Composing in P5, and then mastering audio in Sonar

This board seems pretty dead, but here it goes nonetheless. Project5 is simply great...if FL Studio is so popular, why isn't P5? They're basically the same thing, but P5 is easier and more efficient. But I digress.

I am quite experienced at composing music in P5v2, but I am not at all familiar with the process of "mastering audio." I think doing so would make my music sound better, so I got Sonar X1. I would like to know how I can take a composition from P5 and master it in X1. This branches into a few sub-questions.

My songs consist entirely of MIDI played through VST soft synths - my favorites are z3ta, Nexus, and Garritan Orchestra. Imagine a finished composition in P5, ready for mastering. Should I mix down each track individually in P5 and then re-mix all the tracks in Sonar? Or should I mix down the whole composition in P5 and then apply some effects in Sonar? The former seems more thorough, but how would that be any better than adjusting the volume levels in P5 prior to mixing down? I know it doesn't have a mixer board, but a mixer board is just a glorified set of volume sliders. 

If there is some other way of doing this not mentioned above, please blow my mind. 

Wow, I guess this board really is dead. What happened to the "dedicated fanbase" for Project5? 

If this doesn't get a response in a few more days, I'm re-posting this in the Sonar forum. 

You do realize that Project5 was discontinued over 3 years ago, right?  This used to be a thriving community, but most P5 users have moved on to something else after CW announced its demise, and this forum has pretty much become a ghost town ever since.

Anyway, you might want to look into ReWiring P5 into Sonar.  That's probably the most flexible approach.

cryophonik


You do realize that Project5 was discontinued over 3 years ago, right?  This used to be a thriving community, but most P5 users have moved on to something else after CW announced its demise, and this forum has pretty much become a ghost town ever since.

Anyway, you might want to look into ReWiring P5 into Sonar.  That's probably the most flexible approach.

Hey, thanks for responding. (Side note - I heard your music a while back on Myspace and liked it a lot.)

Yes, I realize that...so? It's still an awesome workstation, and Cakewalk still supports it to some extent. Why would you become any less enthusiastic about it simply because it isn't manufactured anymore? That is irrelevant. If you really like P5, you should keep using it, keep posting about it, and maybe that will encourage Cake to bring it back. Even if they don't, I'll still keep using it and promoting it. 

So my understanding of rewiring is that you can basically use P5 as an instrument within Sonar. What exactly does that mean, though? Does it convert the P5 project into a bunch of audio waveforms, which can then be further manipulated in Sonar? Or...what?

You can rewire p5 into sonar.  Start a song in p5, put that into sonar via rewire.  The entire song in P5 plays along w/ SONAR.  I used to freeze the synths into audio and import or drag the audio into SONAR.

Sonar, of course, is much better (and has more effects) at audio and mixing.  Record any acoustic stuff and away you go using SONAR as your main software.  Once you get to know sonar you'll find you can do a lot of what you do in P5 in SONAR itself, if you want.  It ain't as easy or intuitive, but you can still get the same sort of music out.

And yea, nobody post here anymore, though I guess me and cryo still check up.  And Chad, I believe.  Feel free to post - someone will come along.

@

AT


You can rewire p5 into sonar.  Start a song in p5, put that into sonar via rewire.  The entire song in P5 plays along w/ SONAR.  I used to freeze the synths into audio and import or drag the audio into SONAR.

Sonar, of course, is much better (and has more effects) at audio and mixing.  Record any acoustic stuff and away you go using SONAR as your main software.  Once you get to know sonar you'll find you can do a lot of what you do in P5 in SONAR itself, if you want.  It ain't as easy or intuitive, but you can still get the same sort of music out.

And yea, nobody post here anymore, though I guess me and cryo still check up.  And Chad, I believe.  Feel free to post - someone will come along.

@

So it just plays along with it, as opposed to importing the audio? What does it mean to "freeze" a synth?


P5 is only limited by what you put into it. P5 can use any effect plug-in that you want. I don't record any acoustic stuff. The best thing about P5 is its workflow. That's the whole point of using it. So I highly doubt I will switch to composing in Sonar. P5 is simply better for what I (and many others) do. 


As for mixing, your point was begging the question. I originally asked:

"...how would that be any better than adjusting the volume levels in P5 prior to mixing down? I know it doesn't have a mixer board, but a mixer board is just a glorified set of volume sliders."


I might be wrong, but can you explain how I'm wrong?

No, rewire syncs the two softwares - P5 plays w/in SONAR.  My (and other's) technique was to compose in P5 rewired to SONAR and then import the audio for further maipulation.  You could archive your synths but have them readily available to edit.   Freezing a synth means to turn it into audio so it doesn't drain your cpu.  Not such a big thing anymore, but think of it as bouncing a clip down to audio w/ alll your effects printed.  And it is simple to unfreeze it - simple click of the old button.  P5 introduced the feature to Cakewalk DAWs, I believe.

I didn't talk about composing in SONAR except to say I do - it has many of the features of P5, plus a better render engine.  That is good, if you care about the quality of your sound.  One of the reasons I switched primarily to SONAR.  I do agree that P5 is a great workflow, tho, expecially for loop based pattern music.  However, many people do record audio.   Sorry if my attempt to help offended you.

Mixing is more than adjusting your volumes.   Many times I switch over to Sound Forge.  It is easy in SONAR to open and send audio to SF and import it back.  Sonar has a greater array of effects, which you have to buy separate in P5.  More sends.  The list goes on. 

Anybody who peeks in at this forum has probably been using P5 since before it was dropped by Cakewalk.  While it is great to see new people get excited, it is a little cheeky to get lectured about how great it is by someone who doesn't know basics like rewire and freezing.

Good luck and have fun.

AT


No, rewire syncs the two softwares - P5 plays w/in SONAR.  My (and other's) technique was to compose in P5 rewired to SONAR and then import the audio for further maipulation.  You could archive your synths but have them readily available to edit.   Freezing a synth means to turn it into audio so it doesn't drain your cpu.  Not such a big thing anymore, but think of it as bouncing a clip down to audio w/ alll your effects printed.  And it is simple to unfreeze it - simple click of the old button.  P5 introduced the feature to Cakewalk DAWs, I believe.

I didn't talk about composing in SONAR except to say I do - it has many of the features of P5, plus a better render engine.  That is good, if you care about the quality of your sound.  One of the reasons I switched primarily to SONAR.  I do agree that P5 is a great workflow, tho, expecially for loop based pattern music.  However, many people do record audio.   Sorry if my attempt to help offended you.

Mixing is more than adjusting your volumes.   Many times I switch over to Sound Forge.  It is easy in SONAR to open and send audio to SF and import it back.  Sonar has a greater array of effects, which you have to buy separate in P5.  More sends.  The list goes on. 

Anybody who peeks in at this forum has probably been using P5 since before it was dropped by Cakewalk.  While it is great to see new people get excited, it is a little cheeky to get lectured about how great it is by someone who doesn't know basics like rewire and freezing.

Good luck and have fun.

Lol, not offended at all.


I'm actually not new, I've been using it since version 1 in (I think) 2006. I might be ignorant about certain features, but you have to admit that those features are optional. It's possible to never use rewire or freezing...and so far I haven't. 


But my experience level is really irrelevant. My point is that I am surprised people are not posting here, and I was surprised when cryo said many people have "moved on" from P5. I originally drew the analogy to FL. If FL is so popular, why isn't P5? Any thoughts?


Anyway thanks, I'll try some of your suggestions and post back when I think of more questions. 

Cool.

P5 was originally a soft synth player.  P5 V2 opened the software up as another DAW.  It added midi out, audio in and Dimension as Cake's premier soft synth.

I imagine what happened is rather than bringing in a new customer base for Cakewalk, P5 mostly cannibalized existing Cake users - despite good reviews (including yours truly).  Most loopers stayed or went w/ Live, which was there first, just like Protools.  Cakewalk determined they couldn't make enough money to justify updating P5, so they started migrating some of its functions to SONAR.  Which was a shame - the code for P5 was new and would have made a good basis for X1.  Some of the problems w/ SONAR, like stuttering, would be a thing of the past.  But that is all ancient history now, in DAW terms.  and users like new functions and toys, so many have moved on.

@

AT


Cool.

P5 was originally a soft synth player.  P5 V2 opened the software up as another DAW.  It added midi out, audio in and Dimension as Cake's premier soft synth.

I imagine what happened is rather than bringing in a new customer base for Cakewalk, P5 mostly cannibalized existing Cake users - despite good reviews (including yours truly).  Most loopers stayed or went w/ Live, which was there first, just like Protools.  Cakewalk determined they couldn't make enough money to justify updating P5, so they started migrating some of its functions to SONAR.  Which was a shame - the code for P5 was new and would have made a good basis for X1.  Some of the problems w/ SONAR, like stuttering, would be a thing of the past.  But that is all ancient history now, in DAW terms.  and users like new functions and toys, so many have moved on.

@

You have a point there... People seek the "novelty factor" and constantly want new things. Ah, the follies of human psychology...


But you wouldn't say that the structure of P5 is outdated, would you? On the contrary, I think it remains fresh and ahead of its time. And of course, if you want to add new things to P5, just get some new plug-ins for it. Ultimately the plug-ins are what you use most. The DAW is just a place to do your work. 

There are some good points being made here, I still use P5 religiously Rewired in Sonar and S1 as it doesn't have the MIDI functionality that I'm use too. Also it is my goto scratch pad and it will be until my PC out grows it. I wish P5 and Rene Ceballos were still with cakewalk but that doesn't dampen my enjoyment with these programs and Synths.

I too still use P5. Sometimes I do rewire into Sonar, but mostly I save the midi in p% and then drop it into Sonar. By the way ............. Hi AT, glad to hear you're still around. We should have some kind of online reunion or something.

Cool, Chris.  I'll buy the online beer!

@

 How do we organize something,to get all the old P5er's back together? I'd love to hear how they are getting along, and what they are using. Help me figure this out.

Neuroharmony

But you wouldn't say that the structure of P5 is outdated, would you? On the contrary, I think it remains fresh and ahead of its time. And of course, if you want to add new things to P5, just get some new plug-ins for it. Ultimately the plug-ins are what you use most. The DAW is just a place to do your work. 
 

"there are that many other DAWs out there that offer these facilities without the workarounds (and that are still being actively developed and fixed) that most people have moved on." . . . . What have you moved on to? Have you found a program that gives you the same quick loading, easy interface as P5? It seems that every program I've looked into is too stuffed with frills. If I want all the bells and whistles I'll just start Sonar. I want something that is fast and can be used in the spur of the moment.

Chris,

I guess we could all start posting in the P5 forum again.  I check it when I'm at Cakewalk, but nothing much happens.  Maybe I should start posting cute kitten video links here - that ought to bring a crowd!


But no, there is nothing quite like P5 for ease of use.  I admit, I use SONAR more and more, but it is awful busy w/ screen and stuff I never use.  However, the higher render rates are nice.


@

 Oh I agree, I use my Sonar X1 nearly every session. It has nearly everything I could ever want or imagine. But I just love the way when I just want to play around, and open something simple, P5 fills that niche. Is there some other suitable substitute, that doesn't require months of learning?

Chris in Indy


"there are that many other DAWs out there that offer these facilities without the workarounds (and that are still being actively developed and fixed) that most people have moved on." . . . . What have you moved on to? Have you found a program that gives you the same quick loading, easy interface as P5? It seems that every program I've looked into is too stuffed with frills. If I want all the bells and whistles I'll just start Sonar. I want something that is fast and can be used in the spur of the moment.

The current DAW's I have are Ableton Live 8 with Max for Live, Reason 6.5 and Studio One v2 Pro. Live is probably the nearest to P5 in terms of the Groove Matrix feature and being able to move and swap instruments and effects around. Studio One, for me, is the best linear type DAW workflow wise with it's drag and drop features and melodyne integration. With Reason, it's a different way of doing things with the rack and virtual cables...not like P5 at all but very good for getting things going quickly.
 
To be honest, I have little free time for making music at the moment and am seriously considering going with just Reason...the main motivation for this is that there is no messing about with bit bridges or having to download multiple plugin updates from different sites on a regular basis - all updates are pretty much in the one place. As it is now, if I have 2 hours on a given day to make some music, I seem to spend the first 60 mins updating various plugs before I even get started on anything remotely creative...so we'll see whether I can live without all the VST's I currently have and what the Rack Extension stuff holds for the future. 

I still maintain a Project5 User website with a lot of information contributed by many P5 users over the years a https://project5.technetos.com/.  It is a replacement for the old "P5 Wiki" that had been shutdown--I happened to have 100% of the content available after the Wiki was shutdown so I decided to give it a home on the web for everyone who still wanted to access it.

There are some Rewire articles there (among many other tutorials) and quite a few downloads for songs, sounds, etc.

Music is something I do in my spare time and from year to year I have other things that take precedence in the spare time, so I just don't use P5 as much as I used to.  I started with Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 long before Project5 was ever created, and I have kept up with its evolution into what is now SONAR X1.  Much of Project5's features have been moved into SONAR and expanded upon.

Thanks Bob,

great stuff for those who don't already have it bookmarked.

Hi there Neuro. I was just thinking about this for the same reason and looking through the threads I noticed that most people have 'moved on' but still continue to use P5 for music creation as it is, as you rightly say, so very easy to use. I am looking again to see whats 'out there' as I have recently purchased plug ins that are not supported in P5. I downloaded the LE version of x1 but gave up using it pretty quickly as it wasn't anywhere near as intuitive as P5 and have very little spare time trying to understand cryptic menus when I just want to make tunes. If it was my 'job' then fine I would need to spend time getting under the skin of it but why should I have to be a computer wizard when its just a hobby? In reference to the freezing of tracks this is a brilliant way of allowing you to use power hungry top notch effects with a small processor load. Another good tip is to click on the little processor on the top right of the menu bar every once in a while as this 'refreshes' the midi settings and processor load to stop stuck notes etc.