Helpful ReplyUgh. Really?

Just spent 3 hours working on a project, saving every 10-15 min.  Inserted Sonitus Compressor on Master bus.  Clicked slider on soundcard output.  Crash!!  Option - "do you want sonar to save a recovery copy of your work?".  Answer - YES.  Reopen sonar. Project Folder empty.  Project Audio Folder empty.  Un-frickin-believable.  Totally unacceptable.  Searched for files edited today.  Nothing but sonar pic cache files...  Seriously??

if you saved every 10 to 15 minutes then you should at least have the last saved version on your hard drive in the project folder even if the sonar crash-save didn't work.

pic cache files are not saved in the same place that project files are saved.   are you sure you're looking in the right place?

I've recently enabled auto save. With systems as powerful as they are today autosave cannot/should not be a concern.

I daren't do that Bapu. I do a lot of trial & error stuff and I'm forever ripping out tracks wholesale. It would be just my luck for autosave to kick in just as I did something I wish I hadn't.

But I do save regularly and often do a save-as and increment the project name.

I have my left-hand permanently perched over the CTRL+S keys to save frequently -- basically as often as I feel it would be painful for me to have to recreate what I might lose.

But in order to try and help swamptooth given the situation at hand...

Have you tried looking in the default audio folder (not the project audio folder) to see if there are any audio files there?  It's unlikely, but I'm sure that when I have imported stuff into a new project that's not yet been saved, that those imported files seem to end up first in that default "global" audio folder.  Maybe by some stroke of luck yours were auto-saved there.  It's worth a look...

John this has happened to me in Sonar before and I feel his pain. The trick is to do what you say of course and save every 10 to 15 minutes but if there is a problem or crash and Sonar asks you "do you want sonar to save a recovery copy of your work?" the correct answer should be NO. Then Sonar won't do anything and you will still have all your work at least 10 to 15 minutes back from where you last saved. I have found from experience that you may not be able to trust what Sonar is going to save in this situation as it is possible to save nothing and remove everything in the process.

I would be intersted to know what in fact Sonar would be saving in this case.

Great tip Jeff. 

The only time I ever had any success with saying 'Yes' was way back in version 6.2.1

I think something got broke after that. But like you, I now always say NO and accept that I have to go back a bit.

@Peter - yeah I do the same thing... ctrl+s all the damned time. @jeff - sorry you've been through this too.  i mean wtf though a recovery copy should be a recovery copy it shouldn't wipe out the existing files.  smh.

@beagle - yeah cakewalk projects.  and did windows explorer search for date modified.  nothing today except the file folders they were in.  and windows search on entire drive.  nothing.

swamptooth


@beagle - yeah cakewalk projects.  and did windows explorer search for date modified.  nothing today except the file folders they were in.  and windows search on entire drive.  nothing.

For what it's worth...   I dont trust Windows Search tool.  I've had it look in folders for files that I can see are there and have witnessed many times an empty result list.  Not since WinXP have I seen Windows Search to be reliable (and I've checked all the special options for it to check the file types and locations I want it to index).  


I know this is grasping at straws but did you actually go to the specific global/default folder for projects and/or audio?  If you did indeed do any save (or an auto-save occurred) then I have to believe it's somewhere.  Unless it really dd get wiped out from a saved state, which seems unlikely (and scary).

Hi Folks, 

Since I've been hanging around a bit today, I'd like to share something I often share with others. 

I hate dealing with losing any type of data (be it with SONAR or any other program) so I'm personally pretty meticulous about backing up my data and using versioning features when available. Below is something I like to share with everyone just in case you ever are dealing with a project or file that is corrupted:

For starters, always keep a backup of your project on a different hard drive. If your hard drive fails, you will want to be able to recover your files from a second internal hard drive or from an external hard drive. Even if your hard drive is a high performance, high quality and very expensive hard drive, do not make the mistake of trusting that it will never fail. It might, and if it does you will regret not having a backup.

Secondly, I STRONGLY suggest taking advantage of SONAR's auto-save and versioning features found under Edit > Preferences > File - Advanced. I cannot recommend keeping versions of files enough, for any application. With applications that do not do this automatically, I manually create versions after every so many revisions. For example, I keep an Excel spreadsheet with a lot of data that I have lost in the past due to file corruption. Now, with my Excel spreadsheet, I create a new version every two weeks and add the time and/or date to the end of the file. For example:

My Finances 7_21_2011.xlsx
My Finances 8_14_2011.xlsx

SONAR's versioning feature will handle this for you. Essentially this keeps versions of your project file so that should your latest project become corrupted, you can revert back to the previous version. You might still lose a little bit of work, but it is better to lose 10 mins or an hour of work opposed to the entire project. Ultimately you'll want to decide on the number of versions you would like to keep. If you choose "10" for example, it will only maintain the 10 most recent revisions. It will automatically name the files with the timestamp of previous versions. For example:

My project.cwp (this is your most recent project that will be referenced by SONAR and will open to your most recent changes)
My project.cwp.~2011-10-03-12-17-49-385 (this is a project that was saved on 10/3/2011 at 12:17 PM)
My project.cwp.~2011-10-02-12-10-39-373 (this is a project that was saved on 10/2/2011 at 12:10 PM)

If I ever needed to revert back to the previous project, I can just remove the "~2011-10-03-12-17-49-385" of my first revision. This can also be done from File > Revert. The nice part about this is that the project files themselves are small, so it is not like it is creating a version of all the audio files and taking up lots of hard drive space. The space taken up is minimal.

I hope this helps!

Have you tried the revert menu (under File 3rd down) to see if there is any data somewhere.  Open what ever there is of the file and Click on the revert and select the most recent revision.

If all the files have been deleted, they will have been removed from the master file table, not actually deleted from your hard drive. Don't use the harddrive at all, download some free recovery software, and have a look. The files should still (unless something has been written over them) be on the drive.

I don't see why you shouldn't be able to recover some, or all of your files this way.

At the end of the day though, ALWAYS BACKUP YOUR PROJECTS!!!! Hard drive crashes can occur without warning and you never know.

So here's the thing... the project doesn't even show up in the file menu under recent files... why? because IT DOES NOT EXIST. And, yes, I back up my work every day to an external hard drive at night.  

@ryan - I use autosave and versioning on many projects.  Problem is it crashes sonar sometimes when i am scrubbing or playing back a file and autosave tries to run.  So I guess when I want to play a section i can go into preferences and turn off autosave and versioning and then 30 seconds later turn it back on and then a few minutes after that turn it off again and so on... 

;)

Trying file recovery program now.  Will keep you posted.

If SONAR crashes, my recent project files never show up on the recent list.

This is normal. I simply have to go to file - open and point to the folder in which the project was saved before and it is always there.

Lance

LOL.  Apparently Sonar isn't saving anything at all.  

@lance - not there.  even turned off hide files options in windows.  Nothing. nada. zip.

hmmm.... Very interesting. I would like to get my hands on your computer-

Are you able to go to where your projects are saved and see the project file of other projects?

Lance

This may sound silly but if the files were deleted (even by Sonar) they should be in the Recycle Bin of Windows. You might want to check there just to make sure.

Feel your pain though...hope it works out for you.

Regards,

oh yeah... all the other project files are there.  file recovery yielded nothing which is just totally bizarre...  all the pic cache icons are still there... 

a bit of a disclaimer, i'm a systems engineer.

yeah... all three file recovery programs... NOTHING.  LOL.   Wish I could attach screenshots so you guys could see.  :)

What a trip man!

I haven't had this happen in the 8 years plus of SONAR since Sonar 2 XL.

Sorry for the mishap!

Lance

I have Sonar set to auto-save every 60 seconds.

Keep in mind, auto-save does not kick in while you are playing a project or recording.

I have never seen the files erased. You have a project folder with the CWP icon and the audio folder. every signal thing you record is in there, even stuff your not using. Only dumb thing ( i find) is MIDI is not there and is hidden with in the CWP file. If the program crashes it would not erase anything. Those audio files are there somewhere. Either that or your hard drive screwed up.

sorry for your problems, but stating you are a system engineer (I am also, among other  such certs, retired though) then you must realize the files have to be on your hard drive (or as stated by someone else your HD is at fault). CW cannot perform magic and seek out and destroy every file related to the project that you saved "multiple times" very strange. Not saying you are making this up, just seems "strange"
Don't you agree?

johnnyV


I have never seen the files erased. You have a project folder with the CWP icon and the audio folder. every signal thing you record is in there, even stuff your not using. Only dumb thing ( i find) is MIDI is not there and is hidden with in the CWP file. If the program crashes it would not erase anything. Those audio files are there somewhere. Either that or your hard drive screwed up.

Exactly +1

When Sonar locks up, you usually have to reboot. What probably happened was, he rebooted before the file was written. I doubt the file would have worked anyway. Every time I've had it try to save a project, the resulting file was corrupted beyond being able to be opened.

nope didnt have to reboot. the project folders are there and like i said before the icons are in the picture cache.  not a win systems engineer. databases mostly but i do understand windows file structures and how to find the prohect folders.  the file folders are still there but no project or aufio files.  also have the sonar crash dump file. damndest thing ive ever seen. and when i have  autosave turned on it does kick in during playback.  that was with x1c  haven't tried with x1d.  it can be laame when trying to play live.if it was a hard drive failure i would have expected more corruption or instability when i scanned the disk but nothing else was wonky.

yeah no .cwp file either. vanished. just the project folders. and i had closed sonar at one point and reopened it and the project file. recovery file - none. jeff evans you said the same thing has happened to you is it pretty much exactly like this?

Bristol_Jonesey


I daren't do that Bapu. I do a lot of trial & error stuff and I'm forever ripping out tracks wholesale. It would be just my luck for autosave to kick in just as I did something I wish I hadn't.

But I do save regularly and often do a save-as and increment the project name.

Hi Colin just FYI, autosave doesn't overwrite your original file it creates a copy called "Autosave of......project name" so even if autosave has saved something you don't want it doesn't matter to your original file which isn't saved until you press Ctrl+S as normal. Think of it as having two versions of the same project at the same time. They may or may not be identical depending on whether you have pressed save or not.

I'm a big user of autosave but since X1 I have noticed that if my system does an anutosave at the same time I change screensets nine times out of ten I get a dropout. Not the end of the world but annoying. I'd still rather have that than no autosave or screensets though.

Thanks Karl.

That's a big help and certainly worth bearing in mind, now that I no longer have to worry about disc space.

More info needed:

Did you create a new project and name it, with folder option?
   If so, the folder is created immediately.

Or did you open a template and start work?
  If this way, then the saved project will be saved with the template name. And in the template folder.

If the folder and the named project are gone I would immediatelly backup the disk, as is, to a new location, and then run a thorough disk scan. And then use a manufacturers utility to test the disk.

@jm - yeah as stated previously the project folder was created and the project file was in it and all associated audio files in the project audio folder when i closed sonar and reopened it.  ran surface scans overnight no errors.  ran file recovery scans yesterday (surface scans as well) the files weren't anywhere to be found. the project folder is still there just totally empty.  bizarre.

Check under Preferences to see where your default Project Files are set up for.  On installation it may have set it up to C:\Cakewalk Content, which is the normal default location, so if your normal project files are going to a different drive than C: you may be searching the wrong disk to find them.   This is a long shot but may be worth checking.

Wierd you can't find the project or that it's blank.

In Preferences>File>Folder Locations in the Project files field, there is a directory path listed,  that location listed is the place where you should be looking for your project files? And if you don't find your project there, that is totally wierd.

Nope just totally disappeared.  I've learned through the years to mess with default file paths of any programs because sometimes program updates or patches don't take into account that users may change them. ;)  Anyway disk scan no errors. File recovery scan yielded no files (using three different utilities).  It looks like when sonar attempted to save a recovery copy of the work that it inadvertently wiped out file locations from the partition or some such...  so i will defer to an earlier piece of advice and click on no if sonar ever crashes again and asks if i'd like it to save a recovery copy of the project.  seems like the easiest answer at this point.  i'll try to recreate the error this weekend.  thanks everybody.  will email tech support to see if they want to take a look at the dump file.

here are pics of all the project folder locations plus a windows search for files containing the prefix "mecha" which was the beginning of the project name...

http://renaldothedestroyer.blogspot.com/2012/04/pics-of-files-for-sonar-project-that.html

swamptooth


Nope just totally disappeared.  I've learned through the years to mess with default file paths of any programs because sometimes program updates or patches don't take into account that users may change them. ;)  Anyway disk scan no errors. File recovery scan yielded no files (using three different utilities).  It looks like when sonar attempted to save a recovery copy of the work that it inadvertently wiped out file locations from the partition or some such...  so i will defer to an earlier piece of advice and click on no if sonar ever crashes again and asks if i'd like it to save a recovery copy of the project.  seems like the easiest answer at this point.  i'll try to recreate the error this weekend.  thanks everybody.  will email tech support to see if they want to take a look at the dump file.

 
DANG Dude! You're a glutton for punishment! :)
 
I'd suggest not trying to repo the error and leave well enough alone. When there is a crash, anything can happen.  The last thing you want to do is give a rouge program access to the HD.
 
Just to let you know, I have had the same thing happen using Sonar 8.5. Same results as you.  Had to restore from a backup copy on a different drive.
 
Always click "NO" at that prompt in the future.
 
And I go one further.  When closing out an app when I've forgotten to save before closing (rarely happens) I click CANCEL and return to the app to save.
I have never lost work doing this.
 
CTRL+S is also your friend and frequent backups.
 
 

Not really a glutton for punishment but if it's a bug I want to be able to recreate it and maybe give the CW engineers something to fix...  I mean if it was the process of inserting the soncomp then clicking a certain place in the audio mains it's a bug and should be dealt with right?  Just trying to make a contribution! :)

This thread certainly has been instructive. While I have not experienced losing work as described, if I had then I would have answered Yes to the prompt, "do you want SONAR to save a recovery copy of your work?". Perhaps that prompt could be improved?

I had this dissapearing Project data happen in Sonar 8.5 after crashes.
I would lose everything as well, even though Sonar had been Autosaving.
The problem could be replicated.
 
Solution was:
    Name and start the project,
    CLOSE the project after the first AUTOSAVE or MANUAL SAVE.
    OPEN the project again and it would be fine after a crash.
 
 
 
Anyhow, I found that the Project was always recovered if I had CLOSED the PROJECT at least once.
I would lose the data if I hadn't CLOSED the Project and had a crash on my original session.
   
I think that the FAST TRACK ULTRA could be the cause of some of my crashes. http://www.kvraudio.com/f...iewtopic.php?p=4897140 current kvr thread on Fast Track Ultra

what bothers me about this is:  I've had crashes like this before and nothing like this happened, and I've also done some dimwitted things like allowing my assistant to turn the power strip off where the computer was plugged in during a remote session before I saved the project.

In all case, however, all audio is always saved.  the reason audio is always saved is because it doesn't require you to hit the save button (or FILE>SAVE for X1) in order for it to be printed on the hard drive.

any time you're recording audio the audio gets streamed directly to the hard drive and placed in the AUDIO folder immediately.  there's no way around that.  there's no where in memory for a wave file that large to ever exist, so it has to be saved to the hard drive AS you are recording it.

So if the audio itself is missing from the Audio folder then something really screwy must have happened which shouldn't have ever happened in a scenerio like this, OR the user did something to cause it to be deleted.

swamptooth - you show the audio folder in your pics, but you don't show what's actually in that folder.  are there any wave files in there? 

Also, if you'll notice in the preferences, under FILE click on AUDIO DATA and where do you have the GLOBAL AUDIO FOLDER set up to be?  look in THERE for your wave files.  If you have a different drive location than C for the global audio folder then that would be a reason you can't find them by searching C drive.  

and the files should start with the name of your project ONLY if you saved the project before the crash (which you said you did several times).  they will have names like:  mechalazy, vocals 1, mix (102).wave etc.  IF you saved the project at all.  if you did not, sonar will create a name for it, but I don't remember the nomenclature for the default files, it might be "normal..." or something like that.

+1 for auto save. Also, the recovery file renames itself '...recovery..' so it won't save over your normal save file. Supposed to be in your project file folder but may've been saved to somewhere else. I've run into a rare occasion though where nothing saves even with auto save on. It was in a recovery situation. Rare though. I keep 4 auto save versions, Back up to separate hard drive nightly. Also, before opening a Cake file, I usually copy it then rename the task at hand for that project. Then open it and work and auto-save. Then, no matter where I screw it up, or Sonar screws it up, I have various Copies and auto-save copies and back up copies. Then there's the 8.53 copies to do tuning and timing adjustments with (whilst the timecode plugin fast bounce is DEAD). Like was stated above, auto save won't interrupt the Real important stuff like recording.

hey beagle... thats why i posted a pic of the  picture cache file.  the pic cache stores images of the waveforms that are displayed in the sonar project with the name of the associated audio file.  pic cache shows those audio files did exist but they dont any longer.  give it a try. open a new project drag in a wav file bounce the wav file to a clip and then open the pic cache folder to see how it works.

yeah so  the trick is don't double click anywhere outside of your soundcard output meter in the mixing console. crashes sonar.  didn't get the file deletion to replicate though.  that one is still buggering me.