SToons
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 01:52:30
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Jonbouy
It seems sort of like a cheap shot to dwell on my mention of a single instrument and player that I enjoy helping.
That was the vehicle that you actually used as a cheap shot to highlight Sonar's lack of varispeed that's probably why it got mentioned.
Have you even used 'varispeed' in the context of digital recording? Have you noticed how it differs from controlling a mechanical rotary tape transport?
I have, many times. Please elaborate on the differences and why this is an issue.
Your major difficulty seems to lie at the keyboard end of your equipment.
Is that really necessary? Further complicating things are these type of responses: "Varispeed might be old hat to a tape whirring round but in the digital domain it's a fairly new thing.
I don't consider almost twenty years as "relatively new". And it was in use in some digital recorders before that.
Where 'varispeed' comes into it's own for me is when I want to record a phrase which I'm not capable of playing at the required tempo so I can record it slower and then increase the tempo to fit.
Under that circumstance it would be necessary to either tune your instrument quite differently or play in a different key. So, to use your own example, if you wanted to play a "half-speed" Van Halen solo and bump it from 80 to 150 BPM you'd have to play the solo almost one full octave lower or tune the instrument down almost 12 semi-tones before recording (not likely...). Try tuning a guitar with a floating bridge down ONE semi-tone, it's a pain. Id like to know what program you use to do this and how you compensate exact tempo changes to exact tuning changes down to the cent. Please elaborate. Wait lets see, Mike
It's only recreational, but it has to be perfect.
In fact, Mike posted "I don't understand the need to quibble as if it's merely recreational. ". I'm not taking sides here but if this is the level of attention you give his posts...
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 03:09:09
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I haven't read all the replies so this may have already been said, then again I might completely have missed the point. I find many of th OPs points hard to follow, what with me being on a lower plane and all that but.... Doesn't this already exist just not in one button format? Convert audio to groove clips, set them to follow pitch and stretch to tempo. Change required tempo, insert pitch marker with required pitch at project start. Done. I've just changed a project like that and seems to achieve the desired result. Undoudtedly a one button option would be quicker it must have taken me nearly 15 seconds to do but a "one button" option would arguably have less control. I'm all for adding one though, more features the better. If I've missed the point sorry, I'll go back to sleep. EDIT: Then again perhaps a one button option would count as "Dumbing Down" so perhaps it's better off the way it is. I get confused easily. 
post edited by FastBikerBoy - 2012/09/16 04:39:58
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Anderton
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 04:31:55
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The quality difference it must be pointed out is not major as it still sounds great in Studio One even when transposed a fair way. Jeff, please excuse the lack of proper quoting...computer with non-supported browser. The difference is indeed not major, but when you start getting into situations where multiple strings are transposed up an octave, you can definitely hear the difference. As I don't use Sonar for live performance, I think the fidelity/time tradeoff is worth it, especially with something like a pseud-acoustic 12-string isolated in a track. I can actually pull that off in Sonar.
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Anderton
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 04:38:22
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I do think SToons comments about "varispeed" vs. "varispeed" are worth noting. With tape, varispeed did indeed change pitch and time, and digital systems have been able to do that for years by changing sample rate (ADAT's famous "use the varispeed to change from the 48kHz default to 44.1kHz" is a good example of that). The ability to change pitch and time simultaneously while retaining good audio quality is a more recent development, and something you couldn't do with tape.
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Jonbouy
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 07:02:15
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The ability to change pitch and time simultaneously while retaining good audio quality is a more recent development, and something you couldn't do with tape.
@SToons That is precisely what I'm talking about by 'varispeed' being a relatively new thing, and also answers the point of how it can differ from tape. And yes the ability to play something at 80 bpm to replay at 150 is something to behold, you ought to try it, you play it in exactly the same key and tuning, just like you would with a midi phrase, changing the tempo leaves it unaffected in every other aspect. You see 'varispeed' is one of those loose terms (similar to gapless audio) that means different things to different people. To some it means pitch shifting, to others time stretching to me it is the ability to alter tempo (speed) while retaining every other aspect as intended (as well as being able to alter pitch if necessary) and in real time. What is being discussed here is pitch shifting, not 'varispeed', pitch shifting has been available in Sonar to some degree or another for many years. It obviously is not something he does regularly as he'd have found one of the countless ways of successfully approaching it already. The complaint was to do with Sonar not providing pitch shifting capabilities, which it does, rather than providing real-time 'varispeed' which it doesn't. If you follow the OP to any extent you will have realised this was just a mal-constructed opportunity to knock Sonar yet again IMO. Any benefit of the doubt that I have previously had toward the OP evaporated long ago, again he wasn't interested in the many solutions offered that will work here, the thinly veiled point was to carry forward some idea the Sonar is lacking. He can do what he is describing here easily as has already been suggest by bouncing down a mix with the pitch slightly altered so that the out of tune hammered dulcimer 'massive' can track to it and then shift the pitch of the resultant track back to fit the main mix. It's purely a pitch shifting job and a trivial one at that. Better still tune the thing, or if you do a lot of hammered dulcimer get an 'in house' one and do it properly. Accelerando's and Ritardando's whilst available with midi scores are nigh impossible with audio without varispeed. That would be a better point to make if you wanted to cite Sonar's lack of varispeed. The tuning argument was a lame construct to launch such a transparent campaign the OP consisted of. Had Mike had asked the simple question of how to track a slightly sharp or flat instrument against concert pitched backing he'd have got many simple answers from people that would have solved his problem and he'd have realised that Sonar is not lacking in this ability. The simplest way of solving this for me would to be to record a midi guide for the guy to track to and knock the tuning of the VSTi used for that to suit the 'out of tune' instrument, then shift the stem into tune once it's been tracked. He also forgets to mention using a tape based solution wasn't without it's drawbacks either, like the tape shifting from it's azimuth when the speed is changed and the fact you'd either have to play slower or faster to compensate for the speed change to get the right pitch, altering the feel of playing the piece for the musician involved. But why ask for help when you can pretend to know it all and say the product you chose to use is flawed?
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/09/16 07:39:37
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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The Maillard Reaction
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*
post edited by Bash von Gitfiddle - 2018/10/04 22:57:06
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Jonbouy
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 07:44:12
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If you have Sound Forge installed I think you'll find you'll already have a DX version you can use in 32 bit Sonar already. Somebody has already kindly posted a freeware one for your benefit that will cover you here also. Either that as I said use a midi guide and detune the VSTi to match the errant instrument. Pitch shift it when you get it in the can. No diffident 'round tripping' nor 'varispeed' required, no added latency either. You'll probably find a reason why that is unworkable though to further your agenda. HTH Hey, I have an app. that does 'Varispeed' in it's true sense but I still use Sonar because it does many things the other app doesn't do as well. How about that? I don't do dulcimers I must admit but I have had outstanding success with an elastic band bass.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/09/16 07:53:08
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mrkite
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 07:52:17
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What you should do, Mike, is to bounce the whole mix to one track, apply the effect to that track, and then, while soloing the track or maybe after having created a completely new (temporary) project from the varispeed track, start recording your dulcimer or pan flute or whatever.
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 08:58:41
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I have the last good version of Adobe Audition 3 in Sonar's tool options. It does an excellent job with pitch raise/lower with very few artifacts. It allows me to maintain pitch and alter tempo or maintain tempo and alter pitch. It doesn't take long...about 10-15 seconds. Would I like to see something like this in Sonar? To be honest, I really don't have a need for it other than for learning a cover tune that may be tuned down a half step. I tune to 440 and like SToons, use a floating Floyd so retuning for me is really not an option.
I have the pitch option in Reaper and Studio One 2 and have rarely used it, so I'm on the fence about whether it's something *I* would like to see in Sonar. If the majority wants it though, by all means add it.
Not to stir up a hornets nest, but I have to ask you guys your opinion. What are your thoughts on this whole feature request thing? To me, I have always felt it was a way to shut us up. In all my years of putting in requests both as an individual as well as in groups of people, not once has anything I've ever asked for been implemented. It sincerely makes me feel:
A. We're listening but we don't agree
B. Sorry, we'd have to re-write the entire program for that
C. Give 'em the feature request thing to shut them up to make them feel they matter but don't implement anything unless it's mind-blowing
A & B are definites I'm sure. C is what I think the reality is though. Could you imagine how different Sonar would be if WE had the power to add our input since we are users and not sellers? We'd have a gapless audio engine, (I scream when the audio engine shuts down on me...I SOOO hate it!) better notation/staff view, colors and customization (I will still never forgive whoever that was that just decided to pull the plug and decide on that for us) vari-speed, better video capabilities and probably less plugins. The program makes the plugins, the plugins and plug capabilities don't make the program, ya know? Pro Channel and it's plugs are a welcomed addtition for me...but there are more important things I'd rather see done to Sonar that are necessities in my opinion.
-Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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LANEY
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 09:02:45
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Should be able to put it into Sonar. I was reading and article and they were talking about Roland varispeed available in R-mix(full version). And it works great!
i7/16GB ram Win 7 x64 SONAR Platinum Producer x64 VS-700 C&R Octa-Capture and VS-100 for live recording
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bvideo
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 10:31:32
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Real-time pitch shifting for tuning in a recording scenario was described here early in the thread. Prochannel variant was described as well (for X2).
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John
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 11:58:35
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Danny Danzi
I have the last good version of Adobe Audition 3 in Sonar's tool options. It does an excellent job with pitch raise/lower with very few artifacts. It allows me to maintain pitch and alter tempo or maintain tempo and alter pitch. It doesn't take long...about 10-15 seconds. Would I like to see something like this in Sonar? To be honest, I really don't have a need for it other than for learning a cover tune that may be tuned down a half step. I tune to 440 and like SToons, use a floating Floyd so retuning for me is really not an option.
I have the pitch option in Reaper and Studio One 2 and have rarely used it, so I'm on the fence about whether it's something *I* would like to see in Sonar. If the majority wants it though, by all means add it.
Not to stir up a hornets nest, but I have to ask you guys your opinion. What are your thoughts on this whole feature request thing? To me, I have always felt it was a way to shut us up. In all my years of putting in requests both as an individual as well as in groups of people, not once has anything I've ever asked for been implemented. It sincerely makes me feel:
A. We're listening but we don't agree
B. Sorry, we'd have to re-write the entire program for that
C. Give 'em the feature request thing to shut them up to make them feel they matter but don't implement anything unless it's mind-blowing
A & B are definites I'm sure. C is what I think the reality is though. Could you imagine how different Sonar would be if WE had the power to add our input since we are users and not sellers? We'd have a gapless audio engine, (I scream when the audio engine shuts down on me...I SOOO hate it!) better notation/staff view, colors and customization (I will still never forgive whoever that was that just decided to pull the plug and decide on that for us) vari-speed, better video capabilities and probably less plugins. The program makes the plugins, the plugins and plug capabilities don't make the program, ya know? Pro Channel and it's plugs are a welcomed addtition for me...but there are more important things I'd rather see done to Sonar that are necessities in my opinion.
-Danny
The first part of your post is where I am on this. I do support the feature because I stand by the notion that we as members should support our fellow members when ever we can in features that personally we may not have a need for but other members may. If it isn't going to hurt us we should be supportive. The second part is rather cynical and from my experience is inaccurate. I wanted MIDI meters and got them. On this request CW answered with that they did know how such a feature would work. None the less they were implemented. After I said how. I wanted better Mackie Control support and got it. This was some time ago when there was very poor MC support. In fact one had to use the generic surface to use an MC at all. I wanted what CW calls the inline PRV and got it. Susan G wanted a pause button and got it. I asked for the patch search dialog be fixed and it was. It was broken in 3 and fixed in 7. And many other requests. What is true is it takes time for CW to get around to these things. Given time they will address all of our wishes. I have also noticed that how one asks makes a difference. If we show consistency and brotherhood CW will take notice.
post edited by John - 2012/09/16 12:18:19
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SToons
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 12:14:17
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Jonbouy
The ability to change pitch and time simultaneously while retaining good audio quality is a more recent development, and something you couldn't do with tape.
@SToons
That is precisely what I'm talking about by 'varispeed' being a relatively new thing, and also answers the point of how it can differ from tape.
And yes the ability to play something at 80 bpm to replay at 150 is something to behold, you ought to try it, you play it in exactly the same key and tuning, just like you would with a midi phrase, changing the tempo leaves it unaffected in every other aspect.
First of all, listen to my music sometime...does it sound like I need to "artificially" speed anything up? Probably about as much as Danny Danzi does... I would not suggest doubling the speed of a recorded guitar would sound completely "unaffected" either. Next, you have illustrated my point perfectly. Mike made it crystal clear, in Post #1 what Varispeed was for the purposes of this discussion. I restated it. What you describe here is tempo-changing, time-shifting - there could be a few names to describe it - but it is not Varispeed. It is quite obvious who is serving a personal agenda here and it is not Mike. A perfect example is how "Varispeed" is whatever you want it to be which changes thruout this discussion. The complaint was to do with Sonar not providing pitch shifting capabilities
More nonsense. <snip> Many more quotes re-iterating what the OP did not need to hear again as evidenced in Post #1, further illustrating the cicrcular pattern derived from posting and posting without actually reading...(apparantly not even reading Post #1) If you can't take the time to read others' posts accurately I can't be bothered responding anymore. Toodles.
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jimkleban
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 12:32:30
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I have my own reasons to want a VARISPEED option in SONAR and have brought this topic up myself... to no avail.
But, if the bakers are watching... COUNT ME IN as one who would really appreciate this feature in Sonar.
Jim
The Lamb Laid Down on MIDI www.lldom.com Studio Cat Custom i7 with Thunderbolt (wonderful system built and configured by our own Jim R) Apollo Duo (via TB) UAD Quad UAD Duo WIN 8.1 x64 with 32 GB Ram 4 SSD for programs and sample libraries Splat (latest version)
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Jonbouy
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 12:37:05
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You see 'varispeed' is one of those loose terms (similar to gapless audio) that means different things to different people. To some it means pitch shifting, to others time stretching to me it is the ability to alter tempo (speed) while retaining every other aspect as intended (as well as being able to alter pitch if necessary) and in real time.
Read it again SToons as I swear it's you that's not paying attention. What Mike is talking about is shifting the pitch of the mix to suit an out of tune Dulcimer. He's then saying that it's the lack of 'Varispeed' is causing him difficulty. He's now been offered the idea of zPlane, some freeware, and Audition's pitch shifting capabilities as well as using a detuned midi guide to track to. The lack of 'Varispeed' doesn't seem to be the issue at all. Tape style varispeed is simply altering the pitch as a product of changing the speed (tempo). So varispeed implies at least changing, being able to vary the speed, preserving the pitch or changing the pitch are the options available these days. Pitch shifting here alters the pitch whilst keep the tempo intact, Mike is talking about pitch shifting here and using it to complain that Sonar doesn't have 'varispeed'. All he really needed do is ask how best to go about solving his problem, many of us do it daily without fuss or complaining that the software we bought is not up to snuff. btw I can't think of anyone that would want to speed up an audio passage by 70 bpm either but there you go it's possible. Also I'd like varispeed in Sonar too but not to tune an out of tune dulcimer, or conversly detuning a mix to suit it, I'd use pitch shifting for that.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/09/16 12:50:58
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 12:53:51
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John
Danny Danzi
I have the last good version of Adobe Audition 3 in Sonar's tool options. It does an excellent job with pitch raise/lower with very few artifacts. It allows me to maintain pitch and alter tempo or maintain tempo and alter pitch. It doesn't take long...about 10-15 seconds. Would I like to see something like this in Sonar? To be honest, I really don't have a need for it other than for learning a cover tune that may be tuned down a half step. I tune to 440 and like SToons, use a floating Floyd so retuning for me is really not an option.
I have the pitch option in Reaper and Studio One 2 and have rarely used it, so I'm on the fence about whether it's something *I* would like to see in Sonar. If the majority wants it though, by all means add it.
Not to stir up a hornets nest, but I have to ask you guys your opinion. What are your thoughts on this whole feature request thing? To me, I have always felt it was a way to shut us up. In all my years of putting in requests both as an individual as well as in groups of people, not once has anything I've ever asked for been implemented. It sincerely makes me feel:
A. We're listening but we don't agree
B. Sorry, we'd have to re-write the entire program for that
C. Give 'em the feature request thing to shut them up to make them feel they matter but don't implement anything unless it's mind-blowing
A & B are definites I'm sure. C is what I think the reality is though. Could you imagine how different Sonar would be if WE had the power to add our input since we are users and not sellers? We'd have a gapless audio engine, (I scream when the audio engine shuts down on me...I SOOO hate it!) better notation/staff view, colors and customization (I will still never forgive whoever that was that just decided to pull the plug and decide on that for us) vari-speed, better video capabilities and probably less plugins. The program makes the plugins, the plugins and plug capabilities don't make the program, ya know? Pro Channel and it's plugs are a welcomed addtition for me...but there are more important things I'd rather see done to Sonar that are necessities in my opinion.
-Danny
The first part of your post is where I am on this. I do support the feature because I stand by the notion that we as members should support our fellow members when ever we can in features that personally we may not have a need for but other members may. If it isn't going to hurt us we should be supportive.
The second part is rather cynical and from my experience is inaccurate.
I wanted MIDI meters and got them. On this request CW answered with that they did know how such a feature would work. None the less they were implemented. After I said how.
I wanted better Mackie Control support and got it. This was some time ago when there was very poor MC support. In fact one had to use the generic surface to use an MC at all.
I wanted what CW calls the inline PRV and got it.
Susan G wanted a pause button and got it.
I asked for the patch search dialog be fixed and it was. It was broken in 3 and fixed in 7.
And many other requests.
What is true is it takes time for CW to get around to these things. Given time they will address all of our wishes.
I have also noticed that how one asks makes a difference.
If we show consistency and brotherhood CW will take notice.
You're a lucky man John. :) I'd definitely boast about it if that were my experience. I know sometimes these things take time. But unfortunately, quite a few of my options (and even a few fixes) took more time than I was hoping for or never made it. I'm not bent about the options (other than colors and customization) really and of course have no problem asking nicely for a look at something. I guess part of me gets let down when I know several claim to be asking for something and well, it doesn't seem to get implemented or may take years. Heck bro, remember arm on the fly which was introduced in Sonar 6 I believe? I've been crying about getting that fixed since it came out. Quite a few users experienced a gap in audio when this was enabled. It just started working correctly for me on the last release of X1. I asked for that option for years with Cakewalk into Sonar and man, once it came, I couldn't use it. Stuff like that can definitely get to ya. Who knows...maybe "quite a few users" wasn't enough to fix it. I will say this though, I feel the current baker staff is probably the best ever in terms of listening, taking part and fighting for the things we may want/need. I just wish some of this stuff happened a little faster with us in mind instead of what a few staff individuals may THINK is the better option, ya know? I think we've cried about a gapless audio engine, better video tools, staff/notation, colors and options for quite a while. Some of those things have been "wants" for years. I think it's just as important to keep your current "re-up every year" customers happy as much as it is trying to gain new ones with assorted bells and whistles because you can always count on the old die-hards as a source of floating the company. It's like my recording business. I have customers that are every week, every month and every year. I don't want to lose them EVER as they are the ones that keep me alive if no additional business were to God forbid, not come in. That said, new customers that make suggestions to me are always welcome and I do my best to cater to their needs. I know it's way different than coding software and trying to keep a million people happy as opposed to the few hundred clients I have. But the same principal stands. Keep your main user base happy at all times because you can always count on them to put food on your table. Lose them and you have to hope that advertising takes up the slack and the new features sell the program. -Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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timidi
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 13:02:11
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After 3 pages, the wish for Varispeed may be taken seriously by Cakewalk and resources expended.
No doubt, if it worked, it may be another appreciated and useful tool.
However, Don't you guys want Cakewalk resources devoted to something a little more meaty?
Starting with maybe a gapless engine. Or, color customization. Or, 'insert your favorite here'.
There was a thread here recently that listed 1-4 of desired additions/fixes.
Which turned into another pissing contest.
I would suggest that whoever started that thread, continue with a new thread while keeping in mind the other wishes that had been brought up and list 20-30 or whatever. With the instructions to pick your top 3 and that any discussion about your choice or "his" choice would cause for your vote to be deleted.
BTW, my top pick (if available) would be to abandon the X series and go back to making Sonar 8.6 the best DAW.
Just a thought.
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John
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 13:21:33
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Danny Danzi
John
Danny Danzi
I have the last good version of Adobe Audition 3 in Sonar's tool options. It does an excellent job with pitch raise/lower with very few artifacts. It allows me to maintain pitch and alter tempo or maintain tempo and alter pitch. It doesn't take long...about 10-15 seconds. Would I like to see something like this in Sonar? To be honest, I really don't have a need for it other than for learning a cover tune that may be tuned down a half step. I tune to 440 and like SToons, use a floating Floyd so retuning for me is really not an option.
I have the pitch option in Reaper and Studio One 2 and have rarely used it, so I'm on the fence about whether it's something *I* would like to see in Sonar. If the majority wants it though, by all means add it.
Not to stir up a hornets nest, but I have to ask you guys your opinion. What are your thoughts on this whole feature request thing? To me, I have always felt it was a way to shut us up. In all my years of putting in requests both as an individual as well as in groups of people, not once has anything I've ever asked for been implemented. It sincerely makes me feel:
A. We're listening but we don't agree
B. Sorry, we'd have to re-write the entire program for that
C. Give 'em the feature request thing to shut them up to make them feel they matter but don't implement anything unless it's mind-blowing
A & B are definites I'm sure. C is what I think the reality is though. Could you imagine how different Sonar would be if WE had the power to add our input since we are users and not sellers? We'd have a gapless audio engine, (I scream when the audio engine shuts down on me...I SOOO hate it!) better notation/staff view, colors and customization (I will still never forgive whoever that was that just decided to pull the plug and decide on that for us) vari-speed, better video capabilities and probably less plugins. The program makes the plugins, the plugins and plug capabilities don't make the program, ya know? Pro Channel and it's plugs are a welcomed addtition for me...but there are more important things I'd rather see done to Sonar that are necessities in my opinion.
-Danny
The first part of your post is where I am on this. I do support the feature because I stand by the notion that we as members should support our fellow members when ever we can in features that personally we may not have a need for but other members may. If it isn't going to hurt us we should be supportive.
The second part is rather cynical and from my experience is inaccurate.
I wanted MIDI meters and got them. On this request CW answered with that they did know how such a feature would work. None the less they were implemented. After I said how.
I wanted better Mackie Control support and got it. This was some time ago when there was very poor MC support. In fact one had to use the generic surface to use an MC at all.
I wanted what CW calls the inline PRV and got it.
Susan G wanted a pause button and got it.
I asked for the patch search dialog be fixed and it was. It was broken in 3 and fixed in 7.
And many other requests.
What is true is it takes time for CW to get around to these things. Given time they will address all of our wishes.
I have also noticed that how one asks makes a difference.
If we show consistency and brotherhood CW will take notice.
You're a lucky man John. :) I'd definitely boast about it if that were my experience. I know sometimes these things take time. But unfortunately, quite a few of my options (and even a few fixes) took more time than I was hoping for or never made it. I'm not bent about the options (other than colors and customization) really and of course have no problem asking nicely for a look at something. I guess part of me gets let down when I know several claim to be asking for something and well, it doesn't seem to get implemented or may take years. Heck bro, remember arm on the fly which was introduced in Sonar 6 I believe? I've been crying about getting that fixed since it came out. Quite a few users experienced a gap in audio when this was enabled. It just started working correctly for me on the last release of X1. I asked for that option for years with Cakewalk into Sonar and man, once it came, I couldn't use it. Stuff like that can definitely get to ya. Who knows...maybe "quite a few users" wasn't enough to fix it.
I will say this though, I feel the current baker staff is probably the best ever in terms of listening, taking part and fighting for the things we may want/need. I just wish some of this stuff happened a little faster with us in mind instead of what a few staff individuals may THINK is the better option, ya know? I think we've cried about a gapless audio engine, better video tools, staff/notation, colors and options for quite a while. Some of those things have been "wants" for years. I think it's just as important to keep your current "re-up every year" customers happy as much as it is trying to gain new ones with assorted bells and whistles because you can always count on the old die-hards as a source of floating the company.
It's like my recording business. I have customers that are every week, every month and every year. I don't want to lose them EVER as they are the ones that keep me alive if no additional business were to God forbid, not come in. That said, new customers that make suggestions to me are always welcome and I do my best to cater to their needs. I know it's way different than coding software and trying to keep a million people happy as opposed to the few hundred clients I have. But the same principal stands. Keep your main user base happy at all times because you can always count on them to put food on your table. Lose them and you have to hope that advertising takes up the slack and the new features sell the program.
-Danny
I think we are in agreement. I didn't mean to sound as if I were bragging. And it took a lot of time to see these features become a reality. But the point was and is CW really does listen. On the features you listed above I think its a problem with the fundamental architecture of Sonar for many of those points being incorporated. Look at the notation issue for example. I have as have many pushed for improvements in this area from day one of Sonar 1. That is about 10 years or more of asking. Why hasn't it been done? I think it requires a major rewrite of the program code in order for it to come to pass. I see it as something CW would like to do but have from their viewpoint more pressing issues. The other thing is I believe CW needs this sort of feedback to come up with new features. Some things they do on their own but many ideas come directly from us. Than some things are easier to implement than others. When you mention color customization I think its the nature of how CW created Skylight with bit mapped elements that preclude an easy solution. But it can be done. We know this because Panup has demonstrated that it can. At any rate the points you mention may come to pass in time. Lets just hope so and support each other when ever we can. In my view Mike made a good case for varispeed. And Jonbouy did a good job of clarifying it. I don't see a real objection to the notion of adding varispeed to Sonar.
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bapu
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 13:30:13
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Jonbouy
I have had outstanding success with an elastic band bass. It's an Alembic, I keep telling you.
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 13:55:08
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bapu
Jonbouy
I have had outstanding success with an elastic band bass.
It's an Alembic, I keep telling you.
Pfft......... I have a Varilembic. It is tuned to the same pitch as a concert dulcimer. I can play it at any speed, so my DAW doesn't have to.
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bapu
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 13:57:29
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SteveStrummerUK
bapu
Jonbouy
I have had outstanding success with an elastic band bass.
It's an Alembic, I keep telling you.
Pfft.........
I have a Varilembic.
It is tuned to the same pitch as a concert dulcimer.
I can play it at any speed, so my DAW doesn't have to.
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 14:00:18
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bapu
SteveStrummerUK
bapu
Jonbouy
I have had outstanding success with an elastic band bass.
It's an Alembic, I keep telling you.
Pfft.........
I have a Varilembic.
It is tuned to the same pitch as a concert dulcimer.
I can play it at any speed, so my DAW doesn't have to.
Woot woot! A good ol' fashioned hoedown. Pass the Mountain Dew bay-beeeeeeee
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The Maillard Reaction
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*
post edited by Bash von Gitfiddle - 2018/10/04 22:57:23
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Jonbouy
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 14:08:35
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Well Mike did you work out this problem without needing a workaround?
You've been given plenty of solutions, any of them work for you or were you just ranting for the sake of it?
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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trimph1
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 14:14:14
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mmmm...if my dulcimer was out of tune with the rest of the arrangement I'd just leave it alone. Dissonance has its uses..... 
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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bapu
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 14:15:47
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trimph1
Bapu has its uses.....
Or does he?
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Crg
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/16 21:22:36
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Well, as usual it's all gotten rediculous. Varispeed on tape wasn't what it needed to be. Retuning shouldn't be an aspect of slowing down a set of sonic waves in context to pitch. What it says is, you are dragging across a physical media with only so many deminsions in the code impressed upon it. Ever use the Scrub tool? It's an example of Varispeed and the effects of that variance on digital units. Everyone is talking about variances in the range of semitones-octaves-tempos. But what is perception resolution of the DAW? 24 bit? 1056 bit? In order to slow down and maintain event pitch and tuning, you would have to rewrite the digital instructions on a sound imprint-recording to include increments that weren't there in the original. Because, the tempo and timing and duration of every digital message-event recorded in a track-sound impression has a place in the time and code of the digital recording. So how do you tell a huge list of digital instructions to happen at a different rate? It's over my head.
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evansmalley
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/17 12:24:51
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I SURE agree with you guys that Vari-PITCH- (you had to do it with tape SPEED in the old days) is an essential tool for recording/overdubbing real instruments in the studio. I mostly record clients and groups- in the studio- by the hour, for money... there is nothing easier and faster than just one-slider tuning the song to any instrument that walks through the door!
More especially, the instruments that you just can't easily tune- like Hammond organs, REAL grand pianos, Fender Rhodes, nasty old Clavi's, pipe organs, pump organs, harps, accordions, harmonicas, zithers, melodicas, harpsichords, tubular bells, ethnic drums, 12-strings, sitars, xylophones, native american wood flutes, bagpipes, autoharps, bowed psaltries, pan flutes, Farfisas, dumb little toy keyboards... dang- it's a long list of coolness! Synthetic emulations of these instruments are great- but there's absolutely no comparison to the real thing for cool.
It's SOOO much easier to be a creative and excellent Recording Studio if you can just one-slider-tune the song to a fun, unusual overdub! I collect odd acoustic instruments from all over the world, and part of the cool vibe of my studio is that there's hundreds of strange and interesting noise toys hanging all over the walls. People love trying the strange thangs...
Sure miss Vari-Pitch.
Win7 Pro 64 bit sp1, i7-960 Intel processor, 8 gig RAM, SSD 64gig boot drive, Samsung F3 1TB D drive, nVidia Quadro 600 video card, Gigabyte X58A mobo, LG Blu-ray drive, 500 Gig E, F Drives, dual-monitors: 26" each, 2 X Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 ASIO hardware I/O's, Tascam US-428 control surface, Sonar 8.5.3 and X1 Producer, Avid Media Composer 5.0.4, Vintage 42-input Amek console, much outboard analog audio gear, acoustic world instruments, and noise toys!
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FogAudio
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/17 12:48:14
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Hey Mike, Have you looked for a simple pitch-shifting plugin that could be placed on the mix output (or whatever monitor channels you would have going out to the musician)? Assume you want something where you are only doing minor adjustments (possibly 50 cents or less) to the pitch so don't need to preserve formants or enharmonic timbre exactly. I guess this would be solution "A.1)" but seems fairly trivial to setup. You would simultaneously track (or process post recording) with the same plugin on your input of the non-standard instrument but with a complementary pitch adjustment. That said, this should be easy enough that it would be a cool feature to Sonar X2. Regards, Ryan
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stevec
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed.
2012/09/17 12:49:35
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So.... Is it only pitch that Mike was after? True tape varispeed would also affect tempo, but maybe that doesn't matter much in Mike's example (only slight tuning variations). For cases where the pitch is a few semi-tones lower, I wonder if the tempo reduction would also affect the feel...
For parts that are difficult to play a full tempo, true tape varispeed wouldn't work so well since the pitch is also affected.
All this makes me wonder if three pages worth of posts are actually requesting three unique variations after all.
SteveC https://soundcloud.com/steve-cocchi http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=39163 SONAR Platinum x64, Intel Q9300 (2.5Ghz), Asus P5N-D, Win7 x64 SP1, 8GB RAM, 1TB internal + ESATA + USB Backup HDDs, ATI Radeon HD5450 1GB RAM + dual ViewSonic VA2431wm Monitors; Focusrite 18i6 (ASIO); Komplete 9, Melodyne Studio 4, Ozone 7 Advanced, Rapture Pro, GPO5, Valhalla Plate, MJUC comp, MDynamic EQ, lots of other freebie VST plugins, synths and Kontakt libraries
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