Helpful Replyzplane élastique - why?

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CadErik
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2018/10/09 03:25:23 (permalink)

zplane élastique - why?

Out of curiosity here, any particular reason why so much focus on the timestreching algorithm on this new release (I assume this was the big feature that Noel mentioned)?
I actually thought that the radius ones built-in where quite excellent, I did some amazing time stretching with vocals on previous Sonar versions...
Or were the reasons around somekind of licensing+cost issue with the previous technology?
 
Erik.
 
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mikannohako
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Re: zplane élastique - why? 2018/10/09 07:09:19 (permalink)
Several months ago, Bitwig studio also had an update with elastic audio time stretching algorithm.

So I'm simply guessing, CbB also followed the trend , like other daw has the algorithm and why not for CbB?
And I agree that radius one is not bad at all.
I haven't compared the quality so IDK but the algorithm is kinda becoming standards...
#2
miracledee
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Re: zplane élastique - why? 2018/10/09 10:31:13 (permalink)
Izotope radius gives better results @ pitch shifting and timestretching, but is a bit slower than elastique.
So this alternate I guess.
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scook
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Re: zplane élastique - why? 2018/10/09 11:12:20 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby fwrend 2018/10/09 11:54:30
The benefits are detailed here
The source material makes a difference in which algorithm to choose. Here is a recent thread.
Can't be a licensing/cost issue because Elastique was ADDED to the existing choices. Nothing was removed.



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Jon Sasor [Cakewalk]
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Re: zplane élastique - why? 2018/10/09 11:45:59 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby fwrend 2018/10/09 11:54:36
The short answer is Elastique works in real time, Radius does not. You can set Elastique as the online algorithm and keep Radius for the render one and the preview of your edits during playback will be significantly better than it was before. More details found at the link scook mentioned.

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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: zplane élastique - why? 2018/10/09 12:50:22 (permalink)
The 99% reason for elastique integration is for high quality real-time time stretching used for slip stretched audio and for audiosnap. Prior to this the only realtime stretching was the Groove stretching technology (our own) which is also used under the hood for playing groove clips. While that is efficient and good enough for basic preview it produces audible artifacts when used with higher stretches.
Elastique also opens up the possibility of other real time options that we may pursue in the future.

Noel Borthwick
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#6
scook
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Re: zplane élastique - why? 2018/10/09 12:57:05 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Elastique also opens up the possibility of other real time options that we may pursue in the future.

Yet another tease?
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bitman
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Re: zplane élastique - why? 2018/10/09 13:28:57 (permalink)
Like Vari-Speed I'll bet.
 
 
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eve_ripper
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Re: zplane élastique - why? 2018/10/09 16:45:54 (permalink)
I really like last update. Now I can stretch in real-time more carefully and faster than it was earlier.
I write mix of electronic and live music, so quantizing bass guitar to drum machine hits is getting better with this update.
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Anderton
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Re: zplane élastique - why? 2018/10/09 23:27:50 (permalink)
bitman
Like Vari-Speed I'll bet.



Actually, the latest update does allow for this. You just have to tell a clip to follow the project tempo. It's not as seamless as programs where you specify in advance of loading a clip, but the results are the same. I just wrote a column for Sound on Sound on how to elastique to change from one static tempo to another, and how to prep a file to follow tempo changes.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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BenMMusTech
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Re: zplane élastique - why? 2018/10/09 23:41:26 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby marled 2018/10/10 08:59:02
bitman
Like Vari-Speed I'll bet.
 
 


Yes, Elastique is what Reaper uses to implement their digital varispeed paradigm. I'm not sure how Cake have implemented theirs, I won't update at this stage because making music is my thing...not hanging on for endless updates that may make music making impossible from what I'm reading...and the silly connectivity options that I don't need...I'm Beethoven, Abbey Road and Hollywood these days or the last of the romantics ;). From what I'm reading it doesn't sound like they've implemented it in a very 'musical' fashion. This is a button that acts a bit like a tape speed knob. If they do that, get rid of the connectivity stuff or at least allow us to turn it off and they get rid of the need to install with their bandlab assistant...then I might have a look at the new Sonar.

Benjamin Phillips-Bachelor of Creative Technology (Sound and Audio Production), (Hons) Sonic Arts, MMusTech (Master of Music Technology), M.Phil (Fine Art)
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#11
listen
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Re: zplane élastique - why? 2018/10/10 01:36:06 (permalink)
I'm hoping someone will make a video or direct me to a video of how to use it - just saying!!!
 

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bitman
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Re: zplane élastique - why? 2018/10/10 02:07:09 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby RSMCGUITAR 2018/10/12 05:04:05
Anderton
 
Actually, the latest update does allow for this. You just have to tell a clip to follow the project tempo. It's not as seamless as programs where you specify in advance of loading a clip, but the results are the same. I just wrote a column for Sound on Sound on how to elastique to change from one static tempo to another, and how to prep a file to follow tempo changes.


We just want a slider.
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rebel007
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Re: zplane élastique - why? 2018/10/10 04:17:00 (permalink)
Nice work Cakewalk folks!

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soens
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Re: zplane élastique - why? 2018/10/10 08:07:49 (permalink)
Is elasitque bound by the same length limits Radius is? Approach 200% is nearly, if not totally, unuseable in most cases.

I think of audio clips like rubber bands: they only stretch so far then break.
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soens
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Re: zplane élastique - why? 2018/10/10 08:09:50 (permalink)
bitman
We just want a slider.


New Control Bar Module?
 
What would really be cool is to make it controllable with automation.
post edited by soens - 2018/10/10 11:34:01
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bitman
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Re: zplane élastique - why? 2018/10/10 13:11:23 (permalink)
My RME 2496 had a speed control slider. It's post Sonar so it won't print unless you go the the bother of recording the output. Doesn't preserve pitch, but can give you some idea if your song is too slow or fast. And it's fun to play with. +/- 5% if I recall correctly. There has got to be a place to wedge a hairline slider. There is a NOW position slider under the transport. Does anybody ever use that?
#17
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: zplane élastique - why? 2018/10/10 17:10:00 (permalink)
Just for clarity and fact checking. You can't slow down a project in general without potentially bouncing elements. 
Elastique operates at the clip level and cannot work with certain types of clips without pre-bouncing them. eg groove clips, region effects, vocalsync clips etc. So even if there were a slider of some sort it wouldn't necessarily apply to all elements in the project without some user action.

Noel Borthwick
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Blogospherianman
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Re: zplane élastique - why? 2018/10/10 17:29:42 (permalink)
soens
Is elasitque bound by the same length limits Radius is? Approach 200% is nearly, if not totally, unuseable in most cases.

I think of audio clips like rubber bands: they only stretch so far then break.


That's only if you're using control shift to stretch the clip. You can go way beyond 200% in either direction if you use Clip follows project and then just change the tempo to what you need. I'm happy to use Elastique for the Realtime preview and Radius for the very high quality stretching offline.
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BenMMusTech
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Re: zplane élastique - why? 2018/10/11 07:04:57 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Just for clarity and fact checking. You can't slow down a project in general without potentially bouncing elements. 
Elastique operates at the clip level and cannot work with certain types of clips without pre-bouncing them. eg groove clips, region effects, vocalsync clips etc. So even if there were a slider of some sort it wouldn't necessarily apply to all elements in the project without some user action.


Well, and please forgive Noel if I've got some of the ideas wrong...but this is exactly how it's done in Reaper, and I believe most other DAWs that have implemented digital varispeed. Perhaps each track is handled individually, but a slider controls the speed of the overall track, and each track is affected accordingly. What makes this handy is the ability to change the timbre of say a vox ala Rain by The Beatles. They slow the track down when it comes to recording the vocals and then play the track at full speed when it comes to mixing. I suspect that's how McCartney hides some of the age in his voice to this day. Digital varispeed is also handy when you can't play something at a particular pace and you can slow it down so you can play what's needed. Again The Beatles and the 'harpsichord' solo which actually a piano sped up. What's even better though is digital varispeed - at least in Reaper you can keep the original pitch of track. Very cool. Again I might be wrong, and please correct me if I am you know...but this is all handed by the elastique algorithm.

Sorry Noel. I'm not trying to be difficult, I understand you're a great advocate for Sonar.

Ben

Benjamin Phillips-Bachelor of Creative Technology (Sound and Audio Production), (Hons) Sonic Arts, MMusTech (Master of Music Technology), M.Phil (Fine Art)
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Anderton
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Re: zplane élastique - why? 2018/10/11 17:21:45 (permalink)
For recording at slower or faster tempos while preserving pitch and then returning to the original tempo, I find it easiest to create a scratch premix, change tempo, and slip-stretch premix to the new tempo...record the overdub, reset the tempo, and then slip-stretch the overdub to the new tempo. I know that's not what people are asking for, but it works and gets the job done.
 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: zplane élastique - why? 2018/10/12 04:47:28 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] 2018/10/12 15:57:28
As much as I would love to have a slider as per Reaper .
 
I understand how useful this update and functionality is for Cakewalk  from a  CREATOR of content point of view 
 
 
For grins and giggles I took Pat Martino's recording of Impressions and loaded it into to Cakewalk .
I chose this song over my own music so I can maintain an emotional distance +I wanted to hear what I could come up with.
After slicing up a few song segments I decided to take a few sections (one at a time 4 bars each ) and do the ctrl shift left mouse drag ...
My goal was to treat the clips as content for a future guitar lesson / transcription ...
The slower side = lengthening the clip  in the time line ...1 st clip normal speed , 2nd clip 114% , 3rd clip 131%
Faster side = meaning shorting the clip in the timeline , 1 st clip unaffected , 2nd clip  90 % , 3rd clip 75 %
Various Band Hits where the band hit a chord together I slowed to 200 % and 300% respectively ...
I did it this way using Cakewalk because I wanted to be able to hear the clips in real time sequentially so I could compare the results back to back .
I'm still setting up a timeline w different song sections so for now I did this W out bouncing . 
 
FWIW, my findings are favorable concerning how well the stretched audio sounds ...
For what I'm doing I can see how easy it would be to do repeats on each clip and have dialog explaining the playing.
That in itself too me is pretty cool since I can do it all in Cakewalk .
Now after this update , the stretched audio in Cakewalk sounds as good if not better a lot better than a few top tier transcription software apps I have been using for years ...
 
Kenny

                   
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#22
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: zplane élastique - why? 2018/10/12 15:59:01 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby kennywtelejazz 2018/10/13 15:23:21
Extra points for using Pat's Impressions to test :) I transcribed that solo back in '79 and it blew my mind. All from cassette tape!

Noel Borthwick
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: zplane élastique - why? 2018/10/13 15:30:50 (permalink)
 
You must have a golden set of ears to be able to transcribe Pat's music  using a cassette player . wow , awesome accomplishment ...
 
Kenny

                   
Oh Yeah , Life is Good .
The internet is nothing more than a glorified real time cartoon we all star in.
I play a "Gibson " R 8 Les Paul Cherry Sunburst .
The Love of my Life is an American Bulldog Named Duke . I'm currently running Cakewalk By BandLab as my DAW .
 
https://soundcloud.com/guitarist-kenny-wilson
 
https://www.youtube.com/user/Kennywtelejazz/videos?view=0&sort=dd&shelf_id=1
 
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=427899



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