Soft Synths Begone!

I have not had any luck with playback soft synths. I am not talking about subtractive synths like the Moog or Z3Ta which work fine.

I have a setup with a DAW for Sonar and a separate machine for soft synths. My soft synth machine has a latency of less that 3 mils. So far so good.

In the past, I tried Gigastudio. In particular, I wanted great piano and violins.

The gigapiano was good on the low notes and the high notes, but had a phase problem on the all important middle range. The violin samples I bought did not cut it.

I continued to use my Korg X2 for all sample playback needs. The piano (2 meg) was just plain better than the gigapiano. Everyone who heard it agreed. It cut though, had more presence, and was just more fulfilling. I never upgraded to gigastudio for XP, and just forgot about my giga licence.

I tried Sampletank but to me it was cheezy.

Next I bought Kontact 2. I never could get it to work right, but from what I could tell, the pianos and strings sounded poor. One of these days I should re-load it and spend a bunch of time to figure it out. I am sure that somewhere out there I could find some samples that would work for me if I spent enough time and money looking for them.

I tried Colossus. It comes on 8 DVDs. The pianos sound like they are recorded from about 30 feet away in a large hall. The reverb is part of the sample. It is weird to play a piano that sounds like it is 30 feet away. Colossus has a couple "brite" pianos that are close mic'ed but are thin sounding. In addition, the velocity curve did not match my controller so notes would be very loud when they shouldn't. The violins are VERY poor. The solo violins have a strange blowing sound like the breath from a flute. I played violin for 6 years and I never heard anything like this. The string sections have a long swell built into the sample. Good for long pads but useless to play melodies. String arrangements from pop songs often have very fast moving melodies. I cover songs that have string sections, and I find the strings on this product to be useless.

Finally, I popped for Dimension Pro. It is clearly better than Colossus, but still no home run. The pianos are usable but not great. The strings swell too slowly. The tenor sax sounds like a tenor sax, but no growl is available. Perhaps Dimension Pro's value is in other kinds of sounds than piano and strings.

All through this I have found my 10 year old Korg X2 to be superior for piano, strings, trumpet, organ, and sax. It has 8 megs of sample memory. I get the impression that Korg would spend huge amounts of time fine honing to get things to sound right, and that software playback manufactuers more or less just sample and go. Huge sample size is not enough.

So I just ordered a Korg Triton Extreme. I hope it sounds like the X2 with some refinements. There was really no way to try it out at guitar center. Whenever I went there some hip hop guy would be playing it.

Perhaps Korg will introduce a soft synth that is a clone of the triton. That would be nice.

I get the impression that Korg would spend huge amounts of time fine honing to get things to sound right, and that software playback manufactuers more or less just sample and go. Huge sample size is not enough.

You have stumbled onto a real truth there, pharaoh. In fact, piano and orchestral instruments are probably the hardest for any synth to do. Frankly, I have yet to find a softsynth or a sample that can even touch my Oberheim MiniGrand piano module. I have SampleTank 2 and out of all the pianos on there, found only one that even gets into the ballpark. And even that one isn't quite as expressive.

For orchestral, it seems the only way to go is with a good, dedicated sample library like EWQLSO, or a package like Garritan Personal Orchestra. (I mention these only because you didn't. My apologies if you have already looked at these.)

For real-sounding intruments the physical modeling synths (like everything from Applied Acoustics) are superb. Also, Garritan has a solo Stradivari worth checking out. I'm also impressed with the demo mp3's over at synful.com for their Synful Orchestra.

Just some thoughts...

Damn You!
I've just decided to sell off and go all soft synth.
Although I'm not very interested in piano sounds. I do love pads but if there is one thing I would want the best of... that would be acoustic guitar. I would like to blend it with natural guitar. Nylon, Steal, or anything. I've heard a few that sound nice but can't justify buying the whole package for ust that.
Did i mention I love Pads and atmospheric sounds.

ORIGINAL: juicerocks
one thing I would want the best of... that would be acoustic guitar

Applied Acoustics String Studio

I'd get it today but I'm invested in Tassman (their flagship product), and I'm holding out to see if they integrate any advancements from their side products into modules for T5. These physical models make you feel like there are real strings (and hammers and mallets) under your keys. Try playing one of their models and adjusting the damping while you play. That was enough to hook me.

Edit: ReFX Slayer 2, which is an electric guitar/amp physical modeler, also claims that with some adjustments to the body size parameters you can get a realistic acoustic sound out of it. I don't have this one yet, though I'm planning on getting it soon to try out. It's pretty cheap and also may be worth a try. And, if nothing else, you can get the electric stuff along with it.

ORIGINAL: Tomcat
Korg Legacy Collection Digital Edition which

The Wavestation is cool (as is the M1). Is the emulation pretty good? (Actually, I'd hope for "netter", since now there is more resolution and bandwidth available for the samples.)

Also, any word on soft versions of the 01/w series?

Oh Yea, the Korg Legacy Collection Digital Edition seems to be a no brainer for the price.
I'm definately getting that.

I haven't gone to the lengths (read expense) that you have, pharohoknaughty, but I couldn't agree more. I just like some of the sounds that my hardware midi sound modules have over my soft synths - particularly my Proteus 2000 and Roland XV-2020. I find that in auditioning single samples in the soft synths, they often sound great, but you put them in the mix and they do not work at all.

I possess Battery II, Garritan Pro Orchestra, and Dimension Pro. I have tried demos of many, many others. Of them all, I do find myself using Dimension Pro about as much as anything.

Wow! I didn't expect so many comments.

To clarify, I did not buy Sampletank or Colossus. I have several freinds in the area that have a nice budget, and I spent a fair time on their rigs to test these out. If I had paid $1,000 for Colossuss I would be really mad. The emporer has no clothes.

One friend also has Lounge Lizzard. I thought it was competent, but did not blow me away. If you like it, there is a good chance you have better taste than me.

For Epianos and clavinets, I am looking at this as my next purchase if the triton is weak. Their demo is impressive.

As far as the Dimension Pro pianos, they are (IMO) good but not great. I wanted my jaw to drop, but it didn't. I would not be surprised if many players would be very satisfied with the Dimension Pro pianos.

I don't look back on getting Dimension Pro, if for no other reason to stay up with the latest sound technology. Dimension Pro is meant to be more than a piano and violin playback system. My philosophy is to try to stay up with technology and modern music. I am 54 and most of my friends quit listening to new music and using modern tools in their 30's. I find the development of music totally interesting, and I buy and try to learn programs like Fruity Loops, Project 5 and Dimension Pro out of curiousity.


Gamble is right about the MDA piano. I tried it and it is very flexible and easy to control. I tried the demo of the similar B200 and it shows promise but is complex and I was just not convinced. Could very well be worth the $89 he wants. Both of these products allow you to change the charateristics of the piano.

Since I started this thread it occurs to me that the reason I like the Korg piano might be that they compressed it, besides tightly integrating the velocity curve to the keyboard. I should try running a compressor on the Dimension pro piano, and play around with the velocity curve settings on my controller, to see if this is what rings my chimes. It seems like the soft synth should have velocity curve settings, but I have not seen any. It is not convenient to have to change them on the controller.

As far as string swells, I like the sample to have zero swell and controll it with the swell (Volume) pedal. I got real used to this playing B3 in the old days. My complaint is that the samples in soft synths seem to have the swell built into the sample. For me it renders them useless.

Thanks for the interest in my comments, and the suggestions.

For space and money reasons, I've gone entirely software... but I miss my old hardware synths: faster workflow, better sounds, less crashes...

I don't miss my living room being full of gear, however.

I don't miss my living room being full of gear, however.

That is a critcal factor for space challenged home studios.

ORIGINAL: Mod Bod

I don't miss my living room being full of gear, however.

That is a critcal factor for space challenged home studios.

Aswell as chords, and repair costs you incurr when you don't baby treat stuff!

ORIGINAL: Quasar

What a surprising thread. I dumped my arranger keyboard last year and began collecting soft samples/libraries for the SOLE reason that one could get better sounds. Hardware UIs are clearly easier to navigate, and don't tax the CPU/RAM like samples do, but the sounds themselves are clearly much, much better if you get good stuff.

I 2nd GPO. For less than $250 it's an absolute steal. And I'm definitely going to get the Garritan Strad. (And probably GOS, which is on sale.)

And For acoustic guitar, are there any hard synths that even approach Real Guitar for tonal realism and clarity? If so, I'd like to hear the demo!

I'm especially surprised about your review of Colossus. I don't have this because of price, but it's been on my wish list for a while.

Granted, before I went soft, I only had a relatively cheap, entry-level board (Yamaha PSR 540), but I listened to a lot of demos, and I'm certain that if you only care about good sounds- instead of convenience or ease of use- software instruments are the way to go.

I agree with your post, software is the way to go.I think the sound quality is very good of alot of software, and if you compare any software synth to hardware synth in the same price range software would have it beat by faaaaaaaar! what i'm saying is hardware don't get good until you fork over alot of dollars and this is not the case with software. I own tassman 4 wich cost $289, i am very pleased with its richness,warmness, and playability.I also have Reason 3.0 wich probably offers sound creation possibilities and flexibility that most hardware synths can't match, and only dream of achieving.When this computer digital world came i truly knew someone above was thinking about me! I wrestled with low end hardware for too long,I am very pleased with the sounds of digital box, BUT also i understand the desires of others who are use to exact nature of traditional instruments sounds, and software synths come close but no exact emulation of traditional, I don't think that can be found yet.In the end i personally just look for what sounds good to my ears it does'nt have to exactly emulate every small nuance of traditional instruments performances, But even though the emulation is'nt perfect "yet" it's still a instrument in it's own right, and the software synth is part of the greatest instrument of all time "the computer", if you install the right programs the computer offers unlimited flexibility and creative potential. there has never been, nor will there ever be a instrument greater than the computer, and it is only growing more powerful and versatile with the passage of time. I'm outty...

ORIGINAL: harmony gardens
I have tried a lot of softsynths and piano options, too. I'm basically working in a studio setting these days, and my music is all over the map in style, so there isn't one answer to all situations. One piano sound I keep coming back to is the "Nice Steinway D" from the Piano Collection available for Sampletank. It has a nice balance, and seems to blend the best with most combinations I use. It can be purchased from eSoundz as a single download.

Hi hg, glad you jumped into this. My go-to piano from SampleTank is "Concert Grand Piano ST" under ST2XL > Piano. It's full and well-defined over the entire range, with no weak samples in the set, and with decent expressiveness, too. It's probably best as a solo, but it works well blended with pads too.

Edit: This said, of course, for when I have a project in which I don't want to mess with the outboard piano module.

ORIGINAL: wz061s
I also end up going back to the Sonic Reality pianos I got from eSoundz quite a bit (for SampleTank). In fact, my default composing piano, "ShineWay Pno", sounds like the same sample set as "A Nice Steinway D", with different sampletank effects and EQ settings. A great "mix" piano.

I might have to check those out. I wonder if my fav uses the same sample set too.

The Sonic Reality Basses and Drum Kits are also really good. Specifically, the basses sit in a mix incredibly well - listening to them in isolation does not do them justice.

Yes... good point. I don't find that SampleTank is cheesy, at least in general. Some samples and presets are weak, sure, but every package has weak spots - some more than others. SampleTank is actually a cut above a lot of softsynths in how much of it actually is useful. In fact, SampleTank / Sonic Reality is where I get my primary backdrop these days for drums, percussion, bass, pads, certain guitars, atmospheres, and "candy" strings. Heck, it's pretty loaded.

For one thing, big-name companies have deep wallets to throw at serious sound and parameter design.