Helpful Replywhy gibson is less popular then fender these days?

MakeShift
As a young Lad, I played what ever guitar I could afford and get my hands on. Now I play what guitar feels the best in my hands and gets me to my tone the quickest, price is not as big a deal. Give me a Fender, Gibson, PRS, and what ever amp you like; I will still dial in my tone.....even if I have to stick a pedal in front of it.

...and THAT is the truth !!!!
J

When I was younger I had the sports car then the luxury car.  My mid-life crisis is how I ended up with all my studio gear as well.
 
Still searching eBay to buy some talent though...

Those are nice guitars there though, tbosco!

 
Too good for me I suppose though.
 

craigb
When I was younger I had the sports car then the luxury car.  My mid-life crisis is how I ended up with all my studio gear as well.
 
Still searching eBay to buy some talent though...

Wel sed... don't worry about the talent, just turn it up.
 
Mid life crisis indeed!! Sometimes it seems like my whole life has been a crisis but there is nothing like a bit of loud guitar for therapy. However, no matter what guitar I play or what amp I play use, I still sound like me.
In the words of DL Roth, "Too much is not enough".  
I need a new guitar and amp.
 
Julien
 
 
 

jbow
However, no matter what guitar I play or what amp I play use, I still sound like me.

Reminds me of the story where Eddie Van Halen and Ted Nugent were both set up somewhere (don't recall if it was for a concert or in a studio).  Regardless, each tried out the other's setup and both ended up sounding exactly like they normally do!  I also remember a story Walter Trout told me about how SRV started out playing through one amp (a Fender Twin?) then evolved to this complex combination of ten(!) different amps and yet he ended up sounding pretty much the same as he did with the one amp.  Heh.

craigb

jbow
However, no matter what guitar I play or what amp I play use, I still sound like me.

Reminds me of the story where Eddie Van Halen and Ted Nugent were both set up somewhere (don't recall if it was for a concert or in a studio).  Regardless, each tried out the other's setup and both ended up sounding exactly like they normally do! 

I remember reading something like that. During a soundcheck, Nugent insisted that Eddie had some special device that gave him this insane sound of his, so Eddie proceeded to show him that his sound largely comes from his fingers and that Ted Nugent through EVH's rig sounded like Ted Nugent.

So if tone comes from the fingers, then Iommi is doing more with less, ya?

As this guy... :)

 
 

That's Django, ya?

yup.

I am curious. If you are buying a Fender or Gibson, especially the expensive ones, are you buying because...
 
1) They are just better guitars?
2) Your guitar hero plays one?
3) Your non-guitar playing friends/fans have at least heard of Gibson and Fender?
4) Resale value?
5) ?
 
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, I am just curious as to what the fascination with these brands are.
 
I have played a Strat in a store a few times and I just played on my first Les Paul a few weeks ago. Nice guitars, I just don't own any of them.
 
BTW I am not in the music business and am not conducting market research for anyone lol :-)

maximumpower
I am curious. If you are buying a Fender or Gibson, especially the expensive ones, are you buying because...
 
1) They are just better guitars?
2) Your guitar hero plays one?
3) Your non-guitar playing friends/fans have at least heard of Gibson and Fender?
4) Resale value?
5) ?
 
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, I am just curious as to what the fascination with these brands are.
 
I have played a Strat in a store a few times and I just played on my first Les Paul a few weeks ago. Nice guitars, I just don't own any of them.
 
BTW I am not in the music business and am not conducting market research for anyone lol :-)

5.

>As for now, I completely agree that Gibson's popularity has dropped a lot but IMO that's easily due to their over-inflated prices and underachieving quality control!<
 
A sure recipe for bankruptcy! (We'll never die! We're too much in love with ourselves!) 
 
>what a sweet sound of seventies... "This era was so awesome, even the instruments smoked..."<
 
The 60s and 70s were phenomenal times musically for reasons I am not allowed to divulge here (sworn to secrecy), and will never be repeated. It's a shame that they were the foundation for the ____ we have today.

maximumpower
I am curious. If you are buying a Fender or Gibson, especially the expensive ones, are you buying because...
 
1) They are just better guitars?
2) Your guitar hero plays one?
3) Your non-guitar playing friends/fans have at least heard of Gibson and Fender?
4) Resale value?
5) ?
 
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, I am just curious as to what the fascination with these brands are.
 
I have played a Strat in a store a few times and I just played on my first Les Paul a few weeks ago. Nice guitars, I just don't own any of them.
 
BTW I am not in the music business and am not conducting market research for anyone lol :-)

In my case it would be the '58 custom shop plaintop RI, or whatever Gibson calls it now. So... it would be first, the way it looks, probably in "iced tea". Second, it would be because the historic RIs have a longer neck tenon like the original 50s Les Pauls did. I would buy it to play. I wish I had bought one of the GC/Gibson '58 reissues that were out a few years ago. I think they were in the 2k range and were a nice plaintop... I need a time machine!!
That is the only high end guitar I am consistently interested in. Sometimes I think I would like a Suhr Strat or a Chandler Tele but I don't think Chandler is making Teles right now. Both would be to PLAY. Maybe an Anderson Strat or Tele to play.
 
The others are so far out of my price range that is impractical to even consider them but since you asked... a late 50s Les Paul, say a 1959 flametop... they are priced so high that it could only be considered an investment for anyone who isn't insanely rich. However, a good 1964 Stratocaster, if I had the money to buy it... it would be to play it.
 
No "guitar heroes" involved with my guitar choices. If I were to buy a Marshall both the head, cab (bottom only), and speakers would be influenced by Kossoff.
 
J
 
 

I don't know, I think the prices between Fenders and Gibson's is all relative. Epiphones pretty much cover the Fender Squire and MIM Fender market. Lower end Gibson LP Studios are about equivalent to the American and American Deluxe Fender USA models. I would expect Gibson LP Standards to be a little higher price because of the mahogany wood in the bodies and necks, the maple cap wood on the bodies, binding, inlays and neck through construction. There is more expensive wood in a LP and more labor involved in this style of production. I have seen Custom Shop Strats that go for 2-3K.

I bought my first Gibson LP Standard back in 1982, seems like I remember paying right around $1,000 for it new back then. Today that guitar sells new for $2,500. What doesn't sell for more now 30 years later? Houses have at least doubled in price. Cars, boats, motorcycles, etc, have all gone up in price in the last 30 years.

How ever, if I still owned that LP Standard that I bought in 1982 today, I bet I could get almost twice what I paid for it today. I bought my Rickenbacker Bass 4003 for $950 new back in 2001 and the are selling for $1,800- 2,000 new today. That's the advantage in my mind to buying a quality instrument. They become vintage in time.

The best bang for your buck these days is buying that high end instrument on the used market. I have seen a lot of steals out there lately if I just had the extra cash on hand, this is a used buyers market right now.

Well, I do not know about Fender except to say that I think one of Eric Clapton's Fender Guitar sold to someone for well over the price to help out the charity that Clapton has with his Crossroads Festivals - something like $750,000 I think someone paid for his guitar.
 
Now, on to Gibson Guitars and actually there is too much to write about, so just a few highlights:
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...son_Guitar_Corporation

Started business in 1902.

 In 1936 Gibson introduced their first "Electric Spanish" model, the ES-150 followed by other electric instruments like steel guitars, banjos and mandolins.

n the 1950s, Gibson also produced the Tune-o-matic bridge system and its version of the humbucking pickup, the PAF ("Patent Applied For"), first released in 1957 and still sought after for its sound.

http://www.gibson.com/press/press_history.asp

1921  Gibson employee Ted McHugh, a woodworker who had sung in a group with Orville Gibson, invents two of the most important innovations in guitar history: the adjustable truss rod and the height-adjustable bridge. All Gibson instruments are still equipped with McHugh’s truss rod, and traditional jazz guitars still utilize the bridge he designed.

1952  Gibson introduces its first solidbody electric guitar, the Les Paul Model. To launch its first solidbody electric, Gibson enlists Les Paul, the biggest recording star of the early '50s and an early proponent of the solidbody guitar. The Gibson Les Paul has gone on to become the most successful “artist” guitar in history and an icon for rock and roll music.

1954  Gibson president Ted McCarty, an engineer who does not know how to play guitar, invents the tune-o-matic bridge with individually adjustable saddles. It debuts on the Les Paul Custom in 1954 and is still today the standard bridge on Gibson electric guitars.

1957  The humbucking pickup, a double-coil design, is perfected by Gibson engineer Seth Lover and installed on Gibson's top-line models. It quickly becomes an industry standard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vARFwbhLOM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjGaJj_-itE
 
Well, a guitar that could be worth $450,000 and as the last video shows, one that was worth $400,000 and now is worth $750,000 and lately not too far in the future - one worth perhaps a million.
 
Gibson still makes their guitar the old -fashioned way just like a 100 years ago. In fact instead of using Franklin Titebond glue, they are now going to go back with some models using hide glue which is way more expensive, just like guitars of very old, the way they use to make them say 100-80 years ago or so.
 
Too much to write it, but if you want to know, read the history of Gibson and watch the videos especially the last one listed.
 
 That is only part of the answer - maximumpower!
 
 

And I think a few months ago someone put up a link to plastic guitars made with not a solid plastic body but designed bodies that cost at least $3500 some probably more. So cherish that wood, because there may be only 3-d printer guitars in the future that still cost $5000 or more or whatever due to whatever like living on this Planet.

 
Plastic!
 

This is one nutty, daft and absolutely meaningless comparo. And based on a completely subjective (and tenuous, to say the least) premise. What next? Fish versus bicycles??

















Plus...everyone knows Strats rule!!!!:-)

Really? Wood will cost more, since plantation wood and trees to be good need 25 years to grow first. (usually  I think that is what they hope for).
 
And how many guitars do you think they make in a year? Report has it that 220 guitars are made a day, only 40 for the hollow-bodies or semi-hollow bodies guitars. Yearly that is somewhere around 120,000 guitars of all the models made in a year.
 
http://www.guitardaterproject.org/gibson.aspx
 
Now, I suppose Epiphone would perhaps make more a day, but the wood used in any made guitar has to be only certain wood, not any ol' wood.
So, I am sure the facts can be looked up somewhere, but when the Big Arm of the we-all-know-who says it is a limited resource and will have more laws of that effect (like the Lacey Act) then perhaps things will change.
 
No, I do not know the future and wood is used for many, many, many things and still there is plastic also in the furniture world and other things making the furniture instead of just wood, and that still leaves the question of the quality of wood and how guitars will be made. Sure it may not add up to all the total amount of wood used in the world and only a small part, but then 2x4's I don't think would make a quality guitar.
 
http://www.guitardaterproject.org/factoryList.aspx
 
Perhaps more like a 100,000 guitars if that (50,000) in a year.
 

PS: Just saw the picture of Django.  I wish he was still around.  He was a goodun.  Sweet as banana puddin.
 

The Strat sound is very thin and crisp, single coils tend to accentuate the upper range.
LP - Humbuckers are thicker and fatter, so as everyone said...it's a matter of the sound
you're after.
 
i.e. No one would argue that David Gilmour's sound was bad...he had an incredibly BIG sound (due to his
FX chain) coming out of his strats...

Same with LP's....there are myriads of players and examples of GREAT SOUND from them.

The increase in popularity of a Guitar is directly reflect by "who" is endorsing them at the moment,
to a great extent, but not always.  And also, in the case of used, who "owned" them.

That being said....Gibsons and PRS's are OUT THERE in price...as much as $15,000
Strats are less expensive, (still can be as much as $5,000) still do the job, howbeit just differently.

Guitars have an "enigma" that drives price...just as "Diamonds" or "Gold" or anything else...while technically they're
only worth as much as they cost to make...we attach "intrinsic" value based on our "perception"
It's called "marketing" and it IS quite the "Racket"....

And, as Paul Harvey says, THAT is the rest of the story...

maximumpower
I am curious. If you are buying a Fender or Gibson, especially the expensive ones, are you buying because...
 
1) They are just better guitars?
2) Your guitar hero plays one?
3) Your non-guitar playing friends/fans have at least heard of Gibson and Fender?
4) Resale value?
5) ?
 
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, I am just curious as to what the fascination with these brands are.
 
I have played a Strat in a store a few times and I just played on my first Les Paul a few weeks ago. Nice guitars, I just don't own any of them.
 
BTW I am not in the music business and am not conducting market research for anyone lol :-)

There may be reasons that players may share but that doesn't mean they each make sense to every player.
 
There are very good reasons to own at least one of each....I'll limit it to Les Paul and Strat because they are fine examples...
1. They are very different. Nothing alike other than being guitars.
2. Both are quality made instruments and available in different configurations and price ranges.
 
Because they are so different and both of time tested worth to players- are a couple of reasons that makes this thread so ridiculous.
 
Another reason that is important to some is American heritage.

As previously mentioned, Fender guitars can be found in the same price range as Gibson. Here's a strat selling for close to $9000.
 
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/fender-custom-shop-1957-stratocaster-relic-gold-hardware-electric-guitar-master-built-by-dale-wilson/h78394
 
Sweetwater had a Telecaster selling for $9600 earlier this week.
 
 
I think that the "overprice" stigmata comes from the fact that the basic "flagship" guitars tend to be less expensive on Fender's side. A Standard American start goes for what these days? $1000? Whereas a Les Paul Standard will probably cost you $2500.
 
Now, that's just my opinion, but, it isn't really fait to compare a standard Tele with a standard Les Paul, w/ its carved top, the binding, the set neck, etc... Comparing it to a SG would already be a bit more fair. And the price of a SG is already closer to that of a Tele. (you can grab a standard SG for a bit more than $1000 right now).
 
Nevertheless, I must have half a dozen friends who cut their teeth building Teles, and some of them got very very good and could build me one for a few hundred $. Only one of them builds SGs and he is an actual luthier. Les Pauls I haven't seen.

Premium solid body electrics are all overpriced. They are just hunks of wood with strings, knobs and switches attached. Unless they are hand built they are just widgets that can be replicated ad nauseum. And are.

I still love the derned ol things though.

I have to agree with Spacey that the...which is better...Fender or Gibson, question is a silly agruement.  They are both very fine instruments (tools) in the hands of any professional musician.  They are 2 flavors in which to choose from.  Up until a couple of years ago, I owned both and used both based on the needs.  I traded my American Deluxe Strat straight up for a Gibson LP Studio, so that tells you right there that they are equivilant instruments.  I miss the Strat often, but Gibson's 24-3/4 scale works better for me, my hands and my tone.  It's like asking which ice cream is better, vanilla or chocolate. 
 
I have been under the ussumption through out this thread that we are talking about electrics; because its no contest with acoustics.  I am not, by the way, a fan of Gibson acoustics.  I'm a Martin guy all the way there. 
 
What I don't agree with, is when people say Gibson's are over priced.  I think they can get what the market bears.  I have seen them lower their prices lately because of the poor economy.  They do have brand recognition, similar to PRS or even Rickenbacker for that matter.  I think it is humorous that Les Paul's (the man) first electric guitar that he produced was called "The Plank", or something like that. It was litterally a plank of wood with stings and a pick up.  I bet the materials in that guitar were not very expensive.  I do guess that a lot of time went into the R&D side of that "Plank", however.
 
Spacey may say that I am wrong, and I would stand corrected, but I would venture to guess that more expensive materials go into a Standard Les Paul as compared to a Standard Strat and that there is more labor required to build the Les Paul.  The LP has a mahagany body with a thick maple cap.  It has a carved face to the top of the body and has inlay and usually book matched maple.  The necks are more intricate with the trapezoid inlays, binding, and often inlayed Gibson logos.  The solid body, neck through construction has to be a little more time consuming than a bolt on neck.  I have worked around and managed Carpenters for over 30 years; I often have to estimate the projects that they work on.  I know that I would estimate a Gibson Les Paul to require more expensive woods, labor and CNC tooling than a typical Fender Strat.
 
If you were to look at it this way.  If the instrument sells for $2,500 and you want to make a 50% cost margin on the job.  Your total cost to produce the instrument would have to be $1,250.  If you say that $625 of that cost is for materials and $625 for labor, break that down.  If you as a Luthier were to make $20 and hour, you could put 31.25 hours into the build.  Painting the guitar alone has to take some time and that does n't even include dry time...what about sanding between multiple coats.  How many coats...5..6...8?  What about materials, 2 humbucker pickups would be a couple hundred dollars.  The reason that MIM Strats and Epiphones cost less is because they have gone to cheaper labor in other countries, along with cheaper materials.  The pickups that are in an Epiphone LP are not of the same sound quality that are in actual Gibson pick ups.  Same with Fender pick ups.  The pick ups that come in a MIM are not equvilant to Fender Noiseless pickups.  It comes down to cost of materials, cost of labor and profit margin.  Gibson, Fender, Taylor, Martin, Rickenbacker, etc... are all in business to stay in business and to make money.  All have longevity in a tough competative market.
 
And as I mentioned earlier, me personally, I buy instruments somewhat for the brand recognition because they are easier to sell or trade and get value back out of the instrument.  I have owned Carvin guitars and amps.  Great stuff, high quality...but they don't have the same type of resale value.  Unless you buy one that has been in the hands of some one famous...like our own Danny D. 

Why is bacon less popular than becan these days?

Why is bacon less popular than becan these days?

 
Turkey becan is definately less popular with me. 
 
Here is something related to musical instruments that I am struggling with myself right now.  My daughter plays violin and is pretty good at it.  She keeps making ALL City honors and other awards.  She starts highschool next year and she is already being tutored by the highschool music director.  He has said she had by far out grown the $500 violin she is currently playing.  We went to the "fiddle shop"...oh how my daughter hates it when I call it a fiddle...and they sent us home with 3 instruments to try out.  The low range is $2,200, the middle one $2,400 and the best sounding one on the wall, though not the most expensive, is $2,699.  Tell me you don't look at that tiny little violin and say...how can a fiddle cost $2,699. 
 
The highschool teacher happens to be a luthier and makes violins and cello's.  He has offered to build us one at cost, for $1,500 that he said would be every bit, worth the 1,500 cost and a better instrument.  He said that he does this sometimes for his students that are very promising talents and he doesn't really build violins to make money.  He is known for his cellos and sells them to some of the local music stores.  We borrowed one of his and had it looked at.  They said is was a very fine instrument.  I am leaning towards the custom build at cost, but here again the question has come up between myself and my wife....what about resale?

*Pfft...*  $2,700 is peanuts!
 
Sounds like you need to nurture that talent!  This guy made some OK fiddles:
 
Decent violins
 

 
10 million Pounds???  Yikes!

I don't know much about violins, but if they're anything like guitars, paying for brand name is not as pointless as people make it seem. And not just in terms of resale value.
 
When you buy an instrument from a well established brand like Gibson or Fender, not only can you count on resale value, but if the guy who put your Les Paul together is hit by a bus tomorrow, it won't make a difference for you. Operations will go on, you warranty will still be valid, replacement parts will probably still be available.
 
If you move to a different state or even to a different country, you're likely to be able to find an authorized reseller if you should need - unless you're moving to the little town where I grew up. ;)
 
This is in no way meant to put down custom instruments as there are also many reasons why one might want to go custom instead. But there's more to "paying for the name" than just throwing away your money.
 

Rain
 
This is in no way meant to put down custom instruments as there are also many reasons why one might want to go custom instead. But there's more to "paying for the name" than just throwing away your money.
 

LOL....then why did you compare a name brand to throwing money away?
I'm glad I'm not a friend of yours that builds guitars and finds out you've been buying Epiphones.
Of course the nice thing about building is one can not only build what they want but who they build for
as well....and doesn't need to be concerned about anything but the only thing that matters...playing a well made instrument that fits.
 
Now the thread is about the value of name brand/factory made guitars vs custom...
You guys....why don't you just answer the question? How many pages will there be before we get an answer for the OP?   that obviously doesn't care and as probably been laughing for 5 pages...like me.
 
 
 
 
Maybe if-  "why gibson is less popular then fender these days?" - had been; "Why I think Gibson guitars are less popular than Fender guitars." and then reasoning with the specific models being compared. At least there may be something to go on.
 
 
               

Well Spacey, that is exactly why I am leaning towards having the violin custom built for my daughter. It would be to her specs and a much higher quality. I plan on this being the last violin that I buy for her and want one that will last through high school and possibly college. My wife is actually the one second guessing about resale value.

Back to the OP, why is Fender more popular than Gibson. Are they? Does any one have any sales figures to back that up? I think we would need to combine Epiphone and Gibson sales to have a fair comparison with Fenders. I'm not exactly sure how one defines more popular. Just for grins I did a quick look at "Likes" on Facebook and Gibson had 6.2 million likes and Fender had only 1.6 million. Maybe people who play Fenders don't like Facebook.

I'm more of the original opinion that I had....in that it doesn't matter. Both excellent instruments, different tools for different sounds and I have owned and loved both. Play what you like best. Vanilla and chocolate ice cream.

Then why read the thread? (Spacey)
In the case of the violin, I would not get the best one, I would say well, I will buy a pretty good one, but we all will see if you really stick with it. Unless it has re-sale value in the future and will be worth more, then a pretty good one may do the trick. It is nice to be promising but until you actually get into the heat of the battle meaning symphonies instead of just local perhaps and orchestras and perhaps play that music for any number of years, being in an orchestra or a symphony even a great one is not the same as being the artist standing up front being the virtuoist playing. And only so much time can be spent on anything especially when college may be coming and well, will it all continue in that way. (I know somewhat since I played in both a junior symphony and a senior symphony orchestra during high school at the same time. Well, the boring afternoon Saturday rehearsal practices got to me as I looked a the sunshine out the window of the place because I was a percussionist and being outside instead of being bored inside while listening to rehearsal again and again and again while waiting to play one cymbal crash - Got To Me! I rather play football with friends and no padding and be tackled, anything except those boring tedious hours I still remember to this day. Fine if it fits someone else, but look man, I was in high-school, there are a million things to do other then make a small sum of money doing nothing most of one of the only days off from school. Get real!) I was a kid!
 
I would think the teacher has some personal feeling about creating a student who makes him/her famous as she took lessons from me. I would be careful about all of that, and the way the child may be used only later to find it all failed down. What is that line in Stargate? Still failing upwards?
 
Who took the poll about which company is more popular or not? I have not seen a link or anythings or anything except some perhaps personal feelings that Fender is more popular than Gibson? Perhaps it is Country Music! I turned on the radio today and took about 10 minutes of it - Drink your beer, chew tobacco, chew tobacco, chew tobacco, spit while praying to the man upstairs. The song before was about loving or liking Christmas Cookies or something, and to tell you the truth, I had to turn off the radio, period.
 
What exact music are you talking about? The fact that musicians are not making as much as they once did, the fact that they may play different instruments in this day and age of other guitar makers, the fact and possibility of the record companies only promoting single artists and certain female singers, or the whole probable ball of bull that inherits this Country lately. And perhaps it depends on what music you are listening too also.
 
The fact that if you read Sweetwater, 60% off on a PRS guitar there, while Gibsons where only 30% off, or the fact that they are just trying to sell the guitars or it's Black Friday week, weekday, weekend, whatever.
 
People buy what they think they can afford most of the time except maybe the ones that run the reality or show or lean towards incompetence like some of the high-ups wherever that is, the fact that some people complain about quality but again it is just another personal feeling, again and again and again.
 
Well, ya, I just bought a Gibson, and no I have not tried a Fender ever, I did once at the jam, just don't fit my clubby keyboard hands like the beef of the neck of my new Gibson does which I am still lowering the action on because it is pleked so I can plink and plunk and puck and tuck and plek, plank plonk, and whatever.

 
Can make up an entire song about any of it I suppose, so back to trying to play guitar. Just don't look for me to be famous.
 
 

And I would not knock the "fiddle" at least in my humble opinion!
 

spacealf
Then why read the thread? (Spacey)
 
 Who took the poll about which company is more popular or not? I have not seen a link or anythings or anything except some perhaps personal feelings that Fender is more popular than Gibson? Perhaps it is Country Music! I turned on the radio today and took about 10 minutes of it - Drink your beer, chew tobacco, chew tobacco, chew tobacco, spit while praying to the man upstairs.
 

That's easy...for classic tid-bits like that. Things I would never imagine.
 

spacey
 


LOL....then why did you compare a name brand to throwing money away?
I'm glad I'm not a friend of yours that builds guitars and finds out you've been buying Epiphones.
 

WTF?!!! Talk about completely misinterpreting what I wrote. I'm usually always the first to admit that maybe it's my relatively poor english that's to blame but in this case, I am sure it is not. 
 
Did you really read what I wrote? My whole message said the exact opposite and was an argument IN FAVOR of brand name (just not OVER custom). There wasn't even the slightest touch of irony to mislead someone in there. 
 
As for Epiphones and that low blow you felt necessary to give for whatever reason: I buy them because they're relatively decent instrument which I can afford. I also own a US Fender strat and, as you've read, recently acquired a little Gibson SGJ.
 
I don't consider myself the next Jimmy Page and my wife has had to cover all the expenses for the both of us for the last 2 years because I cannot legally work from outside our home country. My Epiphones sound okay, stay in tune and play just fine. That's as much as I need.
 
But more than anything, my head is not so far up my arse that I'd think I deserve or need a $2500 guitar. Which does not prevent me from seeing the arguments in favour of buying one. Because this isn't about ME.
 
As for my guitar building friends, one of them actually owns a few Epiphones amongst the PRS, Gibson, ESP and all the rest. And my own luthier did not frown when I asked him to adjust the Les Pauls.

We'll have to talk about the density also. The density of the wood, whatever, the air of density of this discussion.


http://www.differencebetw...-rosewood-and-mahogany

"However, due to the high demand for mahogany, has led to overlogging of the trees. This has in turn led to CITES listing Swietenia mahagoni on its endangered list, while S. macrophylla King, and S. humilis Zucc are listed as vulnerable."
 
 
The density of a Gibson vs. a Fender with the wood used to make the guitar.
Density!
It's that important.
 
Asian Mahogany vs. Central America or even South American Mahogany.
The Rosewood used in the guitars and last but not least, the maple used in a guitar.
 
Oh, wait, I think Fender uses different wood in their guitars, something like Adler or Basswood or Maple or something like that.
 
Density, as long as the head perhaps is not Dense!
 

Rain

spacey
 


LOL....then why did you compare a name brand to throwing money away?
I'm glad I'm not a friend of yours that builds guitars and finds out you've been buying Epiphones.
 

WTF?!!! Talk about completely misinterpreting what I wrote. I'm usually always the first to admit that maybe it's my relatively poor english that's to blame but in this case, I am sure it is not. 
 
Did you really read what I wrote? My whole message said the exact opposite and was an argument IN FAVOR of brand name (just not OVER custom). There wasn't even the slightest touch of irony to mislead someone in there. 
 

 
Yes I read it. Maybe you had another reason for stating "throwing money away"...the way I understood it was funny. Sorry. Ok it's not funny any more so I don't know what "throwing money away" means.
 

Rain
 
As for Epiphones and that low blow you felt necessary to give for whatever reason: I buy them because they're relatively decent instrument which I can afford. I also own a US Fender strat and, as you've read, recently acquired a little Gibson SGJ.
 

 

I didn't low blow Epiphones.
You stated that you had a half dozen friends that could build guitars for a few hundred dollars...
I thought if you were my friend and you choose to buy Epiphones rather than have me build you one I'd  not be feeling good about the whole thing.
Neither here or there though because I'm not one of them and maybe they don't care for all I know. But I stand by what I said; I'm glad I'm not a friend of yours that builds guitars for a few hundred dollars and finds out you've been buying Epiphones.
If you don't like what I think...nothing I can do about that.
 
 

spacey
 
 Yes I read it. Maybe you had another reason for stating "throwing money away"...the way I understood it was funny. Sorry. Ok it's not funny any more so I don't know what "throwing money away" means.
 
 

 
So I'll quote myself - "paying for brand name is not as pointless as people make it seem" and "But there's more to "paying for the name" than just throwing away your money".
 
I don't know how else I could word it otherwise.
I did not say paying for brand name IS throwing money away.
I don't know how it could be interpreted as the opposite.
 

spacey
 

I didn't low blow Epiphones.
You stated that you had a half dozen friends that could build guitars for a few hundred dollars...
I thought if you were my friend and you choose to buy Epiphones rather than have me build you one I'd  not be feeling good about the whole thing.
Neither here or there though because I'm not one of them and maybe they don't care for all I know. But I stand by what I said; I'm glad I'm not a friend of yours that builds guitars for a few hundred dollars and finds out you've been buying Epiphones.
If you don't like what I think...nothing I can do about that.
 

Understood that this wasn't low blowing Epiphone. In fact I didn't take it as such - I haven't reached the point of fanboydom where I actually identify with manufacturers.
 
I took it as a personal critic, questioning my decision to buy an Epiphone instead of buying a custom made instrument made by a friend (the critic of Epiphone was implicit I guess, but it didn't bother me). None of that is all that important, but I felt if a statement was to be made, I could at least counter it. 
 
If I pick an Epiphone Les Paul over a custom made Telecaster, it's most likely because I want a Les Paul, not a Tele. At this point I am not really interested in a Telecaster. Neither was I interested in a more custom design.
 
If I bought a cheap tele copy, or if I was to buy a Squier or something, it's very likely that at least one of them would call me on it and suggest building one for me instead. In fact, I know for certain that if I wanted a Tele, I'd ring my old pal James and custom order one because he makes the coolest of all teles I've seen.
 
Plus, as I said, those guys are friends - not salesmen trying to earn a living at my expense. By that logic, they should be at each other's throat over who's going to build me a guitar...

Rain...it's real simple to me...
If I had a choice between a custom made guitar that a friend of mine could build or an Epiphone
and the money for either is but a few hundred dollars then I would choose the custom made.
You were the one that mentioned you had those options.
Now I'm sorry I pointed out my choice.

spacey
Rain...it's real simple to me...
If I had a choice between a custom made guitar that a friend of mine could build or an Epiphone
and the money for either is but a few hundred dollars then I would choose the custom made.
You were the one that mentioned you had those options.
Now I'm sorry I did.

You don't have to be sorry, man. Seriously. 
 
Let me phrase it another way - and let that not offend anyone who like them or build them as this is only my opinion: I don't like Telecasters.
 
Most of them I really don't like.
 
A custom tele to me is a potentially high quality version of a bad guitar design.
 
I hate that bridge.
I don't like that metal plate underneath the knobs.
I don't like that thin headstock which looks crippled - aesthetically it's totally unbalanced.
That body shape... To me, it's a clumsy caricature of a Les Paul and/or other classic hollow body designs. 
I don't like "twang".
 
I've come to dislike big pickguards. I just want to see the wood, not hide it under a chunk of plastic. That's valid for Stratocasters, SGs and Teles or any other.
 
I don't like how trendy they've become when every one got tired of strats. When rock musicians became boring and depressed, cut their hair and started dressing like the guy working the pomp at the gas station, the market for Telecaster seemed to sky rocket. 
 
Telecaster and Orange amps...
 
Once in a while I see one that's almost it, but, nah...  
 
That being said, I can also tell that a telecaster is nice - AS a telecaster. 
 
These are a few of the reasons why I'll pick a Epiphone Les Paul ANYTIME before a Telecaster - admitting that I can test it before.
 
As for the rest, you're as free as anyone to express your thoughts here. And you know a lot more about building guitars than I ever will. But I believe I am also able to pick the right guitar for me.
 
And it's all become a moot point since I got the SGJ, anyway. ;)

Well I guess I misunderstood you about the style choices. I took it that your friends built
SG's too but you hadn't seen them build a LP.
Naturally, since your last purchase was an SG and thinking your luthier friends build them...I was comparing apples to custom grown apples lol.
 
Like I stated much earlier in this thread; people buy for many different reasons.
When I talk with folks about a build I try to mention all the different aspects of guitars I can when planning out the build...if I think
they may not know but I've never thought that the things they prefer are not good just because I prefer
something else. It has also been an opportunity for them to learn about some aspects of a guitar that they didn't realize.
 
I know I played them for many years and didn't know anything much more than what I liked...didn't know or care why.
Scale length didn't matter to me then...I knew that all the strings I bought were long enough. Now it still doesn't matter
unless I'm going to build one. :) and lucky enough...the strings still fit.
 
 

Here's a case in point...

Here is my Guitar



This is my Tradition MTP-375.  Here is a better picture with more detail...



It is a solid Mahogany Set Neck and Body, in Transparent Black, with a 5/8" Curly Maple Top.
24 Frets, Abalone around Headstock, Neck, and Body.  Abalone and Mother of Pearl
Fret Inlays, Wilkenson Tremelo, I have an EMG 81 in the Bridge Position and stock pickup
in at the Neck.

If I were to go and trade this guitar or sell it, I'd be lucky to get $100, even thought this guitar,
10 years ago sold for $1,300.00.  Why?  Because no one is really familiar with this brand.  It
plays every bit as well, if not better, then a Les Paul or PRS, and sounds every bit equally as 
good, if not better.  But it has no value (perceived) because the BRAND is not popular or known.

Stamp PRS or Gibson on the Headstock.....$5,000.00....

This is the TESTAMENT to the IGNORANCE of Americans and their PERCEPTION of what is "Valuable"...

I'm just saying..

spacey
Well I guess I misunderstood you about the style choices. I took it that your friends built
SG's too but you hadn't seen them build a LP.
Naturally, since your last purchase was an SG and thinking your luthier friends build them...I was comparing apples to custom grown apples lol.
 
Like I stated much earlier in this thread; people buy for many different reasons.
When I talk with folks about a build I try to mention all the different aspects of guitars I can when planning out the build...if I think
they may not know but I've never thought that the things they prefer are not good just because I prefer
something else. It has also been an opportunity for them to learn about some aspects of a guitar that they didn't realize.
 
I know I played them for many years and didn't know anything much more than what I liked...didn't know or care why.
Scale length didn't matter to me then...I knew that all the strings I bought were long enough. Now it still doesn't matter
unless I'm going to build one. :) and lucky enough...the strings still fit.
 
 

One of them does build SGs, indeed, though I was introduced to him very recently, and didn't find out he had build a few of them (including a really beautiful one w/ the cross inlays, similar to Tony Iommi's) until after I'd ordered mine. 
 
As you said, there are many reasons why people chose a guitar and that Gibson was some kind of a promise I'd made to myself (actually, the cheapest way to hold that promise).
 
For the price I've paid because of the year-end price drop ($499), I actually don't know whether I could have had much of a custom SG.
 
I don't know how much I'd have to pay to have an instrument that, to me, feels or sounds remarkably better. I'm not the kind of guy who will agonize over the choice of wood and woodgrain - as much as I enjoy learning about it.
 
If EVH could revolutionize rock guitar with those 2 pieces of woods he bolted together and his rudimentary soldering skills, and if Hendrix made history playing off the shelf CBS Stratocasters, to me, though the difference may be discernable, it isn't something that matters all that much.
 
I pick guitars I think play well and will work for me. I can change the pick ups if needed, and that part makes more of a difference to me than wood and and that fine stuff.
 
You know, for a while I've considered having my strat upgraded. Or then having a totally custom Tele built for me. But then I started going through the list of custom options I wanted and realized that the result would pretty much be a caricature of a Les Paul. 
 
Still, wanting something a bit more streamlined than the LP, with bevelled edges, and to have that switch out of the way, the SG seemed like a good option. It has the tune-o-matic bridge which is ergonomically right for me.
 
It was a matter of finding one which wouldn't feel so frail and thing - hence the 50's rounded neck. 
 
The satin finish for the neck was also a preference of mine. The black pick up covers, a great solution to my ruining of chrome hardware. And the minimalist finish is definitely a big plus for me.
 
Funnily enough, these are features that I couldn't find rolled into one more expensive Gibson. So this one is almost like having a custom SG.
 

Whelp...I guess I'm a tangent to the above sentiments. Because I PREFER Epiphone to many Gibson products. If we are differentiating between the two. My Epi Nighthawk custom reissue...made in Indonesia...is exemplary. Put together every bit as good as my former PRS Custom 24. Just my opinion. It is also better built than my former Gibson ES339...which I had high hopes would be the end to my search for THE guitar. Ha! The current candidate is a MIJ 58 Strat reissue which I will take delivery on Monday. Fingers crossed. Again.

yorolpal
Whelp...I guess I'm a tangent to the above sentiments. Because I PREFER Epiphone to many Gibson products. If we are differentiating between the two. My Epi Nighthawk custom reissue...made in Indonesia...is exemplary. Put together every bit as good as my former PRS Custom 24. Just my opinion. It is also better built than my former Gibson ES339...which I had high hopes would be the end to my search for THE guitar. Ha! The current candidate is a MIJ 58 Strat reissue which I will take delivery on Monday. Fingers crossed. Again.

My black Les Paul is like that - the binding, the finish and all are all exceptional. It is totally playable - more so than many more expensive Les Paul's or others I've played. The pick ups are okay - pretty hot, not muddy but not very good either. Overall, I love that guitar. And it's gorgeous.
 
My cherry sunburst plays like a dream. The satin finish is a bit rough, especially the back of the body - play it without a shirt and if you have the tiniest bit of hair where the guitar rests, you'll understand.
 
The binding isn't as flawless as on the black one, far from it. The part which rests on my lap looks stained. The switch sucks. Some edges look a bit rough. But pick ups are surprisingly good - they're Epiphone's own version of a Gibson's Burstbucker and a '57. Sweet sounding.
 
Did I mention it was eminently playable?
 
The rough finish and the imperfections are things I'm well willing to put up with if that gets me a guitar which sounds and plays like I want for a reasonable price.
 
 

And speaking of strats...
 
I was quite disappointed the first time I removed the pick guard on my 1994 MIA Fender strat and saw the large chunk of wood they'd taken out - the swimming pool routing they call it, is that it? Doesn't look like particularly fine piece of work. The pick ups were nothing to write home about - quite mediocre in fact.
 
Other than that, it was quite indestructible, played better than any other strat I've played and never gave me any issue - except with the knobs which quickly started falling off. Only recently did it the volume and switch become noisy. 
 
I would NEVER put a Les Paul or a SG throughout a hundredth of what that strat has been through. They're not the fanciest but they're incredibly solid.
 
But with the exception of the electronics and maybe the tuners, I could probably tell you the same of just any old strat, be it made in Japan or in India or in Canada. 
 

2 years ago I sold a black Epiphone LP, I used the money to buy a Epi 335. The LP had a Gibson Classic 57+ pickup in the bridge that I bought new for $135 and installed myself. It was really a sweet player with that Gibson pickup and rivaled my real Gibson. When I advertised the LP for sale with the upgraded pickup, at a higher price, no one wanted to pay any more for it than the other Epi LP's that were being offered. I had dozens of guys trying to low ball me and were offering $200. When I would tell hem that the Gibson pick up alone was worth $135, they just didn't care. So.....I took the pick up out and sold it as a standard Epi. Got $300 for it with case.

When I bought the Epi Dot 335, I installed it into the new guitar. Now it is a sweet player as well. I haven't changed out the neck pick up yet, but will one of these days. The Epi neck pickup isn't too bad, but it is not as nice as the Gibson 490R pickup that is in my Gibson LP. I can hear the difference. The point was, that no matter what I did in upgrades to the Epi LP, it wasn't gaining me anything in resale value. It was a very well made LP and sounded pretty darn good with the upgrades. I think there are a lot of kids out there these days that just play on solid state amps, Line 6 Spiders and simulators that can't really hear the difference anyway. I know every time I go into GC some one tries to sell me on the latest POD or modeling amp. I always apologize and say, sorry...I am one of those geezers that love our tubes. I also don't play with a lot of heavy distortion, so dynamics is probably more noticeable to me as well.

Well, I stayed out of this topic (except when I pop in to make an expected stupid, hopefully comedic, comment of course! ), however...  "MY" answer to the OP is this:
 
Before I got my first wonderful chance to get a custom built the way I want, I camped in Guitar Center for hours trying out LOTS of guitars.  I tried out 31 Gibson LP's (Standards and Classics) and MOST of them had some issue (sometimes serious) with them.  The most common was sharp fret edges.  But, the thing that stood out above all else was how each one felt completely different from other, supposedly, equal guitars.  Unfortunately, only TWO really felt like you wanted to take them home, but at $2,350 I had a lot of misgivings and didn't pull the trigger.
 
Remember that I used to have a '76 LP Standard as well as my favorite Studio Double Cut so I was already familiar with how they were supposed to play and feel.  I also had a nice Lonestar Fender Strat (with a full replacement pickguard preloaded with alternative pickups so it was easy to switch from three singles to a fat-strat) so I knew what that was like as well.
 
I ended up buying a sweet LP Classic from a friend in financial trouble instead but, the next time I went into GC, I played a bunch of Strats and was very impressed with how consistently well set up they were and pretty much any of them would have made a nice purchase (for far less than an LP).  My conclusion?  Gibson had a complete let-down in quality control, yet their prices weren't competitive to others that were offering quality for a lot less (Yamaha, Music Man, Ibanez and Schecter all come to mind - and I've had all of these except Yamaha's).
 
So my answer to the OP is "Higher price for lower quality."  Of course, that's all based on the fact that there's really any statistics behind the original assertion to begin with!  LOL.
 
Here were my Gibson LP and Fender Strat:
 
 
 
BTW - The reason I'm not as much of a fan of Epiphones (I've only had one) is that every one I tried would have needed post-sale work to get it to the level I wanted.  Usually this meant upgrading the electronics and replacing the nut at the least.

Yup..that used to be my take on Epis as well. But in the last few years I think they've actually gotten WAY better. Especially the Indonesian builds. Agree totally regarding Gibbies. Quality control sketchy at best. My gripe with fender is that now they put out so many models at so many price points made in so many different locales that it's hard to know exactly what you're getting.

I'll keep ya posted on my MIJ 58 Strat and how it does...or doesn't measure up.

Finally took the bait Craig? :-)


I believe the Lone Star Strat comes with upgraded Fender pickups. Am I remembering correctly? I know that I hear the difference in pickups and electronics between a MIM Strat, an American and a Am. Deluxe. My last American Deluxe was a real player, it was really hard for me to let than one go. I will own another some day.

I have the same issues with Epi's Craig. By the time I have gutted all of the electronics and pickups, I am back into a lower end LP.

Nice LP Classic by the way. Classic is probably the model I would pick up if I get another LP. You can find some real bargains used right now. I see them at $1,400- $1,600 all day long here, in good shape.

You guys tried the non-standard Epiphone Les Paul? As I said, the pick ups on my standard are not very good (though they can actually be useful for high gain stuff), but the ones on my Traditional are already way better. Those ProBuckers really aren't bad.
 
The weird thing for me is that I've always considered that it had to be a Strat or a Les Paul. The Tele and the SG were like the ugly cousins (though the SG not half as bad as the Tele).
 
I still think the Les Paul is the most gorgeous electric guitar ever created, I love how balanced it feels, and that sound is to die for.
 
The strat I have developed mixed feelings about. I've come to see it as a plank w/ lots of plastic on it. My American strat looks like a cheaper instrument than my black Epiphone. I hate where Fender put the knobs. I'm not all that comfortable with the bridge. But it's an amazing instrument if it works for you, ergonomically.
 
And I end up playing that SG - in which I'm starting to see a different kind of beauty. Its tone has a lot of what I like about the Les Paul, but there's also something a bit nastier about it - not unpleasant at all. In terms of playability it gives me the best of both worlds and then some.
 
In regards to strats again, what puzzles me  is where the difference lies between a $400 made in Mexico instrument and a $1000 US one and a $4000 custom. I just don't see how such a simple design can be made all that different. 
 
I can see the rough edges on my Epiphone, I can see the difference in the binding, the inlays, I've seen Epiphones that had tuners questionably aligned, rough joints. These are visual cues that can help you differentiate an Epiphone from a Gibson pretty much on the spot. Then there's wood quality, there's electronics, etc...
 
Similarly, the Les Paul Junior and the Les Paul Studio both offer stripped down versions of the Les Paul. No binding, simpler design...
 
By design, the Les Paul has LOTS of little things which can give it away and it's relatively easy to spot the difference between a $400 instrument, a $900 one and a $2000 (whether those price are justified isn't part of the question right now).
 
For strats, as long as you get one with the standard thickness, your only visual cues often are the number of screws that hold the pickguard and the type of bridge. I could take the guts of my MIA strat, put them in a MIM instrument and I doubt there's be much difference. Maybe the tuners. But a Strat is a Strat. You can mix and match them - some of the most iconic strats like Clapton's Blackie were exemples of such "monsters".
 
That's one part someone like Spacey could enlighten me about quite a bit. How can a practically ready-made guitar like strat or a tele be made into such a "Deluxe" instrument, beside the electronics... Furthermore, considering how simple it seems to put one together yourself* (unlike a Les Paul), there really isn't much to a MIA strat or Tele beside the brand name, or is there?
 
 
* Simple for anyone but yours truly. I wouldn't even dream of trying - I'm sure power tools and soldering irons would be made illegal in Nevada as a result if I even tried...

I'm guessing the MIM is cheaper 'cause it's made in Mexico and that's about it.
 
And, I must admit:  I've never had a Tele because...  I've always thought it was butt fugly!   Sorry, but that's my opinion of it.  What ya gonna do? 
 
Now if you really want a quality LP-like instrument for a very attractive price you should check out the Agile and Tokai guitar lines!  (Really.)

When I think of Gibson and Fender I don't think of popularity I think of two innovating guitar manufacturers that have
secured their place in history by making excellent guitars.
 
I know that both companies will build whatever the player wants or offer a model for whatever the player can afford or want to spend.
I know that both can build guitars better today than they ever could and both have made it very easy for a player to have them custom
build a guitar. It's a marketplace...money talks and BS walks. Simple.
 
I also know that times have changed for them in the marketplace as there are many quality guitar manufacturers and many luthiers. Even so, nobody can
erase their heritage or replace it. I can't imagine how bad they would have to start building guitars to kill their popularity...and for one to even think and believe that
one is more popular than the other or to think that a specific model is for a specific genre of music is just to far out for me to take serious and makes me wonder if there are
really people that believe that. (unfortunately I believe there is)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

craigb
I'm guessing the MIM is cheaper 'cause it's made in Mexico and that's about it.
 
And, I must admit:  I've never had a Tele because...  I've always thought it was butt fugly!   Sorry, but that's my opinion of it.  What ya gonna do? 

Agree with you? :P
 
Ol Pal pointed me to those recently, which I think are some of the better looking tele models:

I still don't like the bridge, I still don't like that plate under the knobs. I am not a fan of strings through... The headstock is the best take on an alternative Tele headstock I have seen. As good as it gets, short of a totally custom.
 
 
That being said, the more I play the SG, the more I get the impression that that's the model I should have been playing all along.
 
If I were to buy a different model or maybe to have one built, these days, I find there's something interesting about this one:

 
Though I can't understand why Fender insist on placing volume control in the way. And that switch could be located elsewhere.
 
And I'm sure if I start messing around with ideas for modes, I'll end up with another Les Paul or a SG.
 
And the MusicMan Armada is one which really caught my eye (though I don't like the inlays):

 

I'm with you guys on Tele's, they just visually don't do a lot for me.

The main difference in a non American made Fender is the cost of labor. American made Fenders have Fenders high end pickups and electronics. They also have a much better bridge in them, one that gets better resonance. Craig, the picture of your Strat has the upgraded bridge and Fender Noisless pickups. The Noiseless are my favorite Fender single coils and I had them on my American Deluxe along with the heavier upgraded bridge. Smaller differences seem to be in the way they paint them. At least in the specs sheets they mention a different process that improves body resonance.

And I agree with you Rain, for me the LP shape has always been the most appealing to me. It instantly caught my eye. As a young guy, I had to have one. Bought my first Standard LP in 1982. I do think it is silly to associate different guitars with different genre's of music. However, a LP and a Marshall, the tone to me has always been the classic sound of rock. The LP has just a little more bite and a little more sustain that just does it for me.

MakeShift
I'm with you guys on Tele's, they just visually don't do a lot for me. 

I do think it is silly to associate different guitars with different genre's of music. However, a LP and a Marshall, the tone to me has always been the classic sound of rock. The LP has just a little more bite and a little more sustain that just does it for me.

Now I know what you guys really thought when I posted my Tele builds....
 
(bold) That says it all. A lot of people relate tones to what was used in the past. A lot aren't and any tones that a guitarist are after can be achieved on many, many different guitars.
 
Times have changed. Choices have grown big time and has opened the door for a player to get whatever it is...based on his abilities and knowledge of creating/hearing tones. Hell it can be done now in the box with a Kay guitar. I know...the tone kings will not agree but I still haven't met one that can tell you what they're hearing unless they've been told.
 
If the only way to get the sound of a Strat or LP was by using either one.........think about that. Where would PRS, Ibanez etc...be? Not to mention custom made guitars.....man what a list this would be if I continued.
There is much more to it than just tone. Much more. If one wants to know what it's like to play a Strat and what they will sound like playing one there is only one way. If one wants the sound of a Strat there are almost endless ways. Now all the players that have stated that pickups and players are the main factors of tones better be careful if they don't agree.
 
 
 
 
 
 
And talk about ugly guitars....that Music Man looks like that fast food Sonic burger sign.

spacey
Now I know what you guys really thought when I posted my Tele builds....

Yeah, we're busted.  But with all the work you put into your guitars Michael, we just wanted to be nice.
(And, yes, I'm kidding of course!  )
 
Actually, I just love to drool over look at the fine wood on your projects.

craigb
 
Actually, I just love to drool over look at the fine wood on your projects.

Ditto.
 
And one certainly doesn't need to love something to appreciate. I can appreciate Michelangelo's David even though I am no big fan of male nudity.

spacey
 
(bold) That says it all. A lot of people relate tones to what was used in the past. A lot aren't and any tones that a guitarist are after can be achieved on many, many different guitars.
 
Times have changed. Choices have grown big time and has opened the door for a player to get whatever it is...based on his abilities and knowledge of creating/hearing tones. Hell it can be done now in the box with a Kay guitar. I know...the tone kings will not agree but I still haven't met one that can tell you what they're hearing unless they've been told.
 
If the only way to get the sound of a Strat or LP was by using either one.........think about that. Where would PRS, Ibanez etc...be? Not to mention custom made guitars.....man what a list this would be if I continued.
 
There is much more to it than just tone. Much more. If one wants to know what it's like to play a Strat and what they will sound like playing one there is only one way. If one wants the sound of a Strat there are almost endless ways. Now all the players that have stated that pickups and players are the main factors of tones better be careful if they don't agree.
 

For whatever reason, I love traditional guitars. I don't think it has to be justified so long as one is not putting down the alternatives. I never liked PRS, Ibanez and most of the others all that much. But I can't say they aren't valid.
 
You could give me a PRS which sounds EXACTLY as a Les Paul, it wouldn't change a thing. I'm not inspired by that instrument. It's highly subjective obviously, but I'm making music, not trying to arrive to a mathematical understanding of guitar sound. 
 
As for sound... Right off the bat, a classic Les Paul in a Marshall will provide you with a much different starting point then a Telecaster in a Twin Reverb. 
 
Obviously, you can take that Telecaster and work your way towards a Les Paul type of sound I guess. Or you can take a Les Paul and make it sound quite like a strat. 
 
I guess it's a matter of where you want to start. For me, if you like that classic Les Paul type of sound for starters, it simply makes more sense to pick a Les Paul. If you want to play Brian Setzer and sound similar to him, a hollow body is a good place to start. Then work it to get those other sounds you may want.
 
And then obviously, there are all the alternatives, which are all as equally valid, depending on your priorities.
 
 
 

Michael,

I am saddened that you think I would feel that way. I have been fascinated by all guitars and anything guitar related since I was 10 years old. Why would I not be genuinely fascinated with the guitars that you are building. Building my own guitar is something that I would like to do myself before I leave this world.

Your craftsmanship is superb. Your threads on building are some of the ones I look forward too. I like McQue's threads on amp building as well. Why would I say something that isn't true or that I don't actually mean or feel?
I actually was going to ask in the other thread, how you route that slot for the truss rod?

I know craftsmanship when I see it. My company employes between 80 - 130 master level carpenters at a given day. We have 2 state of the art Komo CNC mills to route out the parts the carpenters assemble. The projects that we do, most people would probably recognize if I were to mention a few. Everything is high tech these days. So when a guy like yourself comes along and produces everything with his hands, I can find it fascinating on many levels. I have done quite a bit of work with wood myself and I hope to do more of it again as the kids get older and leave the nest.