Mbox vs. Good Preamp

I am considering purchasing an Mbox because it has real good preamps.
It only costs $500.00 which is not much considering it is a good preamp and a digital converter.

My only question is would I be better of just investing the same $500.00 in a preamp?
Can I get a preamp as good (or better) than the Mbox's for $500.00 ?

I've already got a sound card (MAudio AP-192) so I don't particularly need that aspect of the Mbox.

Of course someone will argue with me but, I'd say you can get a much better pre. Focusrite has the platinum pro and the Joe Meek qs6 is also good. Now I did up the ante to $750 but with some shopping you can do better. I'm looking at a UA 6176 , so far best I've found is about a grand on price for that. I just bought a Grace 101 which I paid $550 for. I like it, but it is like almost too clean. I have a Presonus Eureka I paid $440 for that is a good all around pre. I also have my assortment of lower line Presonus pres, The Bluetube , Digimax and TubePre. I have not seen a Art pre I like, but I'm sure someone will disagree on that. Green River ME-1NV, which would set you back about $1400 is highly reguarded. You are probabaly thinking why does this idiot have so many pre's or does this guy have a sexual hangup about preamps. Well no on both accounts. Pres are like good guitars. they are all different. They all have personalitys and color your sound in different ways. Like a pre can suck for vocals, but be great for bass guitar and so on.. Now your converters at least IMHO should be as transparent as possible, no color WYSIWYG kind of thing. I use a Emu 1820m audio system and I just wish the audio drivers were as good as the converters, then it would be the ultimate system. Now the Mbox factory bundle seems to be a good starter in that direction as you get the Joe Meek SC2 and VC5 with it. I have one of those Joe Meek 3q pre and it was $175 well spent as I really like it for guitar. I would spend my money on preamps is what I'm trying to say. Just my 2 cents................JDW

ORIGINAL: wkeever

I am considering purchasing an Mbox because it has real good preamps.
It only costs $500.00 which is not much considering it is a good preamp and a digital converter.

My only question is would I be better of just investing the same $500.00 in a preamp?
Can I get a preamp as good (or better) than the Mbox's for $500.00 ?

I've already got a sound card (MAudio AP-192) so I don't particularly need that aspect of the Mbox.

I wouldn't if I were you. The M-Box will be on e-bay in less then a year.. you might keep a good preamp for the rest of your life. Seems like a better use of money to me. I don't mind spending the extra money to get good converters in a sound card even if I have to replace the card in a year or two but a preamp is somthing I want to keep in my collection.

Unless you are planning to use ProTools LE, you would be better off to go with something else.

We have PT6.7LE with the Mbox, but we feed the outs of our Neve and TL Audio pres into the Mbox, bypassing their pres altogether.

OTOH..... I have heard that the Focusrite pres in the Mbox are better sounding than those in the 002 and 002R. I have not tracked anything using the Mbox pres because of the other highend ones that I mentioned above.

Hope this helps.

[Edited typo]

I have actually tracked acoustic guitar with an Mbox before.
It sounded great. I haven't tried vox though.

I agree that it would probably be better money spent to buy a good preamp.
What I need is just an all around good preamp. The only thing I record is acoustic guitar, vocals, and electric bass.

What preamp in the $500.00 range would have really clear warm sound for those types of uses ? I really can only afford one for now, so I want one that will sound good allaround.
(when I say all-around, I don't need it to sound good on electric guitar, because I won't be tracking any electric guitar).

Which one of these two would be better for my application. (clean vox, acoustic guitar, electric bass) ?

Grace 101

Presonus Eureka

Think about the FNR Really Nice Preamp too. I haven't actually worked with it, but there are tons of audio pros whom I respect who rave about it.

ORIGINAL: wkeever

Which one of these two would be better for my application. (clean vox, acoustic guitar, electric bass) ?

Grace 101

Presonus Eureka

I have not used the Eureka but I have the Grace 101 and it's fantastic for vox and acoustic. It's also the best direct box I've ever used for electric bass. I didn't even know my bass sounded that good. The HiZ input on the front of the Grace puts so little load on the pickup you get lots of sustain. I don't even need a compressor for bass anymore. If there is a hot or weak note or two I just use the clip gain in Sonar to fix them but for the most part the bass line is right on.

wkeever,I own both, thats a hard desision. The grace is the better pre>But the Presonus does alot more> Were you gonna but a outboard compressor and parametric in the near future? If so, get the Grace hands down. If you want it all in one unit, the Eureka is your baby. The Eurika is IMHO a great pre. If I could only have one and no other boxs the Eurika would be it. BUT I love the sound of my Taylor and fisman going into that Grace, it is like a clear mountain spring. But you kmow how recording acoustic is, you get unwanted artifacts like fret farts, the clic of the pick and the sound of your fingers sliding on the strings. Sometimes you eant those things, sometimes you don't, compression clears them up real nice. It's how I do it anthow. And unless you have a very balanced acoustic guitar signal, the para will be neccasary also and vocals is whole different ballgame. So to me thats the root of the decision, do you need everything in one box or not at this time. I'm a guitar player mainly and have been for almost 40 years, personally I like some real sound when I record, not raw and treated later. I do that also, but sometimes and I like to keep my guitar sound just as i played it. To me its more real and my personality comes through better. Well just my HO and the reasons I look at that way.......................JDW

Yeah, what everyone else said..

I wouldn't even think of purchasing an M-Box just to get a decent pair of preamps.
There are so many better options in the $500 price range.

FMR's RNP.

Or a pair of the Studio Projects VTB-1's would be my logical choice:

http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/vtb1.html

Stich

This is a scratch guitar track (with a few goofs) using an FMR RNP.

Taylor 710->AT4047->FMR Audio Preamp->1010lt

I pointed the mike near the 12th fret about a 1 ft away .

The left channel is the AT4047 with the full EQ of the mike (i.e. no bass roll off)
The right channel is the AT4047 with the bass roll off on.

Darryl

p.s. If you listen closely then you can hear my 7 year old open the door to my home studio twice. ;-)

DarrylCoy,

Nice! What did the RNP replace, and how do the two compare?

Nice! What did the RNP replace, and how do the two compare?

joe b,

Thank you. The RNP replaced the on-board preamp on the Delta1010lt. The 1010lt onboard preamp is pretty bad.

My SM57 sounds pretty good thru the RNP too.

Darryl

I have not used the Eureka but I have the Grace 101 and it's fantastic for vox and acoustic. It's also the best direct box I've ever used for electric bass.

Well I want the best sound I can get for acoustic and vox and bass, so that sounds like exactly what I'm looking for, and I can't believe I can get it for under $1,000

The grace is the better pre>But the Presonus does alot more> Were you gonna but a outboard compressor and parametric in the near future? If so, get the Grace hands down.

I already own a dbx 166XL which does compression, gate and limiter. I don't own an outboard PEQ, but I don't know if I really need one right now.

BUT I love the sound of my Taylor and fisman going into that Grace,

I also play a Taylor 710ce (the older one with the Fishman pickup). Greatest acoustic guitar in the world.

Yeah, what everyone else said..

I wouldn't even think of purchasing an M-Box just to get a decent pair of preamps.
There are so many better options in the $500 price range.

That is exactly what I wanted to know. Thanks.

This is a scratch guitar track (with a few goofs) using an FMR RNP.

Taylor 710->AT4047->FMR Audio Preamp->1010lt

I pointed the mike near the 12th fret about a 1 ft away .

The left channel is the AT4047 with the full EQ of the mike (i.e. no bass roll off)
The right channel is the AT4047 with the bass roll off on.

That sounds great. I usually plug my Taylor into a cheap direct box and then into my preamp (dbx Mini-Pre is what I'm currently using) and I get descent sound, but nowhere near as good as that recording you posted. I've been told I would get better sound if I mic'd my guitar, but I don't own a really nice condensor mic. All I own is several SM-58's and an AKG C1000S. I have tried mic'ing before with the SM-58 and with the C1000S and got a worse sound than when I used my guitar's pickups. Is this because of the cheap preamp I'm using or some other reason?

By the way, I have pretty much decided to go with the Grace 101.
Thanks for all the help and recommendations.

The AKG C1000 into a Grace should give you decent results, if you experiment with mic placement.

The AKG C1000 into a Grace should give you decent results, if you experiment with mic placement.

Cool, I'll definitely give it a try since I already own that mic. I guess I'll end up unloading some cash on a descent condensor mic one of these days, but I think I need the preamp worse right now than the mic.

It's also the best direct box I've ever used for electric bass.

I have another question. What is the difference between a direct box and a preamp?

Wayne....

Groove Tubes has a product called "The Brick". It is a mic and instrument tube preamp. It has onboard phantom power for condensers. GC sells them for $399. And I did see one on eBay for a Buy It Now price of $299 the other day.

You can check it out here.

BTW.... This unit is very portable as well, so you can use it for a live rig, as well as for studio sessions.

Hope this helps.

ORIGINAL: wkeever

The AKG C1000 into a Grace should give you decent results, if you experiment with mic placement.

Cool, I'll definitely give it a try since I already own that mic. I guess I'll end up unloading some cash on a descent condensor mic one of these days, but I think I need the preamp worse right now than the mic.

It's also the best direct box I've ever used for electric bass.

I have another question. What is the difference between a direct box and a preamp?

A passive direct box just compensates for the impedence on each side with a transformer or circuit. Not for a big change in signal level. An active direct box might have a little boost but not much. A preamp that has a high impedence input like the Grace 101 can act as both. It has a low impedence input in the back for a pro microphone and a high impedence input in the front for electric guitars, vintage microphone like a high-z ribbon, or other high-z source. It's a very nice feature that some high end preamps have, others just have the low-z pro mic input so you would need an external direct box to connect a guitar into it. The high-z input on the front of the Grace is like having the worlds best active direct box connected right in to the preamp. Real value for the money. Summit, Groove Tube, Millennia and others do this too on some models.

A passive direct box just compensates for the impedence on each side with a transformer or circuit. Not for a big change in signal level. An active direct box might have a little boost but not much. A preamp that has a high impedence input like the Grace 101 can act as both. It has a low impedence input in the back for a pro microphone and a high impedence input in the front for electric guitars, vintage microphone like a high-z ribbon, or other high-z source. It's a very nice feature that some high end preamps have, others just have the low-z pro mic input so you would need an external direct box to connect a guitar into it. The high-z input on the front of the Grace is like having the worlds best active direct box connected right in to the preamp. Real value for the money. Summit, Groove Tube, Millennia and others do this too on some models.

So a direct box, steps down a hot signal like an electric guitar, and a preamp steps up a weak signal like a microphone. And the Grace 101 does both.

Cool, thanks for the info.

ORIGINAL: wkeever

A passive direct box just compensates for the impedence on each side with a transformer or circuit. Not for a big change in signal level. An active direct box might have a little boost but not much. A preamp that has a high impedence input like the Grace 101 can act as both. It has a low impedence input in the back for a pro microphone and a high impedence input in the front for electric guitars, vintage microphone like a high-z ribbon, or other high-z source. It's a very nice feature that some high end preamps have, others just have the low-z pro mic input so you would need an external direct box to connect a guitar into it. The high-z input on the front of the Grace is like having the worlds best active direct box connected right in to the preamp. Real value for the money. Summit, Groove Tube, Millennia and others do this too on some models.

So a direct box, steps down a hot signal like an electric guitar, and a preamp steps up a weak signal like a microphone. And the Grace 101 does both.

Cool, thanks for the info.

No, the signal from a guitar is not hot. It requires a preamp also just not as much as a microphone. A direct box just conditions the high impedence guitar pickup signal so it can be connected to a preamp. In most cases a direct box connects to the mic preamp input on a mixer not the line in. But yes, the Grace does both. In addition to the low impedence input for a microphone that you would expect, it has a very high quality high impedence input also. It can be used for guitar, bass, vintage microphone, anything that needs a high impedence input.

Now if you are talking about using the speaker out of an amp there is a completely different device that will step down that "hot" signal so it can be used as a line out for recording. The Grace does NOT do that. Please don't plug an amp head into the Grace.

No, the signal from a guitar is not hot. It requires a preamp also just not as much as a microphone. A direct box just conditions the high impedence guitar pickup signal so it can be connected to a preamp. In most cases a direct box connects to the mic preamp input on a mixer not the line in. But yes, the Grace does both. In addition to the low impedence input for a microphone that you would expect, it has a very high quality high impedence input also. It can be used for guitar, bass, vintage microphone, anything that needs a high impedence input.

Now if you are talking about using the speaker out of an amp there is a completely different device that will step down that "hot" signal so it can be used as a line out for recording. The Grace does NOT do that. Please don't plug an amp head into the Grace.

Huh. I wonder what the circuit consists of in a direct box.
I wasn't about to plug an amp into the Grace. lol
I know enough to not do that. (just barely enough though)

I am an electrician by trade so I always want to understand how all these gadgets
work. I can't help it.

I know impedance is the combined resistances of a circuit. So if the impedance of an electric guitar's pickup circuit was high, then the current flow would be low and the voltage would be high. I'm guessing that a direct box is nothing more than a transformer that steps down the voltage of the input signal, down to a voltage that is equal of a typical microphone output.

An interesting article on Direct boxes, in case anyone besides me is curious.

http://www.whirlwindusa.com/tech02.html

Focusrite has the trackmaster and twinmaster. They have optical compressors too.

Another great option.


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