Chevy
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too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
I have an instrumental portion of a song with busy fast lead guitar riff with open low strings in Eb, a heavy tom beat on the rack drums, and a walking bass all competing down in the 80-200 hz (roughly speaking) area. The toms and bass sound fine together, but adding the guitar riff makes for blurring of that portion of the song. They work together ok for the rest of the song. Just that instrumental is very busy and blurred. What to do ? Any frequencies eq'd out seems to detract from the feel too much. This must be a common problem, but I can't seem to find a compromise that works.
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batsbrew
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/18 21:38:41
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carve, with extreme prejudice. find, on line, a chart, that shows the frequency range of all instruments, and where they share the center freq, shift one to the left, one to the right... where the freqs overlap, roll them off of one, while leaving the other to take over there... etc, etc, ad naseum, rinse and repeat, after 10,000 hours of doing this, you will be an expert. in other words, there are no shortcuts, but to sit and learn by doing. get SPAN. study. listen trust your mixing environment, or change/improve it. get better monitors. the list is long.......
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mesayre
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/18 23:45:44
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☄ Helpfulby tlw 2016/01/19 17:09:50
I would echo batsbrew and add one thing: After you've made some adjustments, walk away for a while. I find it's easy to feel like something is missing right after you've removed it, but you might find you don't miss it when you come back later and try to listen more objectively to the whole song.
Mike Sayre Composer, Horn Player Sonar Platinum, Win10x64 My new album, Music for Icebergs, is now on iTunes
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Lord Tim
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/19 01:58:25
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☄ Helpfulby tagruvto 2016/01/20 11:22:11
One thing that any songwriter hates to hear (myself included) is "does the arrangement need to be like this? Could it be changed to make the parts work better together?" I'm as precious about parts as the next guy - probably more so - but sometimes it's wise to take a step back when things aren't working or they're stepping over each other and reevaluate the arrangement. Rather than EQ, could you let an instrument breathe by either stopping or simplifying what's stepping on it? But if the parts are absolutely set in stone, both of those replies are dead on the money.
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Chevy
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/19 14:40:08
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10-4 on all that, guys... good advice. The arrangement works great live, and don't want to change it... I will get the scalpel out and try further carving. I am new at this, and yes, I can see in 10,000 hours I'll probably have it figured out. One other good point there batsbrew... my monitors. when comparing my mix with other similar genre pro produced songs on my car stereo, mine are bass heavy, with some extra mud and tom resonance. This doesn't show up on my monitors well. Wondering what the least expensive pair of monitors I can get that will do a decent job. I have a great audiophile pre and power amp, so don't need powered monitors, but don't even know if they are an option nowadays... If that's the case, any suggestions for "entry level high quality" monitors ?
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dmbaer
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/19 16:37:50
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tlw
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/19 17:18:45
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Chevy Wondering what the least expensive pair of monitors I can get that will do a decent job.
What counts as "expensive" and as "a decent job" are very mobile targets where monitors are concerned. The size of the room makes a big difference to suitable monitors as well. In a small room, for example, there's little point choosing monitors with lots of bass because the room acoustics won't allow it to develop well and there'll be problems with standing waves. In a small room monitors that roll off low bass can be better than ones that don't. Personally I don't worry too much about sub-bass frequencies because I tend to roll off everything below a bass guitar and generally place the lowest bass around the 100Hz mark. Most domestic reproduction systems can't really handle frequencies below around 100Hz so anything lower won't be heard on those systems, and while cheap sub-woofer setups might produce the frequencies they often have terrible control over them and wallow around. If you're mixing for a club sound system of course then things are different. Not all highly regarded monitors are full-range or flat frequency response, the infamous Yamaha NS10 being a good example. They had little bass, not much treble and lots of mids but were widely favoured at one time, presumably because if it sounded OK on an NS10 it probably sounded better than OK on anything else. If you ask about monitors in the hardware forum you'll get lots of suggestions. Searching the hardware forum for relevant topics will get you even more. It does help to have an idea of size of room and available budget though. One trick that might help is this. If your tracks are bass heavy compared to commercial recordings that have the kind of sound you're after import a few suitable CD tracks into Sonar along with a bounce of your final mix. Run the commercial tracks to one sub-bus and your own to another. Put a meter such as Span on each of the busses and use them to compare the eq curve of the commercial mix with that of your own, and try adjusting your track's eq until it's similar to the commercial recordings.
post edited by tlw - 2016/01/19 17:32:02
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Lord Tim
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/19 23:34:23
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☄ Helpfulby ricoskyl 2016/01/20 12:47:03
I'd definitely look into your listening environment first and foremost. You may not be hearing what you think you're hearing if you're getting comb filtering and phase issues from sound bouncing off of the walls. Then look into your speakers. Do commercial mixes sound OK on there? Then the problem is your mix. If they sound too boomy or too thin, then it's either your environment or your speakers. If you've dampened the room a bit so you're cutting out a lot of reflective surfaces and things still sound wrong with a commercial mix, a quick 'n' dirty fix is to strap an EQ over your output and adjust it until you get it sounding how you like it. Not a perfect solution but it'll get you most of the way there. And finally your mix. One you get commercial stuff sounding good, that's the one thing left. Just bear in mind that frequencies can really build up fast when you start layering. A fat tom sound is killer, so is a fat bass sound, and so is a thick guitar sound. But together, that equals mud. Guitars especially really don't need a lot of low end when they're in a mix. They sound thin and crap solo'd but when they're in context, your ears fill in the blanks when they hear them with bass and kick drums. So be aggressive with this and then bring back what sounds like it's missing after you've solved the problem. If that all fails and you really can't live without everything sounding pretty fat, then you need to turn to stuff like multiband compression, etc. but save that for a last resort. 99% of the time, good EQ will do the job perfectly fine.
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Guitarhacker
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/20 09:02:46
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Words to live and mix by: Nothing is sacred. Less is More. Short explanation: Everything in a song can be cut, edited, removed, changed... not much is carved in stone and use only what you really, really, need to use to accomplish the goal. Then re-assess and reapply the rules previously stated.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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mettelus
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/20 09:50:02
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Instruments being out of tune with each other stick out in that region as well, compounded by tuning being more difficult on lower frequencies. Another thing worth trying is using Melodyne to force pitch center on that passage, but the cutting/notching mentioned above would come high on my list too.
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Lynn
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/20 12:19:06
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Panning can help separate those competing frequencies. Make it wide if it works in the song.
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gswitz
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/20 12:41:24
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Don't forget shelf setting in EQ nodes. You can lower a range evenly. Try that on the guitar maybe.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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ricoskyl
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/20 13:01:54
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I'm not sure if this applies, but logically I would think that side chain compression might help, Chevy. That way you could limit some of the tracks behind--ducking subtly--as others peak without too much impact on the overall arrangement. Naturally the acoustic environment for monitoring is the first step, otherwise any adjustments you make by ear won't be true.
If you want to make enemies, try to change something. -Woodrow T. WilsonTurbulence is a life force. It is opportunity. Let’s love turbulence and use it for change. -Ramsay Clark ----------------------Sonar Platinum Win 10 x64 on HP Pavilion i7 5500 12Gb RAM, Tascam US-16x08, NVidia 840 8Gb vram, Multi-Screen, Multi-Touch
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fret_man
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/20 13:14:54
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Also, psycho-acoustically the fundamental of a note doesn't have to be present. It can be EQ'd out and the brain fills it in by using the notes' harmonics. I would think you could HPF the guitar and just let the bass/drums provide all that low frequency content. The guitar will still be "heard" playing those low notes.
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bitflipper
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/20 15:09:34
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Sometimes the mixing desk becomes a battlefield triage tent. Who's most likely to punch you in the face, the drummer or the bass player? You can only save one of them, the other has to die. Start with the string part. It'll survive the most high-pass filtering. Then analyze the frequency spectra of the toms and bass (I like to use MMultiAnalyzer for this). You'll likely find that it's just within a certain band that they're conflicting. You'll have to experiment to determine which can better tolerate giving up that band. If all else fails, use sidechain compression to let one dominate the other.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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bapu
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/20 15:28:43
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Guitarhacker Words to live and mix by: Nothing is sacred. Less is More. Short explanation: Everything in a song can be cut, edited, removed, changed... not much is carved in stone and use only what you really, really, need to use to accomplish the goal. Then re-assess and reapply the rules previously stated.
Yeah, Jimmy Page did not NEED all those guitar tracks.
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gswitz
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/20 15:43:02
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Who's Jimmy Page? Oh a musician? oh ok
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/20 16:37:42
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Lord Tim has the right idea and it is all about the arrangement first and foremost and I mean what are the parts actually saying. I bet too may parts are overlapping each other instead of weaving in and out of each other. EQ and compression and stuff are all poor relations to actually sorting out the arrangement. What a great producer does is cut the music around a lot. I bet I could cut the parts up in such a way that the same phrases and intentions are applied but instead hardly anything is overlapping or playing at the same time. You can be too precious about what you have played. If you handed this section over to a top producer the first thing they would be doing is removing unwanted overlapping stuff. You need to create the air and see what I have called the black backdrop behind the music. If you cannot see the black backdrop or it becomes a grey wash type of backdrop you have simply got too much going on. When you get this stuff right you can actually have solid EQ and much more fuller sounding parts that have much more weight and body to them. Hacking out stuff EQ wise to make things audible is a poor way to do it. You end up with thin sounding parts.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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gswitz
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/21 09:08:28
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Jeff Evans You need to create the air and see what I have called the black backdrop behind the music.
My backdrop is fingerprinted using rainbow colors and jelly beans.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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michaelhanson
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/21 09:08:29
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bitflipper Sometimes the mixing desk becomes a battlefield triage tent. Who's most likely to punch you in the face, the drummer or the bass player? You can only save one of them, the other has to die.
Yikes! Ed...we better lie LOW for a while. (See what I did there!) Arrangement is key. Less clutter.
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batsbrew
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/21 11:21:26
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but if you DO have an arrangement, that is TOO dense, you must learn how to do complementary Eq.
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emeraldsoul
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/21 19:00:17
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Sometimes if I have these clashes, I like to into a part (guitar riff, perhaps) in isolation. At the beginning of a song, bring it in, by itself, or nearly so. Keep it prominent for 8 or so bars - the listener will get used to it being there, nice and up front. Then when you add the next element, you can drop the guitar 1 db or so, the listener will know it's there because they are used to its being there. You can raise volume on the next element. When you bring in #3, lower number two. etc. etc. This in addition to panning/eq can help unmash the parts. And as they say, for most people it's all about the vocal anyway. cheers, -Tom
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Jeff Evans
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/21 19:27:25
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I am not against complimentary EQ at all. I think it is an important aspect of mixing. Because as Bats says some mixes are dense. But arrangement changing is really a strong and powerful way to go about it instead. Many bands overplay (that is why they sound amateur) and so do we as we are tracking and stuff. What all the great songs have in common is the use of minimal parts and statements that still convey the message really well. Somehow there is air in between or the black backdrop becomes visible. I found this when I took over from a drummer in a Roy Orbsion tribute show band. They gave me some CD's to listen to and it was the band playing some of their last gigs before I took over. What happened though was everyone in the band were taking far too many liberties and everyone was overplaying to blazes. (tempos also went right out the window and were way too fast, horrible) When I went right back to the original tracks it was very obvious. I made noise at the rehearsals and suggested we get right back to the original parts and I mean exactly as they were. (and tempos) After some work the music sounded 100 times better! You see Orbison had great producers all along the way who agonised the parts and worked all that out so my theory was simply lets listen to it again and get it right back to that point. We did not allow it to deviate ever after that and it sounded fantastic for over 5 years. Arrangements! (Listen to Kraftwerk. I know not everyone's cup of tea style wise but in terms of only the minimum being there it is a real eye opener!! He was a master at this. It teaches you how to keep arrangemets sparse and powerful and fat too. No complimentary EQ going on there because almost nothing overlaps) emeraldsoul also makes a very good point. Once parts are established you can turn them down and more than 1 dB as well. Even a 3 dB change when something else comes in still sounds like it is still there and in the picture.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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Lord Tim
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/22 08:20:54
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Another real world example is my main band LORD. If you ever listen to us (link in the signature below), the first thing you'll hear is a LOT of layers, like literally hundreds of vocal layers, up to 25 guitar tracks, synths, loops, sometimes 2 different bass tracks, and usually very fast and busy parts, especially drumming wise where the kicks can be very full on. Mixing that is a HUGE challenge, let me tell you! But where possible, yes - the arrangement favours the most prominent element. Is the guitar riff the key? If so, does it REALLY need the kick drums to follow every note? Can the bass do something in a different octave? Hang on a note? Stop entirely? And yes, sometimes it's absolutely necessary to be that busy. You'll have a very proggy tech riff where everything is playing - the guitars and bass are mirrored over the top of a double kick section, with orchestration and vocal adlibs - and that's crucial to getting the intent of that part across. It's in those places that you really need to put your objective engineer hat on and decide what needs to take focus most of all, and put any ego aside (and as the lead vocalist and guitarist that also does the keyboards, that's a hard ask for me! HAHA!) But yeah, some great suggestions in this thread and things I've pulled out pretty often when I manage to write myself into a tangled mess! One last thing to consider is your ears lie. I think I mentioned in anther thread somewhere that I made a complete disaster area of our first proper album back in the 90s. I listened to each track in isolation, and got everything sounding absolutely MASSIVE for each track on its own, and then naively sat there like a drooling idiot wondering why it all sounded like a muddy mess once everything was all combined in the mix, and then every change I made after that was just more tangling. I'd turn up the guitars and you'd lose the kicks. I'd turn up the kicks and then the bass was getting lost. I'd turn up the bass and then the guitars sounded wimpy. So I'd turn up the guitars and... repeat from step one, watching the other band members getting more and more angry I'm wasting our recording budget. That's just half of it. The other half is your ears really get attuned to what you're listening to, and it's a very distorted view of reality. This same album is a good example. We finally got something we all could live with (barely) and took it to get mastered. We put it next to the reference tracks and everything else we listened to sounded wrong and kind of thin and midrangey. In actual fact, everything else was fine (of course it was, since it was all done by pros with a huge budget), and it was our stuff with no mids and a sloppy low end. But none of us could hear it objectively anymore. You really need constant reality checks with commercial mixes as you go to keep your brain in check. Changing anything, even for the better, will sound wrong if you're caught up in your own mix. So cutting the lows on the guitars to carve space will make them sound bad if you're used to that mud being there, but if you compared it to a commercial mix, you'd probably find that's exactly what they did to get that to sound so good. Anyway, just a couple more things to consider.
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michaelhanson
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/22 10:39:50
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Jeff Evans I found this when I took over from a drummer in a Roy Orbsion tribute show band. They gave me some CD's to listen to and it was the band playing some of their last gigs before I took over. What happened though was everyone in the band were taking far too many liberties and everyone was overplaying to blazes. (tempos also went right out the window and were way too fast, horrible) When I went right back to the original tracks it was very obvious. I made noise at the rehearsals and suggested we get right back to the original parts and I mean exactly as they were. (and tempos) After some work the music sounded 100 times better! You see Orbison had great producers all along the way who agonised the parts and worked all that out so my theory was simply lets listen to it again and get it right back to that point. We did not allow it to deviate ever after that and it sounded fantastic for over 5 years. Arrangements!
I agree with you Jeff. I started playing Live again about 6 months ago with our Worship Band. I noticed immediately that when everyone is over playing their parts, it became a mess. Not only with overlapping of instruments, but timing was all over the place. The band Leader has made the comment that when I play Bass the overall timing of the band seems to be in sync, more than when some of the other guys play. I told him that my focus is to stay in the pocket, support the drums and rhythm section and not to try to do runs up and down the neck. They have taken notice and seem to sound better as a result.
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Rbh
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/23 00:21:32
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I remember reading an interview with Ken Scott. He said the most universally ugly frequency is 200hz. So he basically does a cut @ 200 on almost everything. I didn't know if it was some sort of joke so I tried it and damn if it doesn't make a great place to start.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/23 16:10:54
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Rbh I remember reading an interview with Ken Scott. He said the most universally ugly frequency is 200hz. So he basically does a cut @ 200 on almost everything. I didn't know if it was some sort of joke so I tried it and damn if it doesn't make a great place to start.
This is a very good point. I tend to apply the 200-300Hz scoop over the whole mix rather than trying to do it on every channel or track. And yes it often makes a mix instantly more clear and nicer. There does seem to be a build up around that area that many forget about. On Harrison Mixbus would you believe on the master buss is a real nice EQ and the control in the middle is centered right around this area. It might be call Mids or similar but it is not. It is around 300 Hz instead. All you have to do is move this control to the left and all the mud is gone! Excellent. If you do this manually though you need to be careful of the shape of the bell around this area and how deep you make this notch. You can also overdo it too and find you are sounding too thin as well.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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batsbrew
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/23 19:33:28
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yes, i'd agree with jeff on using the scoop.... on a parametric, i'd start with a real High Q, and a real deep BOOST to find the exact center point of the mud... then, go the opposite way, but go to a shallow Q (like 4) and only do about 1-2db of cut..... to taste..... i tend to eq individual tracks, to get rid of mud and maximize the low end, sometimes it's confusing solo'ing a track to do that, but after some time, you kinda KNOW you are hearing mud on tracks you know don't need that freeq......
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sharke
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Re: too many cats in the sack - 3 instruments competing
2016/01/27 17:28:11
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Regarding weaving parts in the arrangement, this is why I love working with MIDI in the piano roll so much. You can have multiple parts showing on the same roll and instantly see how they're clashing with each other (both in timing and register) and rewrite them so that they mesh together. Sometimes you can write very intricate weaving parts like this which sound very dense while never stepping on each other.
And register, there's another area to look at. Very easy to invert chords note by note into a higher or lower register so that they don't clash with other parts. You just take the bottom note of the chord and drag it up and octave (or the top note down an octave) - rinse and repeat until the chord is in a register which works better. And sometimes these new inversions add a totally different flavor to the sound.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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