I have my cable, if it works or not.
konradh
Max Output Level: -42 dBFS
Re:Sustain pedal plays a E, how to fix it ? 2012/01/06 13:07:27
I agree with Mr Bitflipper that you might want to go with regular interface instead of cable.  Here's one for $49:
 
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XMIDI2x2/
 
And here's one for $69. 

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MIDISport2AE/
 
I have and have used both brands with no issues.  I am currently using a MIDISport 4x4.  
Anyone you know who's used MIDI and a PC for very long probably has an extra interface around somewhere.
post edited by konradh - 2012/01/06 13:49:12