it's better just to embrace the ol' curmudgeon badge and wear it with pride

Oh I do...... I do! ;-)

John Amour

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I can scarcely think of anything duller and less creative than an obsession with "real" instruments. 

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John T


I can scarcely think of anything duller and less creative than an obsession with "real" instruments. 

Define "real".  I wouldn't want you discounting my comb and tissue paper combo without a proper critical listen first.

"If I could sum up what musicians want in one word, it would be 'more.'" - Ernst Nathorst-Böös

They seem to be making out better than I did anyway....

Jonbouy

Sorry.... I missed this. ;-)
Succumbing to popularity and seeking monetary gain ($$$) is not the bottom line for me in creating music..... "making it" due to deceptive practices is dishonesty. Writing music and performing it is a personal satisfaction for me. I care less about making a buck from it..... I'm not in it "for the money". For example, billions of dollars are collected in the illicit drug trade. It doesn't mean that those making the profits are doing the right thing.... it just means that their clients are the uneducated masses. 

John Amour

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I dunno. Plenty of educated people seem to like taking drugs. 

Bit of a dodgy analogy in all sorts of ways, this. 

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Amour013

They seem to be making out better than I did anyway....

Jonbouy

Sorry.... I missed this. ;-)
Succumbing to popularity and seeking monetary gain ($$$) is not the bottom line for me in creating music..... "making it" due to deceptive practices is dishonesty. Writing music and performing it is a personal satisfaction for me. I care less about making a buck from it..... I'm not in it "for the money". For example, billions of dollars are collected in the illicit drug trade. It doesn't mean that those making the profits are doing the right thing.... it just means that their clients are the uneducated masses. 

Very noble.

I was referring to the general idea of kids having evolved some since when I was one.  Well mine are streets ahead of me at least in many, many ways.

It's breathtaking really.

"If I could sum up what musicians want in one word, it would be 'more.'" - Ernst Nathorst-Böös

....how did drug trade get into this.....?? 

The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate.

Bushpianos

Well, I think someone found themselves comparing urban and mainly black musical artists to criminals. Bit crass I thought. 

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John T


I can scarcely think of anything duller and less creative than an obsession with "real" instruments. 

This I just can't agree with. It goes against any sensibility. Creativity belongs to the creator and not the instrument.  What I think Amour013 is getting at is the fact that much(most) of Hip Hop is based around loops and sampling music that already exists. One might take this as riding on the coat tails of someone elses talent, which it is to an extent. There are artists out there than manage to legitimize their art by using a real band but that is a small exception.
 
The same thing with much of Dance music. I would not pay to watch a guy "spin" records. He's really not spinning anything is he? He's just dropping a needle and pressing play, for the most part at least. I know that there are some "DJs" who are much more than that and that actually play keys and samples via an MPC type controller. But again, these are the exception.  Most DJ's don't do much more than press play. I wouldn't pay to be in their presence.  That's like going to an art museum to look at paint by numbers paintings.
 
It all comes down to what you value more, Norman Rockwell or the kid next door who got a new set of crayons and a Spider Man colouring book. Sure the kid might be great at colouring and hey, there is even work for skilled colourists but do you value him as you would Mr. Rockwell? I wouldn't.
 
Now, I'm not saying that all Hip Hop is bad. I don't beleive that. I'm just saying that I would appreciate a rapper with a live band more than a rapper with a guy pressing play.

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What in earth does "goes against any sensibility" even mean? 

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John T


I dunno. Plenty of educated people seem to like taking drugs. 

Being exposed to an education.... and actually getting educated are entirely two different things. Your analogy is even more distorted...... it's as if those who are "educated" are justified in their choice that they "like" to poison themselves.

Let's discuss music.....  LOL!

John Amour

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I mean, what if someone's sensibility is attuned towards music made in non traditional instruments? 

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Well, I didn't bring up drug use. But the argument is a hopeless one. What are we saying here? That Thomas de Quincey: ignoramus. Coleridge? Thicko. I mean come on. 

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John T


What in earth does "goes against any sensibility" even mean? 

So, you choose to focus on one sentance than direct your attention to anything else I said?
 
Dictionary.com:
 
    Sensibility:   keen consciousness or appreciation.
 
Maybe poorly chosen phrase but I stand by my intention. (the end or object intended; purpose. )
 
 
This thread is incredibly off topic.

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I love that "I wouldn't pay to be in a dj's presence" thing. You must have some smokin' nights out. 

I don't think I'm proposing anything too radical to suggest that going to a place where records get played for the purposes of entertainment is, you know, fun, and that the people who are involved in making such events happen might reasonably expect to get paid for their time and effort. 

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I think I still don't understand what your intention was, in that case. 

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John T


Well, I think someone found themselves comparing urban and mainly black musical artists to criminals. Bit crass I thought. 

Your assumption is entirely wrong regarding this....... if in fact that someone was me.
It appears that it's you who is stereotyping and compartmentalizing individuals....  not me. You have no idea if I'm white, brown, black or green. You have no idea what neighborhoods I'm exposed to. You have no idea if I associate with criminals or not. So, please.... don't jump to these harsh conclusions. If anything here has been crass..... it's been your own reply.

PEACE

John Amour

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I'm kind of thinking about what 'non-traditional' would mean in this sense...

I think back to when I bought my Arp2600 in 1973...eeek!! was it that long ago??...and how I was looked at by some as someone who was going to steal the 'real' musician's jobs away from them..never mind that I was only 18 at the time and was in a group that tended towards more Guru Guru related freakouts.... There was a lot of strange tinfoil hat things going around then...


Now, we have people like Christian Marklay doing things like his music for 100 turntables thing...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yqM3dAqTzs or cross cultural non traditional things...

The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate.

Bushpianos

Hip hop is everywhere , it goes from Madonna , to black eyes pies , from M.I.A to Taylor the creator , impacted and still all the arts , impacted designners , dance, clothes , ect ....

Speak with any REAL ingeeners and you will see that one of the most reponsible genre of music that made mixing reach new limits , that make mixing go out of known limits ...is hip hop ...

A lot of styles have developped traditions in mixings (jazz , big band, country ect ...) and you have to fallow strict rules to make a mix considered like good ....but hip hop give the engineer an unlimited margin ...that's why it was a fresh air for the engineers .... and the fact that people that makes hip hop are everybody , engineers have to deal with an infinite type of mixing possibilities ....

To the OP , like in all kinda stuff :

1) Listen
2) Reproduce
3) Developpe
4) Create 

Have fun ....

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Well, I can go t a club and pay a cover fee or buy the minimum drink and hear music. I can stay home and listen to music. I can wear headphones and walk around town listening to music. I will not pay to see some dude with a bad haircut dropping needles the same amount that I would pay to see a band perform their songs or a DJ performing songs for that matter. If I pay for a performance, I expect to see one. I don't know. Maybe I'm way off here but I expect an artist to earn his living the same way anyone else would.

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Yeah, it does always somewhat amuse me, this blinking in befuddlement at these lumpen supposedly new forms of music. I've got an LP by a guy called Lightnin' Rod from 1971, which is basically prototype gangster rap. 

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Level of difficulty does NOT define music desirability, ability, or quality.

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hueseph


Well, I can go t a club and pay a cover fee or buy the minimum drink and hear music. I can stay home and listen to music. I can wear headphones and walk around town listening to music. I will not pay to see some dude with a bad haircut dropping needles the same amount that I would pay to see a band perform their songs or a DJ performing songs for that matter. If I pay for a performance, I expect to see one. I don't know. Maybe I'm way off here but I expect an artist to earn his living the same way anyone else would.

i'm totally agree with you ...but this is not hip hop this is some artists /studio rappers ...not mc's....i never seens so wak scenes as in USA ....the first country where i hear  artists singing on their instrumental + lyrics lol ....

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I personally don't much care about the "how" of things, I'm interested in the end result. If something is interesting to listen to, then it's interesting to listen to, whether I think it was hard or easy to achieve. Conversely, if something isn't, then all the blood, sweat, tears and "real musicianship" in the world won't make it so. The trouble with the real musician argument is that it logically ends up suggesting that some dullard twanging out hack cliches on a guitar is intrinsically more exciting and interesting than The Prodigy. Which is self evident nonsense, whatever people's personal tastes might be. 

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Oh yeah and those who are judging hip hop , base their thought on the crap they hear the radios ...
if i will judge pop according to what i'm hearing , it's gonna be super deep ....same for rock ect .....

it's like assimilating latina music to reggaeton (this is what's on radio there) !

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Yeah, indeed. You can do that with any genre. I remember when I was a teenager, the only rock music that made it onto the radio was the really ghastly poodle rock stuff. You could quite easily make the lazy assumption that guitar music was, therefore, rubbish. 

Musicians - actually I prefer to say "instrument players", which I think is a slightly different thing - are often culturally incurious in this way, I find. 

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my point is only....the ear of the beholder desides what is pleasurable

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twisted6s


Level of difficulty does NOT define music desirability, ability, or quality.

Roger that!

Nor does genre for me, I just grab what grabs me. 

Genres just confuse me and music never quite fits into a particular pigeon hole that somebody would like to put it in. 

That's one of the good things about music, it doesn't need the boundaries that people usually like to use to highlight differences.

If a song needs a rap, then rap on it, if it needs a shred then shred on it, if it needs a loop then cut'n'paste, it's all just choices from a limitless palette.

To state that hip hop is monotonous is no more true than saying jazz is just noise, some jazz is just noise just as some hip hop is boring. Either thing if it is the good stuff is mind-blowing.  Mediocrity is always mediocre it has nothing to do with genre.

"If I could sum up what musicians want in one word, it would be 'more.'" - Ernst Nathorst-Böös

I personally have no use for Hip Hop, but how can people be so shallow as to dismiss it entirely and not respect others who like it? Everyone wants their freedom of speech, but they want to squash their neighbor's freedom of speech. Its always all about them, just like with politics and religion. Its absolutely disgusting what many people are. Some of you are so very shallow, so close minded, and generally just sad human beings. This forum and the world would be a better place without people who cannot be tolerant of others. Unfortunately this forum seems to protect a lot of close-minded thinking. Why do I come here again?

Has any one watched live versions of the "Prodigy-Breathe"?? 

Hilairious...where the studio version is incredible,when its done live,its amazing in its non-musicality.

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