Drums - BFD vs. DKFH - need in depth insight!

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agreatheight
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Drums - BFD vs. DKFH - need in depth insight! - April 09, 05 9:47 PM ( #1 )
I am looking to pick up a midi / computer drumming program for the studio. I play drums myself and would prefer to track live on singer / songwriter sessons but not all of my clients have the budget to have me set up for that. I have a small space and can't have my kit mic'ed all the time, oh well. So I am looking for a "life-like" drumming substitute for acoustic and rock, mostly. I have seen some of the other posts, but none of them go into a lot of detail.

I am curious about BFD and DKFH in terms of how each rates on the following types of details:

Can you swing / randomize hits?
Does it provide waltz time and odd time capabilities?
Can you select stick vs brush vs rutes, etc?
How adjustable are the dynamics?
How realistic are the fast patterns (rolls, flams, fills)?
How realistic is the hat and ride playing (opening and closing hats, shoulder vs bells patterns)?
Can you use your own samples?

Stuff like that. I am looking to purchase on Monday so any help would really be really appreciate it! Thanks!
<message edited by agreatheight on April 09, 05 9:50 PM>
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Eric Hartmann
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agreatheight
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RE: Drums - BFD vs. DKFH - need in depth insight! - April 09, 05 9:49 PM ( #2 )
<message edited by agreatheight on April 09, 05 9:50 PM>
wish i was ocean size, no one moves you no one even tries...

Eric Hartmann
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musicerotica
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RE: Drums - BFD vs. DKFH - need in depth insight! - April 09, 05 10:04 PM ( #3 )
First DKFH is a sample kit, not a sampler so it's the actual samples itself. You can load it up in DR-008 or some other sampler. BFD is an all in one unit. It's a dedicated plugin that uses it's own sets of factory made kits. You can't use any 3rd party kits although that COULD change. Currently it's limited to it's own sample library but it's a {B}ig {F}vckin {D}rumkit library that you can mix and match everything down to the snare skins from many different kits.

As far as realism goes, I'd say the possibilities are near endless. You can setup controller pads or use something like a V-Drum kit and trigger the samples, which would be the most realistic route. It's just a matter of setting up the proper drum maps and MIDI programming.
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BlindDog
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RE: Drums - BFD vs. DKFH - need in depth insight! - April 10, 05 11:20 AM ( #4 )


Can you swing / randomize hits?


As was stated, DFH (Superior, in my case) is a sample kit; it does not include the ability to play patterns, only single hits driven via VST or ReWire.



Does it provide waltz time and odd time capabilities?


Nope, due to the above reason. However, w/ a good drum map you can do any odd time you would otherwise define in the Sonar project.



Can you select stick vs brush vs rutes, etc?


Yes, DFH does have that. You select each drum in the kit and that's based on sticks, brushes, felt, etc.



How adjustable are the dynamics?


Pretty good w/ DFH, though I haven't worked out the velocity curves exactly like I'd like in each situation. As I understand the manual, various velocity levels will trigger different samples for the same drum. You can adjust a minimum and maximum velocity, ambience, microphones, etc. The only downside is the way it maps back into the project via VST, but you can get a lot of control using the Sends technique that's documented on the Toontrack website.



How realistic are the fast patterns (rolls, flams, fills)?


I'm no drummer, but they're more realistic (I think) than the hits from any of my other gear (Alesis SR-16, QS7, or Korg Triton Rack). The key, at least as far as I've seen, is the ambience control; that makes a world of difference for the stuff I've done so far.



How realistic is the hat and ride playing (opening and closing hats, shoulder vs bells patterns)?


The ride hits are pretty brash, but then again like I said I haven't worked out the velocity settings exactly right just yet. The hats sound fantastic.



Can you use your own samples?


Not that I'm aware of. Then again, w/ 35G of samples out of the box with DFHS, that's keeping me pretty busy. Use Cyclone and your own samples if you want to build your own kit.
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pgw
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RE: Drums - BFD vs. DKFH - need in depth insight! - April 10, 05 11:34 AM ( #5 )

ORIGINAL: musicerotica

First DKFH is a sample kit, not a sampler so it's the actual samples itself. You can load it up in DR-008 or some other sampler.


I think agreatheight is referring to DKFH Superior which is more like BFD than DKFH which,as you stated,is a sampleset,Superior runs as a standalone sampler too.Check it out at http://www.toontrack.com/superior.shtml

I´ve been thinking along the lines of getting one of these samplers myself(both would be great,but not economically justifiable,I´d rather get more guitars),I use DR-008(the Sonar-upgrade),but I´m very impressed by their respective demos.
Does anyone have both & can give an opinion on which is "better" sounding or easier to work with,users on their respective forums seem very enthusiastic.
Are there any issues with any of them in Sonar?
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tombuur
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RE: Drums - BFD vs. DKFH - need in depth insight! - April 10, 05 1:43 PM ( #6 )
I have BFD and like it. I am not a drummer and bought it to produce my own drum tracks. That is exactly what FXpansion targeted BFD for. Now, reading threads in KVR-audio, I can see they were surprised to find that a lot of real drummers have started using BFD with V-drums. Actually they have recently fixed something concerning the hihats (that I don't understand) to make BFD more useable for V-drummers.
pdarg
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RE: Drums - BFD vs. DKFH - need in depth insight! - April 10, 05 2:39 PM ( #7 )
I have both DFH (original), the DR-008, and the BFD.

BFD is simply the best, and for basic drums, it's all you really need. The only thing I would have added to it is some percussion such as tamborines, cow bells, etc., but that's not a big deal.

I would like to find some way to use my DFH samples within BFD - I know that they have a utility for DFH Superior - but what about one for the orginal DFH?? Does anyone know?
agreatheight
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RE: Drums - BFD vs. DKFH - need in depth insight! - April 10, 05 2:57 PM ( #8 )


ORIGINAL: pgw

I think agreatheight is referring to DKFH Superior which is more like BFD than DKFH...


Yeah, sorry - I was referrening to DKFH Superior. Thanks, pgw!

Anyone else?
wish i was ocean size, no one moves you no one even tries...

Eric Hartmann
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RE: Drums - BFD vs. DKFH - need in depth insight! - April 10, 05 4:24 PM ( #9 )

BFD is simply the best, and for basic drums, it's all you really need.

Hey, pdarg!

Can you elaborate on that? What do you like better about BFD?

M
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RE: Drums - BFD vs. DKFH - need in depth insight! - April 10, 05 5:19 PM ( #10 )

Ok here goes nothin'...

I have both BFD and DKFHS. I have had them both for quote a long time. The both sound EXCELLENT. You can't go wrong with either if realistic drum sounds are concerned. Some people argue over DKFHS having better cymbal sounds but again I think all those kind of things are subjective and vary from user to user. Both allow you to take your MIDI drum tracks and work magic with them to get them sounding just like you tracking a real drummer. BFD is expandable through their own sample expansion kits, BFD XFL and BFD *-bit. If brushes and mallet and cowbell and other percussion elements are important to you than you will need BFD XFL AS WELL. DKFHS comes with all this stuff out of the box. Toontracks is also coming out with a vintage and custom expansion pack that can be used with DKFHS OR as a totally seperate package. BFD also allows you to import other multi miked sample packs. In other words you can import the samples from DKFHS, Scarbee and a few others, convert them, and use those samples with the BFD interface and engine.

Both are very flexible and sound great the main differences and pros and cons are listed below as per MY opinion.

BFD

Pros

-Sounds fantastic
-Works extremely well with Vdrums and electronic kits
- Can import other product's samples DKFHS, Scarbee to name a few....check their website for others
- Always being refined and bettered
- Developers are top notch and work well with their user base and the community in general
- Interface is EXTREMELY EASY TO USE AND WORK WITH
- Comes with MIDI groove and you can build and make your own grooves work within th BFD interface. Meaning you can use it outside of a DAW app and still run drum beats through it or use it to "Jam" with your own Vdrum kit.
- Disk streaming

CONS

-- Limited to 8 or so "slots" meaning that you can only load and play a slightly limited kit ie: kits that have no more than 8 pieces total
- Double bass is a bit limited becasue you can't load 2 bass drums at the same time
- May need to either upgrade your computer or buy a new one to get it to run. Needs a lot of horsepower
- Needs a dedicated drive to really shine
- Can start to get expensive when adding on the expansion packs

DKFHS

Pros

- Sounds Fantastic cymbals are some of the best I have ever heard
- Can load extremely large kits unlike BFD which is limited in kit size
- works very efficiently with your RAM
- Interface and kit building is very flexible
- Works very well with Vdrums and is probably more flexible than BFD on this aspect

Cons

- Inerface is VERY duanting at first and ahas a very high learning curve
- Doesn't do disk streaming some you need more RAM to load the bigger kits
- Needs to have song played through first so samples will load before you go to bouncing down or mixing a song. See manual if software is bought
- Not sure about this just a feeling, but I think the development team at Toontrack is smaller the Fxpansion. They don't come out with upgrades and patches as fast as Fxpansion does and don't seem as involved with the community as a whole. Except for Rogue at Toontrack he is really on the ball......
- Can't use any other samples except what comes with DKFHS and their new C&V expansion pack coming out
- Uses up 35GB!!
- No disk streaming

If I had to break it down to one thing when stacking these two up against each other it would be this.....

If you want to get drumming and tracking right away, and have little patience for tweaking your software, then go with BFD. It just works and the interface is GREAT. You will be limited if just BFD is bought since there are no brushes, mallets or percussive instruments out of the box. You need to add XFL for that and that is another $250 or so added onto the $300 or so you spent with BFD.

If you are computer savvy and don't mind a cryptic interface, then go with DKFHS. The software can be nearly limitless as far as drumkit size and custom building drums and kits go. You will need to read the manual and run through the tutorials for DKFHS and you will still not undersatnd it after that. Budget two or thrre days to get a fix on the software and another week or two before you get "comfortable" with it.

You reall can not go wrong with either, I just think that one is better for the tweaker and hard core drum manic (DKFHS) and the other is build for drummers and non drummers that need to get work done fast and do not want to mettle around with software (BFD)

Hope this helps, send any questions you want my way and I will try to help as much as I can.

Wayne


jhira001
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RE: Drums - BFD vs. DKFH - need in depth insight! - April 10, 05 5:46 PM ( #11 )
wayne,

that is a great summary. this seems like a pretty common question (I had asked it myself some time ago). next time someone asks this question i think they should be hyperlinked to your thread.

i guess i'll add $0.02:

I have BFD and not DKFH. i think that the promotion samples on the BFD website really sound like crap...so don't be too put off by them. actually they sound just like any kit does when you pull up a default and crank up the room, pzm or overhead mics. i've had my best results with BFD after scooping the low-mids of the "room mics" to tame the snare. after that, i've been really impressed with BFD.
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BlindDog
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RE: Drums - BFD vs. DKFH - need in depth insight! - April 10, 05 6:06 PM ( #12 )
I agree that DFHS is cryptic out of the box, so one of the first things I did was define drum maps for the drummer, percussionist, and cocktail sets. That made all the difference in the world. (These are available from the Toontrack site with instruction on how to use them, btw.) And while most people talk about the drummer VSTi when they're talking about DFHS, the percussionist VSTi and all it brings to the table is, well, just awesome.
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RE: Drums - BFD vs. DKFH - need in depth insight! - April 10, 05 7:41 PM ( #13 )


ORIGINAL: bigwayne56@earthlink.net
- Not sure about this just a feeling, but I think the development team at Toontrack is smaller the Fxpansion. They don't come out with upgrades and patches as fast as Fxpansion does and don't seem as involved with the community as a whole. Except for Rogue at Toontrack he is really on the ball......
- Can't use any other samples except what comes with DKFHS and their new C&V


I think you hit the nail right on the head except i think Rouge is an idiot.
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RE: Drums - BFD vs. DKFH - need in depth insight! - April 10, 05 8:43 PM ( #14 )
Forgive my newbie question, but how do you import samples for use in BFD?
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RE: Drums - BFD vs. DKFH - need in depth insight! - April 10, 05 9:25 PM ( #15 )

Samples are imported on only a few selected other "multi miked" kits like DKFHS, Scarbee XL and such. You CANNOT USE YOUR OWN SAMPLES WITH BFD, only what FXPANSION has created conversion utilities for....

I does create multiple option though. Like for me I use most of the BFD DW kit ofr snare, Kick and Toms and I use the imported DKFHS cymbals on a custom kit. BFD is the ONLY drum VI that allows something this unique.

Very flexible stuff....

Wayne
agreatheight
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RE: Drums - BFD vs. DKFH - need in depth insight! - April 10, 05 10:35 PM ( #16 )
Wow, thanks everyone (especially bigwayne)! I really appreciate the input and this has helped a whole lot. Thanks again!!
wish i was ocean size, no one moves you no one even tries...

Eric Hartmann
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RE: Drums - BFD vs. DKFH - need in depth insight! - April 11, 05 1:38 AM ( #17 )
BigWayne, great review and I completely agree. I went with DKFHS because of the depth of the product. I wish I had the BFD interface though, very nice.
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RE: Drums - BFD vs. DKFH - need in depth insight! - April 11, 05 2:40 AM ( #18 )
Thanks everyone (Bigwayne!)!
They both seem to have their share of pro´s & con´s,but I think I´ll go with BFD(for now) & maybe expand with DKFHS later.

Also for those interested(from FXpansion´s site):

What is BFD From Hell?

BFD From Hell is a data convertor utility, which ports Toontrack's "Drum Kit From Hell Superior" audio data into BFD format. You will need to own both BFD and DKFHS for BFD From Hell to be of any use.

What is Imperial BFD?

Imperial BFD is a data convertor utility, which ports Scarbee's "Imperial Drums" audio data into BFD format. You will need to own both BFD and Scarbee Imperial for Imperial BFD to be of any use.



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