Sonar X2 Notation

Hi,
I could not find any mention of notation improvement in Sonar X2.  Does anybody know if there are any changes in the notation engine?
Thanks,
Sergio  

So far it doesn't look like it.

So Sad if there isn't any staff view improvements :(

im not sure but would you fair better with a 3rd party software for notation?
i havent used it thats why i ask?

I've mentioned this a few times now but I think it would be cool if the Cakewalk guys allowed a third party company to create a dockable, fully integrated Staff View add on so those who need it can buy it from the Cake Store. I'd probably invest in something like that.

Careful,  I started a thread on this and it ended with people suggesting I was only after my best interests and there is not enough data to suggest that notation is worth improving.

Beepster


I've mentioned this a few times now but I think it would be cool if the Cakewalk guys allowed a third party company to create a dockable, fully integrated Staff View add on so those who need it can buy it from the Cake Store. I'd probably invest in something like that.

THis is a cool idea.  I got Notion3 to rewire into Sonar to do this,  but it only worked for one track at a time.

Yeah, I saw that. Considering how many people have asked for it it probably is a sound business decision and at worst if they made it a paid add on they could cover their dev costs that way. Seems simple to me. Maybe there are patent issues in the mix causing problems.

I occasionally make a good smart... occasionally. ;-p

I've seen people here asking for SV improvements for years, fallen on deaf ears. I acknowledge I've become quite annoyed by this and reflected a bit of my frustration on here from time to time.

I was hopeful (I guess still am for the balance of the month) that CW would at least provide some signs of appreciation for the minority of users who consider SV a critical component of their Sonar use (again, myself amongst them).

We've discussed this in good length in the past, so feel repeating any detail would be quite redundant and unnecessary. But to summarize:


- nobody wants a full-blown professional notation and printing facility. There are existing solutions for that audience. But the problem for the Sonar user is that these don't effectively integrate with Sonar nor help the musician/composer with workflow or the basic compositional and arranging process. 

- in a nutshell, what I'd like to have is a quality SV comparable to what C6.5 has in place today. Nothing more, nothing less. And then progressively fine-tune it as everything else is maintained and fine-tuned in Sonar.


CAKEWALK: Are you listening?

I'm hoping for a plugin that will analyze and print out the score for "The Rite of Spring" from a two track MP3.

No mention of Staff view but there are more features to be unfurled later this month.

Perhaps you should get a petition on the forum lol. Get all members to agree NOT to upgrade until they give clear information on what if anything is happening with the Notation abilities of Sonar. It's not as if this is a new issue, I've watched this come up over and over again yet nothing done, a little show of solidarity for those who compose using notation wouldn't go a miss. I for one, will happily hold out to support those who need notation (don't use it myself).

As a show of solidarity, I'll add my $.02 that I would also like to see the staff view improved. Gusfmm, I think you described what most of us are looking for perfectly, hopefully no one could blame us for wanting just that.

There haven't been improvements since forever it seems and it is not likely to change. Actually I like how the SV works for the most part but don't like that you can't use better subdivisions of note values.

I use Finale to write out my stuff when the SV proves inadaquate.

there you go finale is one that i would suggest as well.
i just dont think there is enough of an audience for it,no shame on me im sorry,but there have been only 15 posts in 24 hrs and a handfull of people asking for it.2 of those posts are mine and have no use for it.i do all my editing in the prv or the old fashon way like the musicians used to...live !!!

i just dont see cake putting in the effort to promote something of a dying breed.
like i said,im sorry.
i could be wrong,maybe in the future we will see great improvments.
i hope so for you guys.

I would think it has to do w/ ecomonics.  Cakewalk started out as a midi squencer, then added audio,  then other means of "inputting" sound. 

I doubt if 10% of SONAR users extensively use notation, who have stuck w/ SONAR up to now.  I imagine if someone really needs notation they have a notation program (that costs as much as SONAR itself).  Cake  did make XML (is that right?) exportable in X1.  With such a small base, it hardly warrents spending money to expand notation that most likely won't lead to further sales.

Sorry, that is the way it is.  If Cake thought they could make money expanding notation, they would do it.  They haven't, ergo.

@

IDK, chuck. I see this come up all the time and although it's not a factor in my continued usage of Sonar stuff it would be something extremely useful to myself and really any traditionally trained musician (not that I am one but I am slowly learning all that stuff). I'd actually like to see full notation orchestral scoring/MIDI capabilities. Obviously that is huge but I'll keep saying it (not that anyone at Cake will listen to the rantings of a crazy n00b) it can be an add on... IT CAN BE AN ADD ON... IT CAN BE A PAID ADD ON!!! I kind of envision this. Contract a third party company more used to notation scoring to design it. Make it fully integrated with X1 so we can score and then easily apply any of our synths to the notes (like it does now but a little smoother and maybe have menus IN the actual SV that dictate what synth controls which staff... like a browser). Then they could charge different price points for different levels of complexity. ie: Included version is simple Treble and Bass clef and piano staff and some guitar and bass functions similar to what we have now (except fix the darned guitar chord thing... it sucks). The next version up would be for putting together band arrangements up to same 8-12 instruments. The next version up would be for full orchestral type scoring. Make it dockable and as I said fully integrated with an easy way to apply synths (like Dim Pro) directly to each staff/part. There should be a little window to get to the browser in there. Frack man... they could make a fortune and turn Sonar into the go to for TRUE music dorks.

And the idea would be "instant orchestra". I think it, I toss it on the staff, my computer plays it. It'd be like Beethoven sitting down with a full orchestra (and way way more with the nature of VSTs) in his living room and as soon as his pen hits the paper the musicians can play the part. No screwing around. You write it. Pick an instrument and KAPLOW... it's done. THAT is what I, personally, want.

http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/X1-Producer/Expanded/default.aspx/Notation-Expanded

Also PRV is great for a lot of things but it is a huge hassle compared to proper notation scoring. If you know what you are doing on the staff tonally you can get stuff done WAY more easily than with PRV. The PRV, IMO, would then be used for adjusting dynamics and more intricate editing of not length (as figuring out note duration is actually more complicated in notation than PRV). Just some thoughts.

That is not integrated nor dockable. That just says you can export to those programs.

Beepster


That is not integrated nor dockable. That just says you can export to those programs.

True Beep, but that is Cakewalk's position on the whole Staff View thing... they obviously don't want us to use Sonar for intricate scoring, or else why mention, as they put it "popular notation programs."

I'm actually not rabid about the Staff View thing like others are but it would be nice. Just throwing some ideas out there in case the Cakesters are listening. I think it'd be cool and possibly calm these rumblings... AND perhaps make them some money in the process. I mean... everyone likes money, right? ;-p

thebiglongy


Perhaps you should get a petition on the forum lol. Get all members to agree NOT to upgrade until they give clear information on what if anything is happening with the Notation abilities of Sonar. It's not as if this is a new issue, I've watched this come up over and over again yet nothing done, a little show of solidarity for those who compose using notation wouldn't go a miss. I for one, will happily hold out to support those who need notation (don't use it myself).

I won't :-)

I can guarantee that there will be a day where the Bakers will have regrets not paying attention to staff view.  I don't know the when, why or how,  but i've been in this buisness long enough to know and see things change.  Things change a lot especially regarding technology.  Notation will still be around and how orchestras and  jazz bands and all kinds of music will still be performed. DAWs might not... 

The thing is it's very difficult for those who do not understand notation to appreciate how useful it is... and that is no slag to people who don't because I've only just come to gain a basic understanding of it myself after twenty years of playing and everyone has their own way of doing things. Whatever works works IMO. However once an understanding of notation is there in your mind the functionality, simplicity and compact nature of the notation staff is EXTREMELY useful when dealing with tones and keys. For timing and dynamics not so much. PRV is great but it is a much larger format, takes up far more screen space and instead of just tossing in a key signature and knowing where to drop things you have to pluck away like a frantic hen to get things done. The point is to dismiss those who use notation is contrary to a couple hundred years of musical knowledge and tradition. Notation was MIDI (write it, musicians read and play it) before MIDI could even be conceptualized. Not gonna affect any of my future purchases from Cake but it is an interesting subject. And I find the reference to "bedroom" musicians/engineers a little silly as the location and proximity of the mind and talent of an individual has absolutely nothing to do with their abilities as a musician.

synkrotron

Jimbo 88


Notation will still be around and how orchestras and  jazz bands and all kinds of music will still be performed. DAWs might not... 

And I think that's the whole point, right there. I wouldn't mind betting that fewer people are using DAWs like Sonar to compose music that will then be played by an orchestra or session musicians, from sheet music printed from the same DAW, while they, in turn, are then recorded as audio back into that DAW.


More and more bands are using Sonar/Logic/PT, what ever, to create ideas in their homes, who then get together in the studio, and don't even bother with sheet music. And I'm talking about regular, professional bands here, not bedroom peeps like me. I've watched recent video blogs of Opeth and Meshuggah (like them or not, it does not matter), and that is how the use DAWs to help create their music. Steve Wilson of Porcupine Tree is another example... DAWs are great for that kind of thing, in my humble opinion.


Anyway, back to my bedroom now... got to make some throw away muzak...

Yes, and in a round about way you are making my point for me... Not to belittle you or anyone, but while you go back to your bedroom I'm going back to my studio.  I'm preparing a score that I'm being well paid for and will recieve royalties.  I'm preparing a  Trumpet score to be recorded into Sonar.
 
10+ years ago I hand wrote the music and recorded the trumpet on a Tascam 88.
 
Today I compose in Sonar, record in Sonar and score in Sibelius.
 
10 years from now who knows how I will record,  but I will still have to prepare the music for the Trumpet player.  The Tascam 88 is no longer needed,  but the music still is. 
 
Sonar got a good start in the industry  'cause Cakewalk had a decent staff view for the time.  The sequencer went more hand in hand with notation.  The common denomonator is the music score/notation. 
 
10 years from now there is a good chance the guys in the bedroom will not be using a DAW....but 10 years from now there will be me and others still preparing a score for recording and notation will be the basis for that technology, just as it was for Sonar once upon a time.

Jimbo 88


I can guarantee that there will be a day where the Bakers will have regrets not paying attention to staff view.  I don't know the when, why or how,  but i've been in this buisness long enough to know and see things change.  Things change a lot especially regarding technology.  Notation will still be around and how orchestras and  jazz bands and all kinds of music will still be performed. DAWs might not... 

I hope you are wrong but I fear you are right. If CW does not improve the Staff View in a way that brings it up to that offered by Cubase or Logic Sonar will never be taken as seriously as I hope CW wishes it to be.


No it wont mean anything to people that play by ear nor the loopers or electronic musicians but it will have an unfortunate impact on jazz musicians and classical musicians alike; people who think in notation and communicate via notation and can not do so because of CW's refusal to improve it. People that want and need their ideas shown in notation are not going to choose Sonar. 


Music departments in colleges are not going to pick it as their first choice for general use for this very reason.

People that have trained their entire lives using notation are not going to let that skill go dormant. 
No need when there are very good alternatives in the form of Cubase and Logic. 


The fact that Sonar has had notation all these years puts it in their league yet no one in those fields would consider it because its notation is so poor.


Reaper and Studio one have no notation and don't claim to be general purpose DAWs. CW has by the fact it covers all aspects of music does have ambitions for being in this league. But in this one area it falls very short. 


I hope CW wakes up to how important proper and good integrated notation is to garner the respect and prestige it will command from those that live with and by notation in their daily work.  


There are far more that one may think. 


   

Theres been a huge investment in pro tools in colleges and schools ever since the integrated Sibelius..  Some of these future users will continue to use protools as their weapon of choice.

since cakewalk omitted traditional notation symbols in favour of 'half , quarter note etc.. 'they just lost out on an order for at least 20 copies at school. Wonder how many other schools rejected it too.. I know of lots of schools who still use Logic for pc.. Which is over a decade old .. Why? Notation.
The market exists - good companies spot the opportunities... 

The fixes needed are small and possible..
Bring back notation symbols please...
Add tied triplet please.
If possible - Cakewalk have got drum maps function which could be developed into articulations key switches for sample libraries... 

Simples!

Beepster


Also PRV is great for a lot of things but it is a huge hassle compared to proper notation scoring. If you know what you are doing on the staff tonally you can get stuff done WAY more easily than with PRV. The PRV, IMO, would then be used for adjusting dynamics and more intricate editing of not length (as figuring out note duration is actually more complicated in notation than PRV). Just some thoughts.

i thought the prv was the answer to the drw back in time it took to score all your parts.
have you used the prv beepster?
if you havent then this may be an unfairstatment your making saying staff view is so much easier,if thats indeed what your saying.

.

For what it is worth. I would like to have the same editing tools in the staff view as in the PRV including control over SNAP.  I do not need to export scores I just want to have the tools to compose in the view I understand.  PRV is fine for percussion.

Anyway... back on topic, and I'd like to ask a question regarding note input via Staff View. Let me explain, in a round about way;
When I input notes directly onto the PRV, I always, at first, drop all of my notes bang on the beat, if you know what I mean, and I don't pay much attention to dynamics at this point. I'm primarily working on melodies, harmonies, rhythms, and the interaction between each. Might not be the best way, but it is my way.


What you end up with is a stereotypical MIDI computer composition with no feeling, every note bang on time and would only be at home in a poor 1990s computer game.


I'll then go back over the individual parts and I'll start to pull things around a bit, altering velocities and note positions in an attempt to put some "life" into the piece. I do all of this in PRV, because in the early days, I do not recall being able to finely tweak notes in Staff View, and that is one of the reasons why I stopped using it really.


So the question I am asking, I suppose, is can you do everything in Staff View nowadays? How does it handle grace notes and fills? In the light of the passion shown in this topic, perhaps I should give it another chance, to at least see how things have changed over the years.




cheers


andy

OK, this question was not directed at me,  but it is a very good question and I'm soooo glad you asked it!!!
 
Working in a strict notation program like Finale or Sibelius you end up with a composition that sounds just as you described "a stereotypical MIDI computer composition --  a bad 1990's computer game sound".  Those programs have little ability to add any life to the sounds. 
 
In Sonar (and most DAWs) you have the tools to create something that sounds realistic,  something that people can listen too.  Staff view becomes essential if you are composing for any kind of music work for real instruments.  Let's say you want to do a Big Band Jazz score.  Not being able to work with the score is like playing Chess and not being able to see the whole chess board at one time.  You will be able to do it,  but much, much more effiecent if you can see and move your voicings in a staff view.  And there are, and will always be, many people who just need to compose looking at a staff.   If Sonar is strictly an audio recording/mixing app, then fine.  Me and many others will have to move on.  But one of the big reasons I jumped into Cakewalk was it had a workable staffview.   
 
So, as many have said,  we do not necessarily need Sonar to print out a publishable score.  Just be able to work at a reasonable level with the Staff View.  Sonar has been going backwards here.  And many of us are trying to point out the advantages of not doing so.
Back to your original question... Sonar does not handle grace notes and fills very well.  In fact,  not a as well as it use to.

Elffin


Theres been a huge investment in pro tools in colleges and schools ever since the integrated Sibelius..  Some of these future users will continue to use protools as their weapon of choice.

since cakewalk omitted traditional notation symbols in favour of 'half , quarter note etc.. 'they just lost out on an order for at least 20 copies at school. Wonder how many other schools rejected it too.. I know of lots of schools who still use Logic for pc.. Which is over a decade old .. Why? Notation.
The market exists - good companies spot the opportunities... 

The fixes needed are small and possible..
Bring back notation symbols please...
Add tied triplet please.
If possible - Cakewalk have got drum maps function which could be developed into articulations key switches for sample libraries... 

Simples!

YES!  +1   Last January I was asked to teach a class at a college in a Masters program.  The students were at a very high level and what where they all required to work with???  
 
Logic and Sibelius. 
 
2 reasons,  
Apple Computers and  Notation.    

Maybe cake can’t fix the notation in sonar without a complete rewrite and this is why they have chosen not to address the issue. I’m not aware of any major updates since it was introduced.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions there Jimbo. On reflection, I should support the campaign for better functionality within staff view. At the end of the day, Sonar, for me, has been about flexibility and choices...

rabeach


Maybe cake can’t fix the notation in sonar without a complete rewrite and this is why they have chosen not to address the issue. I’m not aware of any major updates since it was introduced.

That was what the jump from 8.5 to X1 was suppose to accomplish.  A complete rewrite.

@chuck... Hi, dude. How are, ya?
I have indeed used the PRV and I am certainly not ragging on it. I will be using it quite often for multiple reasons, one of which is although I understand notation these days I am not as proficient as I'd like to be. Also PRV would be my go to for tweaking note lengths and volume/articulation. But that does not negate the usefulness of the notation staff (and that point actually doesn't have anything to do with Sonar or any other program. It is just the nature of the staff itself).
I'm not sure how in depth you understand notation or general theory principles (and it doesn't matter because I'm of the mindset that if it works for you then do it) but you must appreciate at the least how much screen space using the Staff View saves as well as enabling a smoother workflow because the notes are grouped more tightly together. Look at it this way.
In PRV all twelve chromatic notes are displayed stacked on top of each other. That is twelve separate lines of data just to achieve one octave. With the notation staff immediately you are cutting out five of those lines because instead of displaying all of the non sharp/flat notes we use key signatures and accidentals to represent those tones. Furthermore we are using the spaces AND lines to put our notes on as opposed to a space for every letter note. That makes it so we are using 4 spaces to achieve the same amount of tones the PRV needs 12 spaces to display. So that is one way the staff is more efficient.

Now probably the most important and beneficial reason to use the staff are key signatures and the concept of consecutive letter note names. Each key has 7 unique notes. These notes follow alphabetical order and no note is repeated or omitted. As you know each line and space on the staff represents one of these letter name notes in order. In C which has no sharps or flats you can easily just hum a bar and write it down on the staff if you are familiar with the steps/intervals of the key. Want a different key? Simply toss a key signature on the staff and use the appropriate letter note as your starting point. There is no guess work and you don't even have to have the specific note names memorized for every key. In PRV you do have to know that stuff or work through trial and error (unless you are a proficient keyboard player and have the key forms memorized I guess). Also in PRV the notes don't go consecutively right after another. You have to account for the spaces between each step of the scale which are sometimes there and sometimes not and that can make inputting (IMO) more difficult and cumbersome than on the staff.

There are a ton of other reasons like easily constructing and expressing chords, inversions, transposition, etc... but the above are a couple of the more useful characteristics of the notation staff. When it comes down to it it's just another tool but an extremely powerful one and it is the universally agreed upon language of music. It just makes sense to have it running as well as possible which from the sounds of things it is not. I've used the SV a couple of times so far for simple stuff and it works but it is certainly quirky and not very intuitive. I could see it becoming a real problem if I started getting a little more ambitious which is most definitely going to be happening... and soon.

Anyway, hopefully that clears up my views and probably some of the views of the folks who have been wanting an improvement as well. It really is hard to grasp how much easier notation can be compared to other input methods without fully understanding it. I think that's why we get this constant back and forth on the topic around here. It would be like if Cakewalk decided to let the PRV languish and become unusable for anything pro and instead put all the attention on the staff and then users who'd never used or understood the PRV dismissing those complaining. That would anger a lot of people and for good reason I think.

As I said though to me it's not a deal breaker and I'm certainly not bent out of shape about it but it sure would be nice to have a top notch notation input option. Hope that all makes sense. Cheers.

@synkrotron... Hi there. I didn't mistake your statements as ragging on "bedroom" producers. Quite the opposite actually. When that fellow in the other thread started blathering about that I found it very condescending and it bothered me that you would take his narrow minded views and apply them to yourself. I was gonna make a comment to him but I figured it wasn't worth it because his statements were hyperbolic, reactionary and irrational. So yeah, don't let dudes like that define who and what you are as a musician. That was outright pompousness. As far as doing what you'd like to in staff view I believe that is what some of the hubbub is about. It is NOT as capable as PRV for those types of functions but it could and probably should be. As it stands I will probably try to use the SV to get everything together tonally and then pop it into PRV work out the more finite timing and articulations. As far as that rigid MIDI computer game type sound that's what all those weird humanizing features are for. How well they work? Well I haven't played with the too much yet but they seem to do a pretty good job at first glance and from some of the vids I've seen. Really though when it comes down to it notation written on paper a couple hundred years ago would sound like that if inputting directly into a MIDI program as well. That's where the human computers came into play (the musicians). Their "flaws" and "imperfections" are what made the music real sounding. Not the way it was written. I kind of look at notation as old computer punchcards. A well trained musician would process the data in much the same way those old analog computers would. Again it is all a matter of what works best for you. If you are making music and enjoying yourself in the process that is all that really matters. Cheers, mate.

Okay Beep... s'good to know I hadn't annoyed you... it's not what I'm here for, athough it is sometimes inevitable that I'll cheese someone off from time to time.

Regarding the humanizing tools within Sonar/Cakewalk... I've never used them, and I prefer to give my MIDI tracks the personal touch, when I think it needs it. A bit long winded,  I know, and perhaps I should try to learn how to get the best out of those tools one day.

One thing is for sure... None of the Cakewalk peeps have commented in this post, whereas they have posted in some of the other X2 topics. So, either they are avoiding the issue because the SV is the same as it ever was, or... they are sworn to secrecy and they have a big surprise awaiting with a much enhanced scoring tool coming.........

@Elffin, What do you mean by traditional notation v half note, quarter note, etc.? Doesn't traditional notation use normal note values? I am obviously misunderstanding what you are saying. Thanks.

@synkrotron... Aw, dude. I've found you to be extremely pleasant and a joy to talk to. I couldn't see anyone getting ruffled about anything you post. I on the other hand have gotten a couple of people hot under the collar but I can be a little spastic at times. Heh. As far as the Cakesters not commenting on this I'm assuming it's because they don't have anything cooking in regards to the SV. Frankly considering the abuse those poor guys take every time they show up, even when it's good news, I don't blame them for not chiming in.

I think what Elifin is refering to is that Sonar's staff view does not work with any articulations,  just what you see on the staff.

For example:  a quarter note with a dot over it... is short,  and lengthwise should be played like an 8th note.  (or an 8th note followed by an 8th rest) 

konradh


@Elffin, What do you mean by traditional notation v half note, quarter note, etc.? Doesn't traditional notation use normal note values? I am obviously misunderstanding what you are saying. Thanks.

Sorry for that .. I meant not value icons  - rhythm symbols... 

For those wondering if Cakewalk staff were going to reply to this thread - i very much doubt... 

Cakewalk remind me of my wife when it comes to shopping ...I ask, ask and ask but she never listens 

Sonar is what it is. Expecting something more and crying about it is like going to a restaurant ordering a steak then complaining because it doesn't come with shrimp too.

never asked for shrimp.. Just wanted my steak 'well done'  !

Don't bother, man. The guy doesn't even know what he's talking about.

Tell us again how to get Guitar Rig 5 for $79 !!

Go away. The adults are talking.

The adults ?? You spend a lousy couple of hundred dollars on software and think you're a big spender ?? You think you're such a big shot you're demanding answers ??
 
Up yours you jack azz !!!

I have demanded nothing.

djwayne


Sonar is what it is. Expecting something more and crying about it is like going to a restaurant ordering a steak then complaining because it doesn't come with shrimp too.

Bad analogy...it's more like going to a steak house that you've been to many times, ordering steak and being told they improved everything on the menue, but the steak is not as good anymore.

The steak doesn't come with shrimp and you should know that by now. Maybe you should go to the restaurant across the street. You won't be missed.

Please you newcomers, do a search on this topic. It has been begged for and the topic beat to death for many years. Threats, comparisons, boycotts, etc, have all been broached. True integrated scoring is not going to happen.....Just accept it or move on /

It's just a conversation. That's what this place is for. They can leave it as is, they can change it for better or worse, they can remove it completely. It won't affect my decision to use Cake software. It would be nice if it was fixed up though. That's all.

no its not "just" a conversation... it is a valid request, but it is a dead horse . You are relativity new Beep, and I know you from " downstairs" , but just an FYI, this topic has become heated, mean spirited, confrontational, people left this forum over it..it is one of the hot buttons,,, just a friendly FYI... PS I would love to see integration, but I use a 3rd party scoring program, (the one cakewalk sold) for my scoring.. No problem brother beepster,, rock on

@musicman... Cheers, dude and thanks for the heads up. I'm used to internet wackiness though and I think I've been pretty calm and reasoned. Just chatting. If people get upset... well they are misunderstanding me or are just unreasonable. I like talking to you guys and I'll be darned if I'm gonna let people interfere with that. There is too much value in the folks here to let it get ruined by the occasional weirdo. They'll just get ignored or blocked. Peace.

And like I said I'm not overly concerned about it. Just thought maybe I'd toss some ideas out there for the Bakers. If they made it an add on they could make some dough and put the debate to rest. I'd be inclined to buy it. Cheers.