gswitz
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Roland GR20 Midi output
Ok, I'm still a midi newbie. I mean, I play the keyboard thing sometimes, but that's a now brainer. It always works as I expect in Sonar.
I have a Roland GR-20 guitar midi thingy... when I play through the amp or take the analog outs, the hammer-ons and pulls offs sound as you'd expect. but the midi that gets saved in Sonar doesn't. I don't know why. I'm sure some event is being handled by the GR20 that isn't interpreted the same way in Sonar? not sure.
I'm guessing I should poke around in the midi file and look for the events to see where the hammer on happens and why the Roland GR20 synth performs it correctly but the midi output doesn't.
Thoughts?
I tried playing with sensitivity and stuff, but it doesn't really help me. when I use it through my amp, I like it pretty sensitive 7-8 or so out of 10.
I can use it as a bass through Sonar... that's ok. it's when I'm playing speedy bluegrass licks that the gr20 handles it but the midi file doesn't (?) or ... not really sure... the GR20 synth sounds right, but it isn't matched at all by what's coming out of dim pro.
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Marcus Curtis
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Re:Roland GR20 Midi output
2012/09/15 21:11:35
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I could never get the midi in the GR-20 to work right with Sonar. I also have the GR-33. It has the same issues and it is even worse. Those old guitar synths have the old fashion midi conectors. For some reason they are a pain and they don't even work right. The new roland GR-55 addresses this issue. It works as a midi controller. It plugs in via USB. Even though it does this the GR-55 won't act as a sound modual. It is a midi controller only. I purchased something called the You Rock Guitar. It can act as a midi controller inside many DAWs. it works great with Sonar. It is a sad thing when a cheap $150.00 midi controller works better then the those old expensive Roland guitar synths. Check out the You Rock Controller http://www.yourockguitar.com/ http://www.yourockguitar.com/video/user-videos If by chance you do get it to work right let me know what you did. I tried everything I could think of.
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gswitz
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Re:Roland GR20 Midi output
2012/09/15 21:13:20
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We need a 'play it like the gr20 button' in sonar.
:-)
Looking at the midi... it looks like when I hammer on
the old note keeps ringing and the new one too
since the synth builds in volume over time
all you hear is the first one
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Marcus Curtis
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Re:Roland GR20 Midi output
2012/09/15 21:20:03
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Yes for some reason the tracking in Sonar is really bad. This is an issue with the GR-20. It is not a Sonar issue. I got a lot of ghost notes too. Maybe roland came out with a patch or a firmware update. I have not checked in a really long time.
http://www.marcuscurtismusic.com/ Windows 10 ultimate, Sonar Platinum, AMD Phenom 2 x6 1075T processor 3.00 GHz, (6 cores) 8 gigs of Ram, Audio interfaces=VS-100, Pod X3 live pro, Boss GT-100, Boss GP10 Midi Controllers=Edirol PCR 800, roland GR-55. Ozone 7, Podfarm, Th2 Full Version, Melda, True Pianos Full Version, and a whole bunch of free VST plugins which can be found through my site.
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gswitz
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Re:Roland GR20 Midi output
2012/09/15 21:45:30
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I actually love the ghost notes. It teaches me to play more carefully. I really think it has helped my guitar playing to be aware of how often they happen and to struggle to only let notes I intend ring.
I think this is really a learning curve for me since the Synths do what they are designed to. But I think it would be handy to have a collection of synth settings that are for guitar based midi. I would definitely use it.
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gswitz
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Re:Roland GR20 Midi output
2012/09/15 22:03:07
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M_Glenn_M
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Re:Roland GR20 Midi output
2012/09/15 23:47:31
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I also have the GR20 and could not get it to input to MIDI.
I thought it was the cheapo midi interface so I took it back and gave up.
Sorry to hear it's a lost cause.
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tacman7
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Re:Roland GR20 Midi output
2012/09/16 11:09:58
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I used to have a GR33 but now have an ax-50.
Roland could never create midi that could be played on another synth.
If you record the midi as you play and send it back to the GR33 it will sound exactly like you played it. So your DAW can record the midi correctly but the devices don't respond in the same way. Like the 33 would send out a C but it would be pitch bent up a whole step when it should be just written as a D.
Different synths have different amounts for the amount of bend (I forgot what that's called) so like on a keyboard when you move the pitch wheel all the way up, on some synths that would be 2 half steps and on some it would be 4, 6, 12,24.
The AX stuff puts out midi that can be used on most synths with some adjustments, not perfect but a lot more usable.
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M_Glenn_M
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Re:Roland GR20 Midi output
2012/09/16 11:32:55
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So, with the GR20, can we play, say a horn, as an audio track into Sonar and convert to MIDI there?
Then we would be able to change to another horn?
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tacman7
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Re:Roland GR20 Midi output
2012/09/16 12:23:01
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M_Glenn_M
So, with the GR20, can we play, say a horn, as an audio track into Sonar and convert to MIDI there?
Then we would be able to change to another horn?
I guess you could. What's the purpose of it being midi? I always leave it in midi as long as possible and so you would have the GR20 as the synth the midi track uses to sound. You need an interface with enough I/0 to leave it plugged in. Midi is easier to change than audio but audiosnap has brought audio a lot closer to midi.
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M_Glenn_M
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Re:Roland GR20 Midi output
2012/09/16 15:57:02
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Assuming I can't get midi into Sonar with my GR20, I'd be stuck with the GR20 sounds unless I could convert them to midi from audio.
If I can convert, I assumed I would be able to use any horn samples out there?
If it doesn't do a decent job or is more trouble than it's worth I'd forget it and go the keyboard route tho I'm not a keyboard player.
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Marcus Curtis
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Re:Roland GR20 Midi output
2012/09/16 17:24:57
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M_Glenn_M
Assuming I can't get midi into Sonar with my GR20, I'd be stuck with the GR20 sounds unless I could convert them to midi from audio.
If I can convert, I assumed I would be able to use any horn samples out there?
If it doesn't do a decent job or is more trouble than it's worth I'd forget it and go the keyboard route tho I'm not a keyboard player.
That is what I did. From what I read Roland's newest guitar synth (GR-55) does not have the issues the gr 20 has. The GR-55 is also designed to be a midi controller to boot. The only problem is I don't have an extra 800.00 sitting around so I got to save up to get it. I already spent a portion of my music budget this year on upgrades. I am stuck with my feeble keyboard skills until I can resolve this.
http://www.marcuscurtismusic.com/ Windows 10 ultimate, Sonar Platinum, AMD Phenom 2 x6 1075T processor 3.00 GHz, (6 cores) 8 gigs of Ram, Audio interfaces=VS-100, Pod X3 live pro, Boss GT-100, Boss GP10 Midi Controllers=Edirol PCR 800, roland GR-55. Ozone 7, Podfarm, Th2 Full Version, Melda, True Pianos Full Version, and a whole bunch of free VST plugins which can be found through my site.
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gswitz
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Re:Roland GR20 Midi output
2012/09/16 18:12:11
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I'm not sure I'm communicating clearly. I love my GR20. It's tons of fun!
My point is this...
If I play my GR20 and use my GR20 to generate the synth sound, it sounds how I'm used to it.
The midi through a synth in Sonar sounds way different and isn't as useful to me.
I'm interested to try re-routing the midi back through the GR20 to see if it plays the same using the midi feed recorded in Sonar as it did the first time.
Anyway... I love my GR20. I'm not complaining. I'm learning. I'm not the fastest learner b/c I've been using both Cakewalk and the GR20 for more than 6 years or so. But I do love it.
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M_Glenn_M
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Re:Roland GR20 Midi output
2012/09/16 19:35:39
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I agree I love the GR20 too. Once I set it up it responds great.
It took some time but I've learned to emulate the techniques of several instruments so it sounds closer to the real thing.. (EG harmonica, pianos, horns)
Producer Exp x1d Win XP, intel Core2 Duo CPU E4600 @ 2.4 GHz, 2 GHz RAM Nvidia gforce 8500 GT BR800 controller , DR880 drum machine. GR20 guitar synth, Alesis QX25 KRK 6 + 10" sub. Sennheiser HD280pro cans 2 Yamaki acoustics, Korean Strat, 60's Jazzmaster, 60's BF Deluxe Reverb,
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tacman7
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Re:Roland GR20 Midi output
2012/09/17 11:17:07
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gswitz
I'm not sure I'm communicating clearly. I love my GR20. It's tons of fun!
My point is this...
If I play my GR20 and use my GR20 to generate the synth sound, it sounds how I'm used to it.
The midi through a synth in Sonar sounds way different and isn't as useful to me.
I'm interested to try re-routing the midi back through the GR20 to see if it plays the same using the midi feed recorded in Sonar as it did the first time.
Anyway... I love my GR20. I'm not complaining. I'm learning. I'm not the fastest learner b/c I've been using both Cakewalk and the GR20 for more than 6 years or so. But I do love it.
Well that should be possible. What's it doing when you record the midi and send it back to the GR20? That's how I used the GR33 and it worked perfect. You have to set your midi channel to omni or any midi input so it will record all 6 midi channels which is what the unit needs. There must be a filter stopping messages or something... Or do you have a really cheap midi interface? Or is that usb? I have better luck with legacy midi if you have that available. You can edit the midi too. I used to extend notes. Like if you have a solo and then end with a pull up to a pitch but you don't hold it that long, you can copy and past the pitch bend data and just drag the note longer to make a lot more sustain. Become an amazing guitar player with your mouse.
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cecelius2
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Re:Roland GR20 Midi output
2012/09/17 16:38:50
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M_Glenn_M
I agree I love the GR20 too. Once I set it up it responds great.
It took some time but I've learned to emulate the techniques of several instruments so it sounds closer to the real thing.. (EG harmonica, pianos, horns)
I own both the GR20 and two AXON 100mk2's. With both brands I had to fine tune them and then it took years of playing to develop a much cleaner, almost piano style. Remeber these thing pick up the "transients" and so it helps to use a pick, or your finger nails. Oddly, my GR20 works much better with my nylon string Godin Multiac synth access guitar, but it does not track as well with my Godin LGXSA midi guitar that has steel/nickel strings. For steel string midi guitar, I use the Axons. Axon is probably the industry standard and tracks excellently; you don't get too many ghost notes with it, at least not when you get proficient at midi guitar technique. Pat Metheny uses Axon live, or at least he did for years and when I heard him live I never heard ghost notes. Oddly, the Axon does not track as well with my nylon midi guitar even after years of setting it up; that is why I have the GR20---for nylon midi guitar. Go figure. But that is why I own/use both GR20 and AXON midi controllers. My advice for midi guitar players, is to think/play like a pianist, play a clean attack, use a pick or finger nails, and get excessively clean in your technique. M_Gleen_M. I agree with you in that once you develop a clean technique, you start to emulate the techniques of the instruments that you are setting for synth sounds. I play a trombone different than a B3. Although I think this is more phrasing than technique.
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SToons
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Re:Roland GR20 Midi output
2012/09/18 00:59:14
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gswitz
Ok, I'm still a midi newbie. I mean, I play the keyboard thing sometimes, but that's a now brainer. It always works as I expect in Sonar.
I have a Roland GR-20 guitar midi thingy... when I play through the amp or take the analog outs, the hammer-ons and pulls offs sound as you'd expect. but the midi that gets saved in Sonar doesn't. I don't know why. I'm sure some event is being handled by the GR20 that isn't interpreted the same way in Sonar? not sure.
I'm guessing I should poke around in the midi file and look for the events to see where the hammer on happens and why the Roland GR20 synth performs it correctly but the midi output doesn't.
Thoughts?
The Roland guitar synths work in a manner that when the "divided" pickup signal reaches the unit it is essentially hard-wired directly to the synth. That's why the tracking is so good, it never goes thru the step of being translated into MIDI data. When you connect it to an external device via MIDI out then the data has to be translated into MIDI which takes further processing and isn't completely accurate. If you connect to an external sound source via MIDI, such as a VSTi in Sonar or another external synth module, you'll experience a larger latency and more "glitches". In short, this is a by-product of the Roland synth converting the data to MIDI before sending it to the MIDI out, it is not a Sonar issue. This is the drawback with most guitar synths over the years, it is the translation into MIDI that causes the issues, they work far better with the internal sound source where the data never has to be converted to MIDI. If you use "Select by Filter" you can often get rid of the majority of the glitches but sometime you have to tweak it in an editor (PRView or Event List work well). Look for notes of very short duration and or velocity. Also check for "doubled" notes where it will seem the note triggers twice at once, sometimes just a few ticks apart.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re:Roland GR20 Midi output
2012/09/18 08:04:51
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Exactly. Most guitar synths connect to the guitar via an analog interface not MIDI so they can do optimized pitch detection and trigger their internal synths much better than via MIDI. Roland synths have always operated this way. If you play a part into the synth, there is no way its going to sound identical if you capture your performance as MIDI and then send that MIDI back to the same device for playback. You will likely get timing errors or false triggers. Though this has improved over the years its still an issue. Triggering soft synths via a MIDI guitar controller is also prone to similar errors. There is no way around adapting to the quirks of the interface and learning how to play around it.
I used to play a lot of MIDI guitar stuff 20 years ago, but hardly anymore though I do have a Roland GI-20. It has reasonably good MIDI output provided you set up the sensitivities right, and play with a light touch. Its still a crap shoot though - there is no way you can expect a perfect MIDI performance of what you play without some post processing work.
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pbognar
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Re:Roland GR20 Midi output
2012/09/18 10:09:48
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk
]
Exactly. Most guitar synths connect to the guitar via an analog interface not MIDI so they can do optimized pitch detection and trigger their internal synths much better than via MIDI. Roland synths have always operated this way. If you play a part into the synth, there is no way its going to sound identical if you capture your performance as MIDI and then send that MIDI back to the same device for playback. You will likely get timing errors or false triggers. Though this has improved over the years its still an issue. Triggering soft synths via a MIDI guitar controller is also prone to similar errors. There is no way around adapting to the quirks of the interface and learning how to play around it.
I used to play a lot of MIDI guitar stuff 20 years ago, but hardly anymore though I do have a Roland GI-20. It has reasonably good MIDI output provided you set up the sensitivities right, and play with a light touch. Its still a crap shoot though - there is no way you can expect a perfect MIDI performance of what you play without some post processing work.
Do you think the GR-33 / GR-55 output MIDI at least as well as the GI-20, or do you feel the GI-20 was optimized for MIDI output?
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tacman7
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Re:Roland GR20 Midi output
2012/09/18 10:25:39
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This wasn't my experience with the GR33 and it had no analog connection, only the GK2.
I know the 99 and those kind of things use both analog and GK.
It sounded exactly like I played it when I sent the midi back.
May be I don't play the kind of stuff that shows up problems.
Yes it took a long time for me to develop a playing style for midi guitar.
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Integra2112
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Re:Roland GR20 Midi output
2012/09/18 22:08:42
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The GK Pickups are 'analog'. They are made up of mini humbucker pickups.
Roland Guitar synths have ALWAYS performed much better triggering 'internal' sounds as opposed to external synths via Midi.
The now defunct Axon units (out of business) were much better at triggering external synths as they used a very different means for converting pitch to midi.
The upcoming Fishman Triple Play will probably be a groundbreaker. Its designed by the guy who did the Axon units. Wirelss Midi Converter for $300.
Ive owned the Gr30, gr33, vg99, and gr55. Out of all these the gr55 performs 'best' of the Roland units when it comes to external triggering. Its still not great however, and as others have mentioned, you need to adjust your technique and I recommend using the Midi Filters included in Sonar. Theres one especially helpoful for Midi Guitar:
Process>Deglitch
This makes it incredbly easy to filter out the little transient blips and blaps you get with Midi Guitar. Try it, it helps alot!
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gswitz
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Re:Roland GR20 Midi output
2012/09/18 23:26:34
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mudgel
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Re:Roland GR20 Midi output
2012/09/18 23:45:24
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I've retro-fitted an old Japanese Profile Strat with the Graphtec Ghost system with a 13 pin cable into an Axon 100 mk II and it's by far the best MIDI guitar setup I've ever used.
Still plays and sounds like a Strat with acoustic as well as MIDI access to any synth.
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