Need controller help

Michele - you should consider the new controller technology Cakewalk has implemented in its most recent products, which includes the v2.5 update coming soon for Project5. That is ACT (Active Controller Technology).

First of all, ditch the Alesis as soon as possible. Unless you only want to use it to send MIDI key presses through a dedicated MIDI interface. Otherwise consider something modern.

My solution (and I dabbled last year by picking up a Korg K25 controller which I've barely used) now that Cakewalk has implemented ACT, is to possibly go with one of the new Edirol PCR series controllers, which are specially designed to work seamlessly with Cakewalk products (at least that's what the press releases say).

Here's a link:

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=865&ParentId=114

They also make two smaller versions. You may find that you don't need a dedicated pad controller for drums/samples, as the Edirol has 8 pads. It just looks like a real compatible solution to use w/ Cakewalk products, of which you appear to be a Cakewalk affecionado as am I. So it seems to be the path of least resistance.

I'm sure you'll get many alternate answers to this questions. Best of luck!

It would be wonderful to free myself from the mouse!

I certainly share your dream. Maybe someday that wish will come true.

As for controllers, here is what I posted on the Sonar website....

"Your best bet is to go to music instrument stores, make the salesman go away,
and just fake play on some controllers. You will feel what is "good" or not.
Not to mention it's your budget."

I use a KeystationPro88 and TriggerFinger. For what I do, they are excellent.

I agree with the summation that I probably need to buy exactly what I need, which ends up being 3 items. I need to ditch the only I item I own - Alesis Q6 keyboard.

I think the Casio Previa keyboards suit my needs for something that has 88 keys with hammer action.
I like the padKontrol to use with my drums.
But, now I wish I didn't have to buy a 3rd item - the midi controller for my synths.

At another residence I have an old Roland R8 MKII. Does anyone know if that would give me velocity control with the drums? Since it is old, would it be a pain to get it to sync up to Sonar and BFD?

I am primarily a guitarist and horn player and the investment of money just seems to go in all directions. I somehow need to control myself.

Nick mentioned the Roland PCR-800. It has dynamic mapping. This is Cakewalk's ACT, correct? I believe this is very new. Has anyone used one and would it suit my needs? I have been doing this midi stuff for years now and I am still confused. In fact, I never found the Roland R8 MKII very user friendly.

I do appreciate all comments.
Thank you, M.

The new Edirol PCR series has just hit the streets. I ordered the last one zzounds had yesterday...should have it by this Wednesday. I'm not sure how this dynamic mapping thing works myself, but I'm about to find out. I'll report back here when I get it.

Bill W - Please post a full report. Start a new thread. We will love to hear about it.

Yep!

have a good one
3Eo

Bill - Thanks loads. I was wondering about the action. It looks like from your picture that you know a thing or two about keyboard actions. I hated the action on the earlier Edirol 61 note and returned it. I was hoping this one would be better. I will still have to check it out myself, but I'm not nearly as "hot" on this keyboard as I was before I read your initial impressions. Please keep posting as you get further in to it. I (and most likely others) really appreciate it!

Bill,
Thanks for the initial report. Bummer, I was too was hoping for decent action. It's hard to use a tool that isn't a joy to use. I know in the guitar world that if the neck feels good, you are halfway there. Then again, my friend is a concert organist (not too many of them around) and when he plays on my Alesis Q6, it doesn't seem to bother him.
M.

LOL - I want you to want to like it so I can like it as much as I did before you didn't like it so much Seriously, looking forward to your further keyboard action and controller integration tests. As I recall my previous Edirol (PCR-M80) had this nasty key clack as the key hit bottom, which was not only noisy, but actually hurt your fingers. I could live with a shallow key dip, this being a synth action and all, but it would have to be smooth, quiet, and not hurt your fingers when it hit bottom. Please advise when you get a chance, thanks!

Here is Roland's press release section about the new keyboard action: "The new ultra-sensitive keyboards provide a wider dynamic range under the player's fingertips, while new aftertouch sensors allow the keyboardist to play more expressively. Smooth key action, keys shaped for comfortable glissando playing, silent operation, and stable key mounting all contribute to the enhanced playability of these keyboards."

Here is Cakewalk's press release section on the Edirols and their integration with ACT: "The new Edirol PCR-300, PCR-500, and PCR-800 MIDI keyboard controllers have been optimized to work seamlessly with SONAR. At launch, SONAR communicates with these new Edirol controllers to ensure that the PCR is in the correct mode to work with SONAR. In addition, the new PCR series have dedicated “Dynamic Mapping” buttons, which enable/disable ACT in SONAR. When enabled, SONAR enables ACT and launches the Edirol PCR-300 property page. When disabled, SONAR disables ACT and closes the Edirol PCR-300 property page."

Please advise if you are finding any of this to be manifested in the actual product you have.

OK, I've found a velocity setting I'm happy with for most applications. The choices are 1-4 and each number has a (L)ight, (M)edium and (H)ard associated with it (i.e., 1L, 1M, 1H, 2L, 2M, 2H, etc). 1H is working best for me so far. The shallow keys are going to take some getting used to.

I've gotten a little deeper into setting up the the PCR-800's controls. I had pretty good success remapping the controls for most soft synths. I even got the filter controls mapped for Synth1 (which I somehow thought wouldn't work). I figured out the pads too. The control surface editor window has a 2nd tab that gives you access to every physical controller (knobs, buttons, sliders, pads, etc) in each of the banks. From this window you can remap at will. The pads are (by default) locked out of ACT mode. To correct this, I had to select each pad from a dropdown list and uncheck the lockout option...pain in the a$$.

I am used to using my S90ES as a control surface as it gives me the ability to rewind, play, stop, record, undo, redo and save remotely (the keyboard is sitting a few feet from my PC). The PCR-800 has 4 buttons (L1-L4) that are supposed to rewind, stop, play and record. The rewind button frequently doesn't work but the others are fine (it starts out working and then quits randomly). I was initially disappointed that some of Sonar's other menu functions (like undo and save) weren't available on the PCR's front panel. That disappointment turned to excitement when I found that I could map any of Sonar's menu commands to any physical control on the PCR-800. I mapped File|Save to shift-L1 (C1+L1) and Edit|Undo to shift-L2 (C1+L2). To my surprise, the C1+L1 and C1+L2 keystrokes did nothing. If I clicked the C1 (shift) button on the PCR's software control panel, however, the shift-L2 combination worked (undo), but not the shift-L1 (save). I couldn't get File|Save to work on any physical control.

Any specific questions?

More to come...

+1 to that and general thanks for the comprehensive information. Like all keyboard actions it's a totally personal thing, so each will have to judge for him or herself if the keyboard action is acceptable. Otherwise it looks like a great little controller.

BillW
OK, I've found a velocity setting I'm happy with for most applications. The choices are 1-4 and each number has a (L)ight, (M)edium and (H)ard associated with it (i.e., 1L, 1M, 1H, 2L, 2M, 2H, etc). 1H is working best for me so far. The shallow keys are going to take some getting used to.

While BillW continues his review for us I thought I would ask a few questions. First off, how many keyboards would you use? Maybe an 88 key hammer action piano feel and then a smaller controller keyboard? If so, how many keys do you think are necessary on controller: 25, 49, 61? Then for me, I think something like the padKontrol to input drums.

I would appreciate any thoughts you all might have. I am certainly not happy with my Alesis Q6 as my do everything keyboard.
M.

OK, I got the pads working. By default, they do not transmit MIDI notes. The PCR's control panel sees them as something mappable to one of Sonar's controls, so the answer doesn't lie there. They can, however, can be programmed from the PCR's front panel to transmit note numbers. I mapped the first 4 pads to the kick, snare, hat and ride in Session Drummer 2. Each pad must be mapped individually and it's a 12-step process (alternatively this can be done with the supplied editing software...which is probably a lot faster/easier). I had already unassigned those four pads from Sonar functions. I didn't actually test this, but I'd bet that if I hadn't unassigned them, they'd have sent MIDI notes and control messages to Sonar (with some potentially interesting results ).

Anyway, I'm not sure how long those assignments persist. Maybe they can be saved as part of a template? I don't know...haven't gotten that far yet. What I do know is that the pads *suck* for drums. They have to be hit dead on and there isn't a lot of variety in the velocities (the resulting values are all high). The pads aren't that expressive and don't feel right for drumming (at least for me).

I read something in another forum today about Roland's promise regarding integration with Sonar. The bottom line was that it isn't implemented yet and there is no date for it to be completed. I don't know if there's any truth to this, but I haven't seen Sonar do anything with the PCR that puts it in the right mode (template 1). I still have to do it manually.

Well, I know there has been a lot of criticism leveled at ACT, but it I think *it* works.

If you're reading this for the first time, please make sure you see all of my subsequent posts...this "review" (and I use that word lightly) is a work in progress!

The PCR-800 and Sonar communicate on two levels. There's the control surface part, which affords the capability of mapping physical controls (knobs, sliders, buttons, switches, pads) with Sonar functionality (transport, mixing, project navigation, etc). Then there's ACT part, which allows you to map MIDI messages to (supposedly) any "virtual" control on a synth or effect. All ACT does is eliminate the need for the "MIDI learn" feature exhibited in most old school plugins by capturing the MIDI streams sent when you move something on the plugin in conjunction with your choice of corresponding physical controller. It also implements the use of focus (i.e., which plugin is selected) as the basis for the target of a set of mapping parameters (effectively "trapping" those message between the plugin and your controller so that nothing else is affected in the inevitable case that CC messages overlap between plugins, hardware synths, etc). ACT remembers those mappings you make on the fly for each plugin for use in subsequent projects.

From a control surface standpoint, there are some things that the PCR doesn't appear to be able to do (at least yet). As I pointed out earlier, the rewind, play, stop and record buttons (L1-L4) on the PCR partially work. The rewind button ceases to function almost immediately. The others work for a while and then behave erratically. The thing the PCR purports to do is map any of its physical controls to Sonar functions. I haven't done an exhaustive test of all of the menu items in the PCR's mapping drop-down box (and it's EXTENSIVE), but one of the most important ones (save) didn't work. I was able to successfully map undo (and that only half worked...I had to intervene with the mouse every time). I know these functions are mappable to a control surface because my Yamaha S90ES can emulate the Mackie and I can almost totally run Sonar from the front panel of the S90ES.

As for ACT not being ready for primetime, I don't blame Cakewalk as much as I blame poorly implemented VSTs and user error. For ACT to truly work, a VST plugin must correctly expose all of its controllable features through the VST API (i.e., the cutoff knob on a synth). VST plugins can be queried for what they expose in order for those features to be exploited by the host (which is how you can see the textual description in the PCR's control panel). The VST plugin must also have the capability of sending MIDI CC messages when its controls are manipulated (just as on a real synth)...it should also be able to receive those CC messages so its functions can be controlled externally. If certain controls are negected or improperly defined (from an host point of view) then they can't be mapped with any degree of accuracy.

Whew...rather long winded, but hopefully helpful.

Great step-by-step review, Bill. Not only do I feel like we're right there with you figuring it all out, but you also illustrate what to expect from ACT. It's not magic; rather, it's trying to embrace a complicated setup (along with a control surface level) with a lot of variables involved. If always felt like some level of tweaking will be necessary in nearly anyone's setup.

the rewind, play, stop and record buttons (L1-L4) on the PCR partially work. The rewind button ceases to function almost immediately.

I don't know whether this will help or not. Using MMC, it shouldn't matter, but I've run into this when remapping MMC controls to CCs/NRPNs. Do the buttons themselves have a programmable state? That is, can they be set to something like Normal, Momentary, Toggle, Step ...?

In working with (earlier) control surfaces and remapping, I found that adjusting these states helped to get expected behavior. For example, Play/Stop would be a two-state setting, while Rewind would be a 'one-shot'. It may be setup a certain way in the controller template, or the control surface overlay. Something to explore, anyway.

I don't know whether this will help or not. Using MMC, it shouldn't matter, but I've run into this when remapping MMC controls to CCs/NRPNs. Do the buttons themselves have a programmable state? That is, can they be set to something like Normal, Momentary, Toggle, Step ...?

Good point about the MMC stuff...the buttons do have state (momentary, toggle, etc). The PCR is quite programmable!! I plan to fully explore that stuff to see whether the messages and states are correct. I can always copy the Sonar template into another slot and make the necessary fixes (and then share it with everybody).

Your observation about this requiring some tweaking is accurate. It takes persistence, patience and a little know-how to get what you want. There's a lot of power under the covers in the PCR.

Sonar's MMC is somewhat documented...some of these features should be fixable.

http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/Docs/MMCandSYSX.asp