Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better?

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b rock
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2005/04/11 20:19:23 (permalink)

Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better?

Ridiculous subject to discuss, isn't it? After all, they're all tools geared to a specific task, and they shouldn't be compared directly, because we're talking apples & oranges. I'm just trying to point out the futility of 'versus' threads, and why they're always doomed to failure: Because there is no one single answer that will complete the question satisfactorily. There are only different projects to complete, and you can reach your desired goal in dozens of different ways.

Everyone has an opinion (and rightfully so) on how to go about this or that, and what way might be better. That makes for entertaining reading, but these threads don't produce any real, practical solutions, and ultimately fall flat under their own weight. It's your project; your creative vision; your deadline; your payoff (either in a financial sense, or in 'job satisfaction'). Do the research (which can include these "vs." threads), formulate an informed opinion, make your decisions, and then dive in. If you don't have the proper screws or finish nails to hang those pictures on the wall, don't wait for Home Depot to deliver. You have to find a way to make it work.

Is it better to have Norm Abram's entire New Yankee Workshop at your disposal? Sure it is. You never know when you might need that $10K Planer/Joiner/Router to fashion a table leg out of scrap barn siding and some leftover sawdust. Can you do it with a few hand tools instead? It'll take longer, but with some care and imagination, you can do the same, and perhaps learn a trick or two along the way. I like to take a median course, and collect enough of a complete toolkit to cover most of the bases.

No one tool will ever do it all. Some are more versatile than others, but you have to make up any perceived shortcoming with your creativity. But that's just my opinion. Realize that this is from someone who enjoys pounding a stove bolt through some mahogany with a Philips, just to see if it can be done.
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    kammeyjd
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/11 20:34:08 (permalink)
    lmao!
    #2
    BC
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/11 20:51:00 (permalink)
    Uh....

    What are you trying to say, b rock?

    Life is like an Analogy
    www.bcproject.com
    #3
    wrench45us
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/11 20:54:46 (permalink)

    could it be that shack in the swamp has sprung a leak in the spring rains?


     


    #4
    b rock
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/11 21:17:46 (permalink)
    Hehehe. That shack never did hold water very well; it's been prone to that ever since I ...er, it was built. Just out to lighten up the mood; trust me, I'm not out to offend anyone. Weird mood: I'm just a little more opinionated and 'out-there' than usual; I fear that the accumulated lack of sleep is taking its toll.

    And, I have a confession to make: I lied. As I look around at all of the controllers, racks, guitars, mixers, etc. all drowning in a sea of Aurelex, I have no right to claim taking a 'median course' with the tools. I just looked in VST Plugin 5 [Junk Synths - Possibly Useful] folder, and I hate to tell you how many I found in there. So I had to get this off my chest. But the stove bolt story is the gospel truth.

    And BC, if I haven't said it before, welcome to the ranks. I enjoy your lively replies, and I hope that you end up with the satisfaction that you made a wise investment in creativity with this software. I'll be honest with you: I had a hard time deciding between Reason and Project5 when it first came out. I gambled on P5, got it home, and immediately felt like I had just made a $300.00 mistake. I fought it for a while, and then the news came of the free 2.5 update for Reason. My heart sunk, but I stuck with it, and the rest is ...
    #5
    wrench45us
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/11 21:36:16 (permalink)
    hey I did the debate between Reason and P5 when I was first looking into this too.

    then I went to the Cakewalk dog and pony show for P5 and it was all over
    bought it that night
    at a price i won't mention for fear of losing what little respect this internet persona has acquired
    just made so much sense to me
    and my wife was with me that night and she was the one that opened the checkbook

    hey, we haven't given any thought yet to the dog and pony show for P5 v2
    that should be a killer -- and when I went for Sonar 4
    that's right,
    they had T-shirts


     


    #6
    gourdjopy
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/11 21:40:48 (permalink)
    I think b-rock does have a point. If you're looking for a quick way to make "phat trance leads" and genre dance music, then Reason is a great choice. If you want more choices and flexibility, then go for P5 with its ability to bring in other synths and now (horray!) audio support.

    No package can do everything, so it's not a question of which is better, but what does each do well. I personally hated Reason when I used it (as you might guess from the music linked below), but I know lots of people who love Reason. The best answer is always to turn "which is better" into "for what purpose?"
    #7
    ucacjbs
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/11 21:48:05 (permalink)
    Hey! How can you even start this debate without mentioning the torque wrench? Oh... it's a metaphor. Oops.

    I agree - different tools are useful for different tasks - it's all about finding the one that suits your way of working best, and whose work-arounds you can live with for the things you do more rarely (and even the tool whose work-arounds lead you onto even more interesting stuff!).

    #8
    b rock
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/11 22:08:52 (permalink)
    hey, we haven't given any thought yet to the dog and pony show for P5 v2
    Brilliant, Jan! In all of the hubbub about this new version talk, I've lost sight of the real goal; the true holy grail of this forum. I slipped up once; they won't catch me asleep at the wheel again.

    As I've said before, the Sonar tour rep didn't have any schwag with him [last stop], so he handed out business cards for a choice of Sonar/Project5 t-shirts (like they actually exist). I entertained some dark thoughts of jumping one of the five winners in the parking lot after. I still think that I could've taken that chick (in a fair fight).

    Attention: Cake Reps serving the Southeast on the 2P5 Tour. Look for me at the Guitar Center on Kendall Drive. I'll be the big guy with the crazed look in his eyes and the MIDI tattoo on his forehead.

    Warning: I'm not asking; I'm taking a shirt!
    #9
    BC
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/11 23:24:22 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: b rock
    And BC, if I haven't said it before, welcome to the ranks. I enjoy your lively replies, and I hope that you end up with the satisfaction that you made a wise investment in creativity with this software.


    Thanks! Though you may end up wishing I had bought Reason3 instead (and started bugging the $h!t out of the props forum denziens instead of you all!).

    My thing is, okay 1 of my things is: I hate clutter. I hate clutter on my desk, in my sock drawer, in my ersatz studio, on my hard-drive or in my music. So I'm not one to buy tools for the sake of the tool. I try out the latest plugs and synths but very very few end up surviving the weekly HD purge.

    I've D/Led the P5 demo something like 5x. I'm not joking. And Reason Adapted? I bet I installed/uninstalled it at least 4x. I kept coming back to those 2 when I would start banging my head against the MIDI/Softsynth limitations of SONAR4 'cause my STRONG inclination is to do nearly everything within SONAR.

    Some folks may toss $180 into the SoftSynth pool and think nothing of it but me? I agonize and compare and research and read and poke and prod a fair bit more than I should. But I'm in now.



    Life is like an Analogy
    www.bcproject.com
    #10
    crabtwins
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/11 23:48:39 (permalink)
    I never meant to set off that firestorm of responses. I guess threads don't stop sometimes. Like I said, I'm a cakewalk boat right now and it's doing the job just right! Even though I probably dont even know how to use it right. I dont care.

    H
    a
    m
    m
    e
    r

    #11
    harmony gardens
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/12 00:00:48 (permalink)
    I hope you like it too, BC. My instincts tell me you will. Nothing wrong with shopping and asking the hard questions. I do the same thing a bit myself.

    I'm sort of blown away at how much value we can get for our money today, buying tools for the studio, though. Example, I bought a Roland 707 drum machine for $400 once. Whew, one cheeseys drum set, and some buttons. Today, you can get Project 5 and TONS of drum Samples, for less money and it will just blow a 707 away.

    That's not to say we shouldn't make careful decisions, but it's some perspective on how much less a person needs to spend today to get cool tools now.
    #12
    wrench45us
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/12 08:42:36 (permalink)
    back to the underlying topic
    on the Sonar 4 tour the rep had no Sonar T-shirts left in sizes suitable to people who sit around in front of computers day (and now night)
    sure if I was 20 years younger I could have fit into a medium -- so that's another message to the powers that be, to be prepared -- your target T-shirt audience may not be young and/or fit

    BC -- i hate clutter as well
    as a matter of fact, just these last few days a co-worker resurrected an e-mail where I had detailed a nasty problem we now have the go ahead to fix -- of course, I'd deleted it months ago.
    i clean my hard drive of projects every 6 months. I don't use track patches, cause I don't want to clutter things up (unfortunately I cannot find a nice reverse string patch I had after several nights of searching)
    and I tend to use a few low cpu synths over and over because I know the extensive preset banks and organized or not I can (usually) find what I want
    it is a struggle to maintain some clean organization and not get overwhelmed by the number of free synths and free banks available. i can see why Reason would have some real appeal to someone who doesn't like clutter.
    But I have also heard of Reason users who come upon a project they did a few months ago and try to figure out their pseudo-cable/modulation routings and get completely lost. And even in the Reason demo, I had to scroll to see all the modules involved in the project.

    One of the great appeals of P5 to me is how one can look at a project and pretty much instantly see what's going on. Almost everything is on the surface (though that may change a bit with v2). And if one cares to be thorough in labelling patterns, one can make it even more obvious.

    P5 people talk about workflow a lot, but it's also the Cakewalk presentation of a project and patterns that are a part of that. With P5 v2, the device chain for any given track will be even more obvious. It looks like the same thing may be true with track automation -- though i don't know exactly how multiple automation envelopes can be displayed at once for the really big picture -- but I guess you see my point. It's not a cluttered work surface.

    People don't talk about it much, but I think that is one of the real appeals of Tracktion and Ableton Live -- the clean presentation of the work area. Sonar takes a few days for me to see everything and how it fits together, but it makes sense after a while. P5 it's pretty much instantaneous.
    And I will say as a software developer this sort of design is one of the very hardest things to do. But when it happens it's easy to recognize -- microTonic has one -- the new Filterscape is incredible for showing clearly how very complex modules interact. It's easy to overlook this aspect of P5 cause it seems so obvious.
    post edited by wrench45us - 2005/04/12 08:45:32


     


    #13
    :10:
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/12 09:25:25 (permalink)
    not sure if this fits here...but i hated the P5 demo. i was using mastertracks pro at the time, and i couldnt figure out p5, and had no idea what a vst was. so a year later i tried playing with it again, got frustrated because i couldnt save anything, and decided to buy it for what ever reason. once i had the full version, i just started learning the basics...and from there...i dont think i could use another program. i just simply love it.

    i didnt even know of any other programs like it except for cubase....and the only reason i knew of that program was because the guy that helped me record my first cd had an earlier version....and that was way back when i was using a black and white mac...a korg x-somthing-and master tracks pro on that system.

      
    #14
    René
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/12 12:39:38 (permalink)
    Ridiculous subject to discuss, isn't it?



    Indeed. Everyone knows hammers are best.




    -René
    #15
    agincourtdb
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/12 12:47:20 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: René

    Ridiculous subject to discuss, isn't it?


    Indeed. Everyone knows hammers are best.

    -René


    I'm partial to the adz.


    #16
    rabeach
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/12 12:55:16 (permalink)
    if it has strings and magnetic pickups pliers will instigate a joyful noise. if it is electronic a screwdriver will never fail to raise a charge (just make sure minimum bodily contact with any metal). and then the hammer, if it is not needed anymore and there is a glorious sound left to be uttered a hammer will bring it forth. try one on a piano soundboard. (ball peen works well) if you can get your hands on one a tabla tuning hammer has joined the screwdriver and hammer into a single instrument. very functional for electric guitar. if they could just add the pliers wow what a tool it would be.
    #17
    René
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/12 13:00:38 (permalink)
    Using a hammer on electric guitars... that's a recurrent, beautiful dream. Sometimes I even get the amps.

    -René
    #18
    BC
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/12 14:50:15 (permalink)
    I wonder if auto-mechanics get into heated, lengthy debates of merits of Snap-on vs. Craftsman?

    It would probably be a dull musical creation world if our tools were as interchangeable as a 1/8-inch drive socket wrench.

    Life is like an Analogy
    www.bcproject.com
    #19
    kammeyjd
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/12 14:55:17 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL:
    I wonder if auto-mechanics get into heated, lengthy debates of merits of Snap-on vs. Craftsman?


    yes, they do. my friend used to work in a garage and heard this very debate. snap on is apparently considered better.
    #20
    wrench45us
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/12 15:24:35 (permalink)

    snap on is almost universally recognized as superior

    but why has nobody mentioned duct tape?

    sure hammers are fun for a while, but when you need that guitar to look good as new again, nothing can do what duct tape can do.

    i once worked at a photo lab where every darkroom was made of duct tape and masonite -- probably about as hurricane ready as b-rock's swamp shack


     


    #21
    jvanva
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/12 15:32:59 (permalink)
    I don't think it is a complete waste of time to contrast tools, although a screwdriver vs hammer vs pliers is a bit extreme. If you don't have a hammer, a screwdriver is not going to help you since there is little overlap in functionality.

    How about a ball peen hammer vs a claw hammer vs a mallet - or sandpaper vs emory cloth vs steel wool. There some degree of overlap in the uses of these tools and contrasting their respective uses can be productive, as long as it doesn't get too emotional or excessive. Granted in the short term it may not help you get the current project done. And there are never any clear "winners" with these discussions. But somewhere underneath the smoke and flames there there is an opportunity to learn something about the other tools that you might find useful someday.

    It also helps to see where maybe your tools may come up short and give ideas for improvement. If users didn't know what features the other tools offerred, they are unlikely to ask for them in the tools they are using. Then the toolmakers may not have the insight to know what their clients want to use. Look at the improvements that were made in Sonar - track folders, pan laws, etc. It's pretty clear that Cakewalk listened to their Sonar users to add these features, but what informed the Sonar users?

    I even believe that (though this might be a stretch) that Cakewalk looked at these kinds of discussions regarding other products such as Reason and Ableton and used what they discovered there to determine what to add to P5. It seems much more than a coincidence to me that these new features address the areas that were found lacking in competitive products.

    That said, I am looking forward to having P5 and Reason play together in harmony as rewire buddies (depending on P5's rewire host implementation).

    jvanva
    #22
    amac
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/12 15:38:10 (permalink)
    I was staying out of this till you mentioned duct tape. I fixed a pocket on my jeans with duct tape (I carry a lot of stuff) as an emergency measure to get me through a camping trip 2 years ago. To my surprise it is still working, so to bring it back around.....sometimes an unconventional use of a tool (hammer, screwdriver, PSYN) can produce exceptional results....

    al
    #23
    rabeach
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/12 16:46:57 (permalink)
    anything electronic can be fixed with duct tape and a schmitt trigger.
    #24
    mike85021
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/12 17:21:59 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: amac

    .... sometimes an unconventional use of a tool (hammer, screwdriver, PSYN) can produce exceptional results....


    Here's an old standby -- use a small phillips screwdriver and hammer to make a neat and effective screw start in sheetrock or plywood.

    Why is it that my musical tools seem in much better shape than the other ones...?

    Mikey T
    Eclectica de Esoterium
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    Juan Sanchez
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/12 17:32:28 (permalink)
    I know, Hammer is best, besides that I never heard of a guitar called Screwdriver or Pliers

    Take Care, Juan Sanchez

    Rockin in the free world
    #26
    philchetcuti3
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/12 17:34:34 (permalink)
    It was an object lesson, a diatribe, and a discourse on the forum...slap yerselves if you didn't get it.
    #27
    b rock
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/12 17:46:07 (permalink)
    Doesn't duct tape contain metal fibers, and thereby have the potential to conduct current? Hmm ... I guess that I can leave the tinfoil home for those emergency fuse repairs ...

    I'll tell you: you guys crack me up. I throw out a stream-of-consciousness 'sample' in a posted topic, and you all [y'all?] take it and run. There's enough creative imagination here to power a small city. Joseph [jvana] was right: it was unfair for me to use those particular tools metaphorically, but I have to disagree with him about substituting the screwdriver for a hammer. I've got the stove bolt to prove it.

    Should've used saws: you know; handsaws, Sawzalls, radial arm, table, Skil, coping, hacksaws, compound miter, demo, tile, abrasive blade, etc. etc. etc. Measure twice; cut once. Hmm ... Saw Up/Saw Down. The secret to the saw is in the Tooth [Teeth?].

    As I've said, those 'vs.' threads are entertaining, and can be informative, if facts are presented, rather than some inflated opinions. Even some opinions/situations come disguised as facts. My favorite line involves CPU usage. Like there isn't a million variables that goes into those quoted 'stats', including the possibility of human error. Yeah, P5 is a pig, that's for sure, but I've only seen someone like Andy C back it up with charts, and the results were surprisingly acceptable.

    So where does P5 fall in the toolbox category? I don't know; the Swiss Army knife comparison seems a little overused & dated. What is the brand name of those new all-in-onem pocket tools? The term escapes me at the moment. Hey, how about comparing Project5 to a Dremel? Very versatile, a ton of add-on attachments, not much on instruction manuals, but still scorned by the building trades as a home-hobbyists tool.

    To answer my original question, I''ll agree with Rene; a hammer is best, and Project5 is my favorite hammer: not a sledgehammer; not a finish tool, but a nice middle-of-the-road 20 oz. hammer that fits my hand like a glove. There's not much need for a screwdriver or pliers if you beat a big enough hole in your project. And when all else fails: get a bigger hammer. Is it the 21st yet?
    #28
    b rock
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/12 17:52:18 (permalink)
    Here's an old standby -- use a small phillips screwdriver and hammer to make a neat and effective screw start in sheetrock or plywood.
    I'd also heard somewhere that people use a Philips with a hammer to construct some sort of a smoking device out of an empty 2-liter bottle of liquor. They fill it with water, allow an air bubble to move to the desired point of impact, and then Bong!: a perfectly cylindrical hole is produced. They shove it full of tubing, and keep the water in there, for some ungodly reason. These damn kids of today ...

    Edit: Bong? I guess that I meant to say "Bang!"; I don't know where that one came from. Thanks for pointing this out, Mike. That term would only be appropriate if a bell were used, rather than a a discarded liquor bottle. The things that you learn these days on the Discovery Channel is amazing ...
    post edited by b rock - 2005/04/12 18:03:58
    #29
    mike85021
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    RE: Hammer/Screwdriver/Pliers-Which Is Better? 2005/04/12 17:56:12 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: b rock
    ...

    ... and then Bong!


    You really said that, didn't you.

    Is it the 21st yet?

    Mikey T
    Eclectica de Esoterium
  • mike85021 @cox.net
    Just say NO!
  • #30
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