Helpful Replywhat the guitar companies don't want you to know

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DrLumen
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/05 15:07:07 (permalink)
spacey
DrLumen
I'm not a guitar person but I could see how certain woods and finishes would affect acoustic instruments.
 
In electrics perhaps denser woods would sound brighter due to sympathetic resonance to the other strings resulting in more harmonics? I would not be surprised to find that a glass body guitar would sound different than a plywood guitar. In the end though doesn't it just come down to durability? Again, not a guitar person but a plywood body would concern me due to possible warping and strange effects based on temperature and humidity.
 
Oh well, I'm just running off at the mouth... much like the guy in the video.




I didn't want you nor your question to be ignored so I'll share some thoughts.
 
No it doesn't just come down to durability although that is a consideration. Oil finish is popular and as with most finishes offers some protection. 
I think 'stability' is much more important. Even if it is a well built guitar it still requires protective care by the owner- as we know. 
 
I enjoy talking with luthiers about woods- application of, wood grains, working with, and many other aspects that I find much more interesting than the old hat opinions about what percentage of this and that- a boring trip that gets to nowhere. 
I mean, a luthier examines the woods considered for a build- checking grain, weight, tap tone etc. and decides whether or not to use it. Cull- just use the best that feels right at that moment. It's not like it's known that that piece of wood is going to have a percentage of this or that to the overall results. It's a choice made of many factors by one trying to get the best they can from the materials at hand. 
 
One building few guitars a year that may be depending on them to sell can't afford to experiment or take unnecessary risks with material choices or methods/tools. Many of the woods used have a history of successful use. Not only for creating great sounding guitars but also appealing aesthetics. 
 
Unfortunately a lot of the woods with the appealing aesthetics are relatively expensive. There are many reasons that they are. 
Many of the woods have specific uses. That's easy to understand- a dense (heavy) wood that is oily may be perfect for an unfinished fretboard, opposed to a Maple fretboard that one would want a protective finish, but it may not be the best choice for a body/neck.
 
Balance is another important aspect. Combinations of commonly used woods and design are other important considerations. 
 
Wood grain, how the wood was cut, (flatsawn, etc) 
 
I won't go on...I only wanted to share examples of why I find conversing about "percentage of this and that" so damn boring. 
 
I would think it would be best for many to just keep it "magical". I mean; We know we can go into a store and play all of the Strats hanging on the wall, all made with the same type of woods, all with the same everything and find out that there is that one...the one that is different for unknown reasons. Unknown to the ones that built it and unknown to the ones that play it. It's magic. It's a part of building that I love. I do everything to the best of my abilities with no guarantees. It's when I plug it in and find out...wow, like magic. It somehow all came together and made this fantastic instrument. Now "stability" comes in. If I do my part and take care of it, it'll perform for many years. 
I have to say...sometimes, and fortunately for me, I've only had to backup and rewind pups twice to help correct a couple that for whatever reason...just weren't quite singing. Nice thing about an electric...one may have options to make it better. 
I've also had weird ones. Nothing magical at all and if there was magic is was black. Gave me nothing but trouble from start to finish. Had to fight with every little part to the point of wanting to trash it...but I couldn't give up and finally rewarded. Luck. My magic was stronger I reckon. 
 
Well maybe I answered your question Doc and maybe some understand why I find their "tone" opinions so boring. With no offense meant of course.


Good to know.
 
Magical or lucky instruments does make some sense though. Like car engines... If you get three engines right off the same assembly line, same engine, same parts, same specs, same builders, there will be one that is faster than the others and one that may be a lemon. I had never thought of it in terms of instruments.

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DrLumen
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/05 15:07:14 (permalink)
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-When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

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DrLumen
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/05 15:07:27 (permalink)
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-When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

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SteveStrummerUK
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/05 15:16:16 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jamesg1213 2016/11/05 15:37:05
ampfixer
I blame Trump.




I blame Trumpton ....
 


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#34
spacey
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/05 17:26:38 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby michaelhanson 2016/11/06 08:24:03
DrLumen
 
Good to know.
 
Magical or lucky instruments does make some sense though. Like car engines... If you get three engines right off the same assembly line, same engine, same parts, same specs, same builders, there will be one that is faster than the others and one that may be a lemon. I had never thought of it in terms of instruments.




It is no doubt just my opinion Doc but it's based on my experiences so far.
 
I can give a scenario about how the "magic" may happen;
 
The luthier grabs a Maple board to examine to make a neck- checks the grain, taps it, feels the weight etc. and decides it does sound off...it's good to go...
Now at that point there is no way to know how that neck or how much that neck is going to contribute to the final tone of the instrument. After all- he's fixing to resize it, drill holes in it etc.  - You know it's going to be a completely different piece of wood when he's done.
 
Well that same thing is going to happen with the body blank too. 
 
Easy to see he's taking his best educated guess that the woods will make a guitar...but he also knows it could be just Ok or it could be that special one, that one that just has something different. He also knows it may be just Ok to him and that something special to someone else. After all, the player is a major part of how that guitar will sound.
 
Now imagine in a factory; they have stacks of neck and body blanks. They grab 'em and go. Of course the finer woods have been culled/ separated as we know- such as Paul Reed Smiths private stock. (not saying those pieces stand a better chance of making that special guitar- just higher grades of wood...to the person grading them)
With them doing their snatch and grab from the stacks every so often there is one that is different...why? I don't know. Maybe it's just those pieces of woods had the right makeup and by pure luck got matched-up together. Like magic. 
 
Just the way I currently see it. Maybe John Page or some other "real" luthier would say I'm in left field but until they do...I like my theory. lol
Now if I'm wrong?   Well then it would seem to me that after all these years it would be common knowledge that a board of this type with grain like this matched with body wood with grain.....and there would be a line of Strats hanging on the walls and everyone of them would be magical.  Sheesh...how could that even happen...what two boards are even going to be identical? 
 
I've had magic happen in my shop. I love it when it happens and if I could control it...I don't think I'd want to. 
#35
Moshkito
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/05 23:00:12 (permalink)
Hi,
 
Kinda weird to see this actually. I managed 2 restaurants for 7 some years, and my thoughts always were that you had to be honest with the customer and the employees, and I did not need to lie and cheat to get the job done.
 
I always had a great record with the State health authorities and the place was clean and I even had high school kids walk through with their class to see the place. You just take care of the things you need to and do not find excuses.
 
I have no issues with ... for example ... Fender and Gibson having a Mexican brand that costs less ... and surprisingly enough, not even many folks talk bad about those instruments. I might even ask the question if the guitar would last 25 years like the original, and in most cases it seems to ... and each and every time I stop by the Pawn shop (once in a decade!), I still see a lot of worn down guitars, which means they were played! Practice or not!
 
This line gets blurred ... and badly ... in the software business, and at this time, there is no state, or congress to help protect the people that are buying nothing from someone. And this, I hope to see it addressed before I depart from this bus!
 
Other than that ... it's like advise ... you're scared or a turkey, when you can not tell if some advise comes to you ... it can come from a Mac Truck, a Tonka Truck, a child, a Mosh, an idiot, and some guru out there ... but if you do not have the inner base to know the difference ... of course it won't matter, and the finger points out that way!
 
If a company does not want you to know, and has to lie to get something sold ... eventually they will pay for it ... it will come around sooner or later! Ask Volkswagen ... or Barclays ... and another big bank is next!

Music is not about notes and chords! My poem is not about the computer or monitor or letters! It's about how I was able to translate it from my insides! 
#36
ampfixer
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/06 13:46:44 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby spacey 2016/11/06 14:35:54
Spacey hit on a real important point. When you scale up production you want to have some consistency in your builds. People generally know what a Les Paul or Strat will sound like because the people at the factory go through the wood and select the stuff that's average. Not to say it's not good, it's just that they aim for the middle of the spec for weight, moisture and figuring. If it's too light, too heavy, too ugly or too pretty it gets pulled off the regular production pile and diverted to a higher or lower level model. I learned this by working with an instrument builder to improve their process control program.
 
I've also read interviews with Leo Fender where he states that he discouraged the use of highly figured wood because customers would come to expect it and the availability was spotty. But Spacey is spot on. Magic does happen and none of the builders I know can predict when it will happen. It's all about experience and years of working with wood.

Regards, John 
 I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps.
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#37
spacey
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/06 14:35:46 (permalink)
Thank you John. It's nice to have a questionable opinions supported. 
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michaelhanson
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/06 15:11:44 (permalink)
spacey
Thank you John. It's nice to have a questionable opinions supported. 




I have agreed with everything you have stated, so far, Spacey.  I haven't had much to add, because you have pretty much nailed it.  I have even swapped out necks on Fenders and found that sometimes, they just seem to come together where the parts match up to make a better playing guitar.  I have one set up pickups that sounds incredible in one Strat and average in another.  Sometimes the stars just seem to align.
post edited by michaelhanson - 2016/11/07 06:54:24

Mike

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#39
spacey
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/06 19:12:53 (permalink)
Mike, I've received emails of your marking. Thank you. I'm glad I'm making some sense. 
I did some partcasters years ago. Lot of fun mixing and matching.
 
 
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eph221
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/06 19:53:16 (permalink)
Money always makes things complicated.  DOH!
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craigb
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/06 20:50:01 (permalink)
eph221
Money always makes things complicated.  DOH!




Then why was my life so complicated when I didn't have any??? 

 
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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Slugbaby
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/08 09:55:54 (permalink)
Moshkito
 
I have no issues with ... for example ... Fender and Gibson having a Mexican brand that costs less ... and surprisingly enough, not even many folks talk bad about those instruments. I might even ask the question if the guitar would last 25 years like the original, and in most cases it seems to ... and each and every time I stop by the Pawn shop (once in a decade!), I still see a lot of worn down guitars, which means they were played! Practice or not!
ll come around sooner or later! Ask Volkswagen ... or Barclays ... and another big bank is next!




Mosh, i can back that up.
In 1991 I bought a MIM Telecaster.  I only replaced the pickups.
25 years later, it's still the best guitar (for me) that i've ever played.  Other musicians also seem to really like it too.  I've had a dozen other guitars in this time, some fancy high-end Gibsons & Fenders, as well as some lesser ones.  I've played dozens (at least) of others' guitars.  And none have the "magic" that's in that '91 MIM Tele.
 
I don't know whether it's the wood, the pickups, or the familiarity of knowing every inch of it.  Probably all...

http://www.MattSwiftMusic.com
 
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#43
michaelhanson
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/08 16:49:46 (permalink)
The consistency and the build quality of the instruments that are coming out right now, in my opinion, are incredible.  I love my MIM Strat as well, built in the early 90's.  I loved the neck so much, I was afraid to purchase and put a new neck on it.  I finally bought a new neck 6 months ago, rather than do a refret....its even nicer than the original that was on that Strat.
 
People have knocked Gibson's for ever.  I have owned 3 Les Paul's.  The 2013 Les Paul Studio I traded for just recently, is probably the best made Gibson Les Paul that I have owned.  Better built by far than the first LP Standard that I bought new in 1982.  

Mike

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#44
BobF
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/08 17:03:31 (permalink)
Both of my LPs are very well built.  So is my Indonesian PRS SE.
My '99 '57 Beauty Historic is absolute perfection.  It's a shame it's so darn heavy.
 
IMO we're in a grande time for guitar quality all across the price spectrum.

Bob  --
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Moshkito
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/08 18:34:14 (permalink)
Slugbaby
Moshkito
 
I have no issues with ... for example ... Fender and Gibson having a Mexican brand that costs less ... and surprisingly enough, not even many folks talk bad about those instruments. I might even ask the question if the guitar would last 25 years like the original, and in most cases it seems to ... and each and every time I stop by the Pawn shop (once in a decade!), I still see a lot of worn down guitars, which means they were played! Practice or not!
ll come around sooner or later! Ask Volkswagen ... or Barclays ... and another big bank is next!




Mosh, i can back that up.
In 1991 I bought a MIM Telecaster.  I only replaced the pickups.
25 years later, it's still the best guitar (for me) that i've ever played.  Other musicians also seem to really like it too.  I've had a dozen other guitars in this time, some fancy high-end Gibsons & Fenders, as well as some lesser ones.  I've played dozens (at least) of others' guitars.  And none have the "magic" that's in that '91 MIM Tele.
 
I don't know whether it's the wood, the pickups, or the familiarity of knowing every inch of it.  Probably all...




And I wish, in retrospect, that I had NEVER swapped my Gibson EB-0 for a Fender Jazz ... the Gibbie, with the pegs downwards, had a nice and comfy feel to it, and I did not recognize that at the time. The Fender was nice, but it felt like a school guitar rather than something that you get attached to and comfy with. That Fender, though, stayed with me for 25 years ... go figure, however, I wish I had gotten me a 2nd bass, instead of getting rid of it. I wanted an EB again, perhaps in getting that feel, and the EB-3 is a Long Scale, and I have never really gotten a good feel for that thing at all, yet!

Music is not about notes and chords! My poem is not about the computer or monitor or letters! It's about how I was able to translate it from my insides! 
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eph221
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/10 14:04:58 (permalink)
craigb
eph221
Money always makes things complicated.  DOH!




Then why was my life so complicated when I didn't have any??? 




That's how either/or works...*two sides of the same coin*.  The opposite implies it's own opposite.  Both co-exist in the same logical space.   Did everyone hear my new single, Black Hole?  It's short and sweet! https://soundcloud.com/da...-76324214/black-hole-1
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craigb
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/10 16:19:22 (permalink)
eph221
craigb
eph221
Money always makes things complicated.  DOH!




Then why was my life so complicated when I didn't have any??? 




That's how either/or works...*two sides of the same coin*.  The opposite implies it's own opposite.  Both co-exist in the same logical space.   Did everyone hear my new single, Black Hole?  It's short and sweet! https://soundcloud.com/da...-76324214/black-hole-1




Ah, yes, just like Democrats & Republicans.  But those are TOS-violation bait and two reasons why I can't stand politics.
 
(Nice shameless plug though!)

 
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
#48
spacey
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/17 08:29:41 (permalink)
michaelhanson
The consistency and the build quality of the instruments that are coming out right now, in my opinion, are incredible.  I love my MIM Strat as well, built in the early 90's.  I loved the neck so much, I was afraid to purchase and put a new neck on it.  I finally bought a new neck 6 months ago, rather than do a refret....its even nicer than the original that was on that Strat.
 
People have knocked Gibson's for ever.  I have owned 3 Les Paul's.  The 2013 Les Paul Studio I traded for just recently, is probably the best made Gibson Les Paul that I have owned.  Better built by far than the first LP Standard that I bought new in 1982.  




Things have changed big time in our lifetime.
 
When I was starting out nobody I knew ever worked on a guitar. Nobody ever changed anything except the strings.
IMO the internet made a big change for people. The opportunity to get parts, tools, ideas and learn opened the door.
Selection and competition boomed.
Competition now includes independents to these large companies. Everyone is forced into creating a quality product if they want to continue making them.
Quality control and "magic" still allows for products that will satisfy a large percent for those that haven't acquired the experience and knowledge to recognize details and for those that know quality and "magic" when they play it.
Yes the quality and magic can be found in all price ranges and that is why, IMO, people recommend playing it before you buy. Of course one can hassle with returning/exchanging in the search if they choose.
 
When I read, "American made .....are better than ........made" I think they don't realize how things are or may have had a bad experience and just generalize...which doesn't help them find the truth. (if they're looking for it)
 
 
#49
ampfixer
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/17 12:59:51 (permalink)
The only thing I really wish would change in modern guitars is the finish. I hate poly finishes, particularly on necks. I recently picked up a 60th anniversary Am Std strat and it's one of the best I've ever owned. It has a combination of old and new tech that really works for me. The only problem is the thick finish on the neck.
 
I've read that environmental concerns are the reason lacquer was abandoned, but I don't buy it. Gibson still uses lacquer, as do most of the boutique builders. Poly finishes are the main reason I've never bonded with a PRS, arguably one of the best brands out there. With Fender I can slap on a new neck, not so for a set neck instrument.
 
I suspect the real reason behind Poly is simply cost and the ability of machines to do finishing. IF you've ever tried to strip a Poly finish you know how difficult it is. The stuff is indestructible.

Regards, John 
 I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps.
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#50
spacey
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/17 13:12:04 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2016/11/21 14:40:11
John I think it was time. It takes a long time for nitrocellulose to setup just to work. It's curing forever.
It is hazardous and explosive so I wear a respirator when I spray it. If it's in a closed area one needs to have an explosion proof exhaust fan too.
On my guitars with an oil finish I have been spraying nitro on the face of the head because of my nameplate. It's like chrome/metal and trying to cover with oil messes with it.
 
Even though they've gone to quicker finishes one can still get nitro or oil finish ...at least from Fender.
 
But time and hazards were the reasons for alternatives.
 
 
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craigb
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/18 04:33:15 (permalink)
What's wrong with a natural neck and Tung oil? 
 
I hate those poly necks where it feels like your hand doesn't want to move...

 
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#52
spacey
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/18 08:41:05 (permalink)
craigb
What's wrong with a natural neck and Tung oil? 
 
I hate those poly necks where it feels like your hand doesn't want to move...




Sorry Craig. Not sure who you're asking nor why you have that question.
Would you quote where somebody said there was something wrong with a natural neck with oil finish?
Or are just asking...if so;
Natural with oil finish is my preference. What's different about it, not wrong, is that with an oil finish on a guitar-neck or body- in time it will probably need attention. One may need to apply more oil and it's easy to get bad results. It also takes time. 
If it's just the back of the neck not so bad but if it's the whole guitar then it's best to disassemble the guitar.
There are conditions so time the guitar is out of service is hard to say. 
 
I'm trying to answer you because that little guy seems to be looking up at my last post.
#53
craigb
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/18 12:14:14 (permalink)
Yeah, just asking.  I would have quoted if someone had said there was something wrong, but it hadn't been mentioned and I was curious if that was because it was a bad choice (though I love how it feels compared to the other coatings).

 
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BassDaddy
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/18 20:32:27 (permalink)
kennywtelejazz
I've seen that video before ....Aye Carrumba ........what a crock 
IMHO, the best part of the video is the first 5 seconds ...
After the luscious scantly clad female eye candy on the couch lumped me in with all the guitar players of the world and called me"one of the B..itches " ...I did what every self respecting guitar player would do ....
I checked to see if I had her phone number which thankfully I didn't have , Then I shut the video off and played my guitar
Life's to short to let some Highly opinionated soft spoken scraggly bearded  u tube Debby Downer standing in front of a white writing board with crappy unreadable writing  EFF  up for me what I have spent my whole life enjoying and playing ...The Guitar ...
 
Kenny


I love it when someone says something smart. (Kenny, not the video guy)

It's Bass, not Bass.
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#55
eph221
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/18 23:09:07 (permalink)
Moshkito
Mosvalve
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVmFlzksMCE 




Well, if this is the Kmart or Sears version of a guitar ... I can handle this ... but a Fender? or Gibson?
 
Too many years of loyalty to great players and I doubt they would be stupid enough to do that. Even the Fender stuff made in Mexico, which is lower priced, gets good reviews and I can not say that I have ever heard anyone talk those two down at all!




pedro, unfortunately it's true.  They're that dumb.  But the music market is so ubiquitous and  profitable even the stupid ones can survive.
#56
eph221
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/18 23:16:29 (permalink)
craigb
eph221
Money always makes things complicated.  DOH!




Then why was my life so complicated when I didn't have any??? 




There are plenty of people who aren't like me.  You may be one?  Living simply is the goal.  Money makes it complex.  That isn't to say that one can't lead a simple life and have money.  But having very little makes it easy.  Having alot makes it harder.  There are those who are ruled by money...very selfish people (as any adult will tell you).  
#57
Moshkito
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/19 10:50:18 (permalink)
eph221
... There are those who are ruled by money...very selfish people (as any adult will tell you).  
...



My biggest gripe has always been watching a musician, think that he sounds better because he is playing a 5K Martin, than a $200 dollar bobodud. As if the quality of the song itself and the singer, improves because of the instrument, and that is an illusion ... and though some of us that do studio stuff may disagree, in the end, you and I both can not tell if that is a Stradivarius, or just Jean-Luc Ponty. 
 
It's not the instrument ... it's the person behind it ... and anyone thinking that only his/her instrument does it for them ... I don't know ... I don't see Peter Hammill with 10K guitars, and he does just fine.
 
It can't be the instrument alone!

Music is not about notes and chords! My poem is not about the computer or monitor or letters! It's about how I was able to translate it from my insides! 
#58
eph221
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/19 11:00:19 (permalink)
Moshkito
eph221
... There are those who are ruled by money...very selfish people (as any adult will tell you).  
...



My biggest gripe has always been watching a musician, think that he sounds better because he is playing a 5K Martin, than a $200 dollar bobodud. As if the quality of the song itself and the singer, improves because of the instrument, and that is an illusion ... and though some of us that do studio stuff may disagree, in the end, you and I both can not tell if that is a Stradivarius, or just Jean-Luc Ponty. 
 
It's not the instrument ... it's the person behind it ... and anyone thinking that only his/her instrument does it for them ... I don't know ... I don't see Peter Hammill with 10K guitars, and he does just fine.
 
It can't be the instrument alone!




.
#59
jamesg1213
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Re: what the guitar companies don't want you to know 2016/11/19 11:20:51 (permalink)
Moshkito
 
My biggest gripe has always been watching a musician, think that he sounds better because he is playing a 5K Martin, than a $200 dollar bobodud. As if the quality of the song itself and the singer, improves because of the instrument, and that is an illusion ... and though some of us that do studio stuff may disagree, in the end, you and I both can not tell if that is a Stradivarius, or just Jean-Luc Ponty. 
 
It's not the instrument ... it's the person behind it ... and anyone thinking that only his/her instrument does it for them ... I don't know ... I don't see Peter Hammill with 10K guitars, and he does just fine.
 
It can't be the instrument alone!




My 1979 Les Paul Standard sounds considerably better than my 1980 Gibson Sonex. If I'm playing a nicer sounding instrument, I come up with nicer sounding guitar parts.

 
Jyemz
 
 
 



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#60
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