Helpful ReplyDetails on Sonar X1D and vstudio 700 integration

I know that the new release is supposed work better with our systems.  i did not get to see the live streaming event.  Can someone give me the details on how it is going better integrate?  New features for us?

Don't have any yet. Have you checked the X1D page?

They showed a couple of new commands with control button and track or another one to insert tracks and do some other stuff new to X1d and vs-700 and they said there would be more. Guess we have to wait to find out all of the new commands.

Well - X1d is out.  Has anyone else tried the integration with VS-700C?  I am finding lots of things that aren't working properly and wondered if it is just me and something strange with my configuration.  Some of the things I have found so far...

- Although I can adjust many of the parameters in the ProChannel's FET Compressor (Softube) there is no adjustment for Ratio.  Strangely there are adjustments for Sidechain and Lookahead which don't appear on screen for the PC version.  The values displayed on the VS-700 do not match the PC display.  For example, Output 20dB on the PC is displayed as 1.0dB on the VS-700C.

- On the Quad Curve EQ there doesn't appear to be anyway to change the EQ type.  It comes up defaulting to "Hybrid" - although the VS-700 says it is "Pure" or "??".

- Concrete Limiter: The values on the VS-700C display are worlds apart from those on the PC display.

- PC4K S-Type Channel Compressor:  Threshold goes from 0 to -30dB on the PC display, and 0dB to 1.0dB on the VS-700C display.  The Ratio goes from 1.00:1 to Inf:1 on the PC display, and from 0.0:1 to 1.0:1 on the VS-700C.

I'm sure there are many other problems and little annoyances.  I am running V700 firmware 1.31 and Windows X64 Driver Version 2.0.0.

There is certainly a lot to like with X1d but it doesn't look like the VS-700C integration was rigorously tested.

Is anyone else seeing the same things.

Don

The resonsiveness of the select button through tracks and busses have been greatly improved.  That was one of my main problems and this has been adressed.

I don't have the softube bundle but I've experienced everything else you describe.

I would add that the labels on the console for all prochannels modules on tracks have disapeared after using Sonar for a while.  Have not rebooted Sonar but felt this was strange.  The labels on the buss still apeared but when I switched to track the labels disapeared.  I tryied swapping thourgh the pages thinking I was on an empty one with no luck.

Still no matching labels/layout for the EQ on the console... I thought that would have been a good timing to do this...

I am somewhat disappointed with the ProChannel implementation. I'm going to mess with it a bit more and see what I think, but yeah, lots of weird labelling and mapping.

Concerning the display that disapear on the channel strip in track view, it's a weird combination of activating the eq and messing with the high/low shelf. Not shure at all and I've not been able to "trigger" it but I'll try for shure.  It happened again tonight.

Any more findings about the mapping in X1D? I am thinking of getting a V 700 C the main reason being the communication with the pro channel. If this doesnt work properly then I'll have to rethink.

Could we please get somebody from Cakewalk to confirm these issues and if this will be fixed? These bug issues cannot be left in this condition if this is a relevant issue.

Here's the knowledge base article which lists the changes and fixes in X1d's VS-700c integration ...

http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/kb/reader.aspx/2007013277

SP

I've no wish to be rude, and I hope this is taken in the spirit of honest criticism in which its meant. I think X1d is, on the whole, an excellent update. But the v700 implementation looks like little more than a box ticking exercise. To give just one example of many: on the pc4k channel compressor, instead of the the enable button being on a button, and being on the fourth of the EQ / SEND buttons, like all the previous modules, enable is a *knob*. And to switch between the two states - on and off - you have to twist the knob and it changes values between 0.0 and 1.0, flipping from on to off at some arbitrary point. I mean, what? There are many other such bizarre mapping choices throughout the modules. Also, the EQ has lost its global enable / disable control from the v700. So that's one that's actually got *worse*. Really incredibly disappointed with this.

John T


I've no wish to be rude, and I hope this is taken in the spirit of honest criticism in which its meant. I think X1d is, on the whole, an excellent update. But the v700 implementation looks like little more than a box ticking exercise. To give just one example of many: on the pc4k channel compressor, instead of the the enable button being on a button, and being on the fourth of the EQ / SEND buttons, like all the previous modules, enable is a *knob*. And to switch between the two states - on and off - you have to twist the knob and it changes values between 0.0 and 1.0, flipping from on to off at some arbitrary point. I mean, what? There are many other such bizarre mapping choices throughout the modules. Also, the EQ has lost its global enable / disable control from the v700. So that's one that's actually got *worse*. Really incredibly disappointed with this.

You know you can globally remap the modules, just like plugins, right?


SP

I didn't know that, no. How do you do it?

That would pretty much deal with my only objection (though I still think the defaults are, um, interesting:) ). But I can't work out how to change it.

John T


That would pretty much deal with my only objection (though I still think the defaults are, um, interesting:) ). But I can't work out how to change it.

Ah, you will love this! And I agree the defaults are a bit wacky, but remapping is a big part of ACT and is key to streamlining workflow, IMHO.


First, make sure the VS-700c's Channel Strip Control is in EQ mode and that you have the desired PC module that you want to remap selected and controlled by the VS-700c.

Then, select the VS-700c from the list of available control surfaces in SONAR's Control Bar ACT Module (will show by default if only one control surface connected to SONAR). 

Next, using your mouse in SONAR, click the ACT Learn button in that ACT Module once so that it is blue (this is the button labelled ACT).

Then, also using your mouse in SONAR, move the controls in the PC module in series that you want to map to the VS-700c. You can do one, two, or any number you wish.

Next, move the knobs on the VS-700c in series that you want to control the parameters that you moved in the PC module. 

For example, if you want to map the PC4K Expander/ Gate's knobs from left to right across the top four VS-700c knobs, move those four PC4K knobs first with your mouse and then move the four VS-700c rotaries in series from left to right.

Finally, click the ACT Learn button again in SONAR's Control Bar to take it out of lean mode. You will see a popup window telling you that you remapped x parameters with y controls. Click Yes to confirm the remapping or click No to cancel it and try again.

Now your PC module is remapped, and you can continue to remap controls in that PC module one at a time, or in groups. And the mapping is permanent so that whenever you open that particular module it will always be mapped like that, even after you restart SONAR, your computer, etc.

BTW, this is the same method for remapping plugins and synths, and it works with any ACT controller.

HTH.

SP

Thanks for the personalized walk through instructions - I will no longer be intimidated to do it....

Thanks Seth, that's excellent information. Never thought of doing it that way, I was trying to work out where the equivalent of the plug in window ACT buton would be.

You do realise what you've done though? I was in the Real Users' Complaint Gang briefly, but now I'm back with the Fanbois. Getting picked last for team sports, not invited to the kegger... it's terrible.

John T


Thanks Seth, that's excellent information. Never thought of doing it that way, I was trying to work out where the equivalent of the plug in window ACT buton would be.

Ah, right. Plugins do have an ACT Learn button built-in to their GUI, but PC Modules do not, hence the need to use the global ACT Learn button in the Control Bar. I prefer all of my mappings to match the layout of the module/ plugin (control 1 = Knob 1 from left to right, etc.) so I usually remap to taste. 


I know it can take a bit to remap all of your modules exactly how you want, but once its done, its done. And if you ever screw up a mapping, just remap over it. No harm, no foul.


SP

Don't mind a bit of setup and customisation, just didn't know you could do it. Maybe that's a good FR, actually, a little ACT button as standard on the PC modules.

What I can't figure out is how to clear a knob or button, if I don't want it to do anything at all any more. Any ideas anyone?

Hmm. I've just re-done the mappings, and then closed and re-opened Sonar, and they've reverted to the default mappings. Is there a step I've missed where you explicitly save them?

Hmmm... not just PC modules either, same problem for regular plug-ins. I've obviously got something set up wrong. Any idea what it could be?

John T


Hmmm... not just PC modules either, same problem for regular plug-ins. I've obviously got something set up wrong. Any idea what it could be?

The mappings don't change and save until you complete the process by clicking 'Yes' in the popup window. Without that step the mappings will not take effect.


SP

That's not the problem. Have done that and it works as I've set it for the remainder of that session. But if I close and restart sonar, everything goes back to default. 

I love this thread.!!!!

Also interseted. Waiting for the outcome of this discussion!

Thanks Seth by the way;)

For the record, I got my problem sorted out. Some kind of installation issue, I think, but once I deleted all the files in this folder - C:\Users\*** user name ****\AppData\Roaming\Cakewalk\ACT Data - then Sonar rebuilt all the relevant data and all was well.

Following on from that: now I've got the PC modules mapped how I like them, I'm currently finding the v700 / x1 combination mind blowingly brilliant. I wish v700 updates didn't lag behind general updates the way they have done over the last year, but in fairness, when they've caught up, they've been very impressive.

Thanks for the update John... looking forward to getting back into audio with this update! Cheers...

John T


Following on from that: now I've got the PC modules mapped how I like them, I'm currently finding the v700 / x1 combination mind blowingly brilliant. I wish v700 updates didn't lag behind general updates the way they have done over the last year, but in fairness, when they've caught up, they've been very impressive.

Yeah you're right I'm enjoying the whole system A LOT with X1.


I'd like to say that all this is due to Cakewalk devotion to keep offering update. Not sure about Roland help since they NEVER come around this forum, but a real big THANKS to Cakewalk for doing the best they can to continue to give us the best possible experience.


Not shure I'll stay with Roland forever but Cakewalk just cut the quality/support ratio.  

Great information, thanks to all.  Can't wait to get X1 now!

Just curious.  Once you remap using ACT does it fix the problem with values being displayed on the VS-700 display versus the values in the ProChannel display.  For example (from post #3 in this thread)...

- PC4K S-Type Channel Compressor:  Threshold goes from 0 to -30dB on the PC display, and 0dB to 1.0dB on the VS-700C display.  The Ratio goes from 1.00:1 to Inf:1 on the PC display, and from.0:1 to 1.0:1 on the VS-700C.

I know I can answer this myself by just trying it myself but I'm out of the studio for the week and thought maybe someone who has already tried remapping would know the answer.  If it doesn't change the mapping of the values I'm hoping that Seth or someone can explain how to get the displays to sync up.

Thanks,
Don

Regrettably no. This seems to be something that's built in (or not built in) to the individual modules. For example, the PC4k bus compressor displays the correct values on the v700, but the PC2A Leveller doesn't.

Thanks John.  That's what I suspected.

I sincerely appreciate Seth participating in the thread and explaining how to use ACT to remap the VS-700 controls to something more usable.  Unfortunately I really think that it's pretty obvious that the VS-700 integration with X1d wasn't really ready for prime time.  I can easily understand that they had limited resources and had to apply those resources to the areas of the product where they were most needed.  Clearly VS-700 users make up a very small segment of the total X1 user base and the decision was not too difficult .  We are all (VS=700 users and non-users) benefiting from the release of X1d.

Hopefully Cakewalk will continue to work on improving the integration of the VS-700 and X1.  Both are great products.  If the X1 integration isn't any better with the VS-700 than X1 with any one of a number of cheaper controller alternatives I would think it would hurt sales of the VS-700.  It no longer makes the VS-700 the "ideal" control surface for Sonar.  It would still continue to be a VERY good solution for X1 - but no better regarding level of integration than a generic control surface using ACT.

Right now we are in a much better situation than we would be if we didn't have the strength of ACT to compensate for a lot of the VS-700 integration problems.  Unfortunately it  isn't able to overcome the display problems.  A statement from Seth (or someone else from Cakewalk) acknowledging the problems and providing a vague statement that the problems will be worked on over time would be very comforting.  It wouldn't need to provide specifics (dates, specific bugs being fixed, etc).

John (and anyone else) what are your feelings about what we should do as VS-700 users?  Should we report all of the problems individually?  I really think the Cakewalk development team knows the problems exist.  They are certainly easy enough to find.  So in that respect it is kind of a waste of everyone's time to open problem reports and expect Cakewalk engineers to handle each individual problem until they have really had an opportunity to complete the development and testing of the VS-700 integration.  That obviously hasn't happened yet.  I have worked in engineering development for a couple of decades and to take engineers' time to process the problem reports prior to some level of readiness rather than letting them finish their development/test activities isn't always the best use of their time.  Clearly at some point it is a very worthwhile and necessary process.  I don't think the VS-700 integration is currently ready for Beta (or even Alpha) testing.

Seth - what would you recommend?  Report each and every VS-700 issue - or wait until there is a patch or release that attempts to "complete" the VS-700 integration.

Thanks!
Don

I've been reporting issues with it, yeah. I think "the squeaky wheel gets the grease", so the more reports the better, probably. I am a little disappointed with v700 integration in two ways. Firstly, the way it lags behind updates to the main program is a bit frustrating (eg: we got modular PC in expanded, but the V700 didn't handle it til X1d). And secondly the integration feels a bit like box ticking in places, like with this incorrectly named parameters thing. The promise of tight integration with Sonar was true of 8.5, but for my money, it's never quite caught up in X1.

Thank you very much Seth. I've tried your instructions on Sonar X3e, and it worked like a charm, however, when I try to map for example the 4 options in Pro Channel EQ which are: Hybrid, Pure, E-type and G-type to 4 buttons, it won't do that. It lets me go through the process, then I have the option to click ok. But they don't work as I mapped them. Any ideas? Thanks in advance!