Helpful ReplyWith Feathers - Julibee (Folktronica?)

I've been working on this for several weeks, I and THINK I've gotten the mix where I want it.  Seemed like SUCH a good idea to have a full-on Julianna Choir at the time.... Hard to tame that beast.  Yikes.
 
Anyway.  I've never been very comfortable with my mixing skills, namely that I've never really EQ'd anything, because I simply didn't know what needed it and/or how to get it to sound as I wanted it.  I found THIS GUIDE to mixing (electronica specific) the other day, and clickety-click, stuff started making sense.
 
So this song is what I was working on when I started reading.
 
I didn't mix it traditionally, nor do I want to - but I do want to know what some of my more traditional friends think, and from that standpoint how I might improve it. 
 
There are lots of loops here (I made them, though - they aren't pulled from some CD or downloaded) which you may or may not appreciate. 
 
Lyrics available at SoundCloud.  Lyrics, Music, Production - Me.
 
With Feathers on Soundcloud

Very nice Julibee. I like this a lot. Listening on crappy computer speakers will listen again in the studio later

I wouldn't worry too much about your mixing skills or lack of knowledge about EQ.  This sounds as professional as any mix I've heard here, so far.  Everything sounds clear, clean, full, and organic.  I didn't find myself wanting to hear more or less of anything, it was all there.  You're obviously a good enough engineer to get a good vocal sound, which vexes many engineers.  Oh, it helps to have a great voice and performance.  I like the way you approached this by thinking outside the box, so to speak.  This song deserves to be heard, and I wish you the best of luck.

Am I a traditional friend?

The music sounds good. The vox seem a bit "behind" the mix and a tad muffled/muted. Listening on my good Sennheisers. Maybe it's just a taste thang?

Keep on mixing gurl.

And thanks again for the Bapsi avatar.  

Beautiful sound Jules.   I disagree with Bapsi about the vox, but switch the comment to the drums.  They could do with a little more hi/mid punch.

Very professional production.

cool stuff Jules!  

I'm gonna agree and disagree with Karyn AND bapu! I'd like to hear the vocals a little louder in the mix, a little less processing/verb and more clarity (did you EQ the vox?  they sound bandlimited).  But I'd also like to hear more punch in the drums, they're distant and boomy instead of clear and punchy.

the rest sounds pretty good.  nice ambient sounds with a good backbeat. 

I like this a lot.

Very original, I've got not crits at all, yeah there scope in there to change the emphasis of this or that but it's all working.   I love that rhytmic guitar chopping sound that it all hangs off with the piano providing the melodic counter to that and the lyrics fit the mood nicely.

The vox we're evoking some Sonja Kristina especially during the chorus which was infusing the Folktronica vibe with a faint whiff of Patchouli.  Yep it was definitely bringing up an outdoor festival vibe and I could hear this wafting over a Somerset landscape with strobes lighting up a summer solstice night.

I'm there already.

Thanks, Daryl!  You, too, Lynn! 
Bapu, you Am, you Am.  And I adore you for it.


Karyn, I damn near sent this one to you as well, but decided I needed something to practice on and it was the only thing I had going.  Little more mids, eh?  I'll give it a go.

Beags, Did I EQ the vox?  ummmm.... Oh sweet Betsy, I can't remember.  I'm sure I did though, yes.  I did.  But I didn't band limit them on purpose (one would have to do that on purpose, right? Hahahaha!).... You know, in my car a few minutes ago,  the vox effect was too much.  Not on three sets of ear phones/bud or my monitors, but in the dang car.  So. Might pull it back a hair. Chorus mostly.

Jon, thank you! It's so funny how every time I post a new song, someone mentions an artist I've never heard of, and I end up loving them (Last time it was Curve, and by all rights I damn well should have known them.  I was a college DJ at the time, and they MUST have been in the rotation....) I've never heard of Sonja Kristina, but I've some patchouli handy for that theoretical show.  I'll be there with bells on. :)

was it your last one or one of Lynn's or Karyn's which had a similar vibe? kinda Kylie Minogue in her ambient/trance period. FWIW this mix is pretty damn good Julianna. Someone like Cryophonik would give you much bolder drums (and they do need to come out a little bit), at least one breakdown and maybe another synth lead line in there somewhere as the songs gathers momentum; currently it's a little one-paced/lacking dynamics. of course, a great vocal performance, that goes without saying!

My only observations are, the vocal feels/sounds a little detached from the rest like its in a different place and the drum could do with some middle snap. 

But hey what do I know?

Thanks for sharing

Wookiee


My only observations are, the vocal feels/sounds a little detached from the rest like its in a different place and the drum could do with some middle snap. 

But hey what do I know?

Thanks for sharing

Wook, you know LOTS.  :) thanks, buddy.


Mike, I think you may have heard my last one, "Wide Awake and Dreaming" as mixed by Karyn... So that would make sense.  ;) I'm thinking cutting a bit from the final chorus repetitions.... It's too long and didn't go as far as I thought it would in terms of impact.  So, likely some trimming at the very least.  Hoping cryo will chime in with some ideas.  Wish Blipp were here. :(

I always like your songs and this is no exception.  I agree that the vocals could be a little more present.  You might cut back on the reverb.  I keep forcing myself to use the minimum reverb I can, and the go a little less than that.  I like the reverb, but I think it would be clearer if is was little less wet.

Very nice.

Daryl

This is my favorite of yours so far...  I'm hearing a seemingly newfound maturity in your productions... more confidence maybe... you are very talented and it shows here...

Yeah, what Frank said....you're just way out there, girl.  Fantastic!  

I tend to agree with those that would like to hear the choir a little more up front. 

LOVE that beat!!!!  You go girl!  This really rawks!  :)  

Beagle


cool stuff Jules!  

I'm gonna agree and disagree with Karyn AND bapu! I'd like to hear the vocals a little louder in the mix, a little less processing/verb and more clarity (did you EQ the vox?  they sound bandlimited).  But I'd also like to hear more punch in the drums, they're distant and boomy instead of clear and punchy.

the rest sounds pretty good.  nice ambient sounds with a good backbeat. 

+1


Thats what I was going to suggest as well. Thanks for saving me the trouble Beag. Not all the effects though. Some are great.

Mmm, listening more, I am not a big fan of the harmony. The lower harmony in particular (and again not all, just in parts). 

I am proud of you for the continuing reduction in vibrato in your vocals. If you could hear them as I do, you would hear how dramatically more pleasing the vox are when vibrato is used sparingly like you did here. There is so much more confidence expressed in the vox in this song too. 

Kudos. I think I have to rate you "most improved" since I have been hanging around here.

This could go in so many directions.
Personally, I like the vox bathed in verb/delay vs the relatively dry instruments.
You have some wonderful textures going on here.
How do you feel about this piece? Is it true to your vision?

It's so good, I liked it! :)

The only thing I noticed that I think would help with what others have mentioned is, the low/mid range is a bit muddy when I listen to it on my headphones. I think if you brought that area down on the EQ, everything else would brighten up a bit ... maybe? It's a really good mix.

Great song, great performance, great vocals, great mix.

Thanks,

Bub. :)

Pardon my lateness in replying... Art Show today... Lots to prepare for last night and most of the day, today.  I need to catch up on my listening, as well...

Fox! THANK YOU for pointing those things out...  I hear two things with your comments in mind; the echo tracks on the chorus (I think) got nudged out of place, and the low harmony is farther out front than I intended in a few places.  Sliding the echo back a hair might also clean up some muddiness.
Daryl, yeah... Rule of thumb... Pull your fx back to where you want it, then pull it back a little more.  :)

Oh, Frank.... Thank you.  I couldn't hear that from a more respected forum friend.

Thank you, Janet!  I've been enjoying my drum machines.  :)

Bub, I think I am going to work on that a bit more... And probably cut one or two of the last chorus repeats.  It's too long...

Robert---- wow, you made me stop to think.  IS this how I want it to sound?
It's funny how we get so wrapped up in doing one thing that we can lose sight of another.   But, I think the answer is mostly a "Yeah"-- I DO want a sort of slightly buried, veiled, echo vox, boomy drums with a little punch, prominent bass line--- I want the vox in this sort of song to almost be just another instrument, rather than the always being the highlight, but I don't you to struggle too much to pick out the lyrics, either.  A fine line....  There is a certain amount of muddiness that I LIKE, in fact. One of my favorite influences is Mazzy Star and that whole Indie era, really.  I want that mixed in with Trip Hop and ambient.  So YEAH!  It mostly IS!  Thanks for showing me that. :)

I like it!
Your voice in this one reminds me of someone... I can't think of who, though. I'm sure it will come to me just when I'm about to fall asleep.

Sorry if that happens, Greg! :D

Wouldn't change a single thing. Perfect.

I WIN!!!! YAY!!!!

Thanks, James! :):):)

I like it as it is, for me the vocal treatment works perfectly. It's an unusual mix, but it works just fine. The vocals are really another instrument here, rather than being outfront and 'singing the song' - it's the atmosphere that counts. Really good stuff.

Julianna, this is really nice! Your vocal control has come a LONG way.  I wouldn't know what to change either.   Music and thingys fit nicely and kept me listening!!! 

Aww... See?  James1213 understands me.  Either that, or he's just readcomments to Robert, and is very Gentlemanly.... ;) Either way.... thanks, James.

Warren!  I was going to pm Fox about this, but you've brought it up as well. So I'll just say it here.... The vox control thing... I've learned to embrace the breathy.  For the longest time, I couldn't shake the "training", and admittedly, I was not the best opera singer out there.  But, I had power.... So that's what I knew to use.  Even when flat.  :)

In fact, I'm barely singing, in comparison.

It means that I had to get used to a whole new sound, and remember some of my favorite ambient artists.  Lately, I've been singing very lightly (not so much "control" as a severe backing off, although that's arguably the same thing).  It means not showing off unless absolutely called for.  It means being happy with the song and not the vocal acrobatics.  It's very different.  

I may still not be suited to rock or blues (signing with power on those things still puts me back in the scary zone), but I can do this.  :)

Thanks, bud. 

julibee


Aww... See?  James1213 understands me.  Either that, or he's just readcomments to Robert, and is very Gentlemanly.... ;) Either way.... thanks, James.

I honestly didn't read the thread before I posted. I've had the same conversation with a couple of people about the lead electric guitar in SMB's stuff..sometimes it's part of the whole, rather than standing in the spotlight.

Cool tune Julibee. I like all the effects.

julibee


I WIN!!!! YAY!!!!

Thanks, James! :):):)

Ha! Exactly what I was thinking.   You certainly did win with this one.  Way to go!  :)

Stevie Nicks. A little bit.
Here and there, but not everywhere.

I disagree with Greg.  I hear a little Annie Haslam(Renaisance) in this song.  It sounds great.  

nice job.... 

lots of good comments to sort through and decide what.... if anything (according to James) you would want to do .....

I'm on some cheap computer speakers at the moment.... and it sounds pretty good... maybe later I'll get on the lappy and use cans and have a second listen. 

If this was dance, I'd say the beat needed to be more forceful..... but what did you call it?  Folk electronica?   So the voice that's a bit behind the music and verbed and the not quite as punchy beat...... might work fine in this. 

julibee
 

Robert---- wow, you made me stop to think.  IS this how I want it to sound?
It's funny how we get so wrapped up in doing one thing that we can lose sight of another.   But, I think the answer is mostly a "Yeah"-- I DO want a sort of slightly buried, veiled, echo vox, boomy drums with a little punch, prominent bass line--- I want the vox in this sort of song to almost be just another instrument, rather than the always being the highlight, but I don't you to struggle too much to pick out the lyrics, either.  A fine line....  There is a certain amount of muddiness that I LIKE, in fact. One of my favorite influences is Mazzy Star and that whole Indie era, really.  I want that mixed in with Trip Hop and ambient.  So YEAH!  It mostly IS!  Thanks for showing me that. :)

Cool. I'm glad you feel that way about this.
I agree with James above, and would not be inclined to change a thing. As it stands, this picks you up and carries you with it.
And its a very enjoyable ride.
You could make some changes, but I think it would change the vibe, and take it in any number of directions.
I really like where this goes, and would have a hard time suggesting any changes.

Very nice Julibee.  No crits from me, I think this is very well mixed.  I like the vocals and the vocal treatment a lot.  Pretty cool song.

Hey Julianna
You really keep me guessing when it comes to your vibes.  Some days I hear "Madonna" and today I hear "U2". A EXCELLENT piece of music you have hear.  Love the percussion beat and the way it flows.  Your mix really has great space and warmth with a wide stereo field.  The way the vocals sit and the verb/delay used are just perfect IMO.  One of your best and one of my favs.  KUDOS!


Kev

Loving this track Jules, your vocals, for me anyway, have an English folk rock air about them. I am mesmerized by this track and have already played it 3 times in succession. I'm also thinking Enya meets U2 for the chordal pattern and yet ethereal lyrical feel. Top notch...

Garry 


EDIT Just saw Old55's remark, yes thats it, Annie Haslam type sound in the vocal...

I found my mind drifting away into a Scandinavian coffee shop or Ikea or something. I liked the acoustical artifacts just floating around in the background. I also thought the vocals were nice. However it could use more breaks or changes thrown in here and there to break up the monotony.

julibee
Warren!  I was going to pm Fox about this, but you've brought it up as well. So I'll just say it here.... The vox control thing... I've learned to embrace the breathy.  For the longest time, I couldn't shake the "training", and admittedly, I was not the best opera singer out there.  But, I had power.... So that's what I knew to use.  Even when flat.  :)

In fact, I'm barely singing, in comparison.

It means that I had to get used to a whole new sound, and remember some of my favorite ambient artists.  Lately, I've been singing very lightly (not so much "control" as a severe backing off, although that's arguably the same thing).  It means not showing off unless absolutely called for.  It means being happy with the song and not the vocal acrobatics.  It's very different.

Nice job Julibee, you have a gifted voice and an ear for the mix too. Good clarity among the parts, catchy loops, nice use of effects for texture and excellent vocals. Amazing that this is 'holding back' .. wow. Nice timing for the entrance of the various voice parts. Those background ooooooo~ooooh parts are awesome, very powerful, but appropriately so. In the future, imho, you could even nudge the vocal power up a little bit more, especially when the tune has a motivated foundation with drive like this one does.  Well done. Really enjoyed listening to this.

I've been meaning to listen to this for a while now, sorry I have not had any downloads.

The mix is beautiful, the only nit pick and this is personal preference is maybe bring the main voice up a tad.

The vocal is sung beautifuly, it has real comercial value.

Really nice.  It's nice to have a female presence on the song forum.

Peace Ben

Gee, I'm going to sound so harsh compared to those guys above!  But...  This song rocks and it can be even better (IMO!).

What I hear is the old issue of wanting a certain effect on the vocals (or guitar, or...) and how that effect can sometimes make that vocal (or instrument) seem a bit lower and disconnected with the rest of the mix.  I would never profess myself accomplished in the mixing world, but I think the vocals need to be a bit more up front.  This could be done by more volume, removing other instruments taking up your space, reducing the amount of effect used or even (sometimes) something weird like adding the vocal track again without much effect but putting the volume low on that track.  It might add a little definition.

Another thing "I" hear is a bit of boominess and a lack of definition in the backing instruments (in other words, it seems a little muddy).  The boominess (if anyone else hears it) can be tamed, but the rest of the music could use some separation.

What I would suggest is playing it next to a reference track you're familiar with that's similar.  For example, take THIS (after the stupid ad) or, another from the same: THIS (at least the part in the beginning and the chorus).  Notice how much more the vocal stands out.  You have a voice that doesn't need to be hidden so I'd get it out there!  Here are a couple of more just to illustrate the point.  Check out the first track off of THIS Album Preview and THIS ONE (the part around 4:00 is similar to yours in the middle).

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that there's nothing wrong with YOU, you just need the music to be a bit better defined behind you.

Then, once you get this figured out, make a CD of these so I can buy it - I love songs like this!

Please note that the previous poster is probably on something - the song sounds fine!
 
(Hehe...  That's what I thought after I posted and read what I wrote.  Please realize that I was being VERY nit-picky 'cause you DO have the ability to be just as good as those other girls in my examples. )

Sorry if it seems I've forgotten this post... Been a little under the weather. Just a cold, but my brain is sleepy...

  Thank you all-- I do have some things to think about, and Craig, you spent way to much time on this. ;). Thank you.  Who was the third link?  Couldn't view it on my iPad... 
Thank you ALL.

julibee


Who was the third link?  Couldn't view it on my iPad...  

It was a Berlin song (When We Make Love), I couldn't find it by itself on YouTube.  I've uploaded the studio versions to an area of one of my sites so you can check 'em out if you want.  YouTube may be fast and convient, but sometimes you can't find the studio versions which are usually mixed differently than live versions!
 
Thanks for the mixing link by the way.  I've got several much bigger books (and a few videos) so I was curious to see how he had reduced things down.  I think he did a pretty good job.  That said, the areas I think you'll want to look into for your song are where he's talking about masking (which reduces clarity).
 
BTW - "Folktronica?"  Really?  Hehe...  In my little world all of the samples and your song kind of get generically lumped as New Wave though even that doesn't mean much any more!  Ha.
 
You can find the reference examples HERE!
 

Ha! Folktronica is a real genre!  Imogen Heap, Sufjan Stevens, Everything But the Girl, Beth Orton, Ochre....  Hip hop beats over acoustic samples with an electronic feel.  

And some of the "new" New Wave is termed "Chill Wave" which harkens back to Shoe Gaze (which I adore, but, didn't think this one really fit the bill).

It's funny, I listened to Berlin a LOT back in the day, doesn't surprise me at all if some of that comes out.  Ah!  Pleasure Victim was such a great album for a young, alterna-chick singer to hear. 

 And Aimee Mann has one to coolest voices in pop music, I think.  So different.

There's also loads of Siouxsie and the Banshees in my past.... During the Peepshow and Superstition years. I still catch myself singing some of that at odd times.  :)

I liked that mixing link because it was written to the electronica crowd-- it really is done a little differently, I think.

Heh...  I almost added a Siouxie song to those examples.  Since I pretty much have everything made by those bands (almost 40 albums total) I'm looking forward to hearing more work from you like Feathers.

I think this is very nice Julianna - you have really gotten good - this is great.