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Well, Mike - I know you directed the question to the "folks that make and sell Sonar," and I also know you're an extremely knowledgeable and well-versed MIDI musician yourself, and so you must have some well considered opinion of your own.

But I'm replying to your languishing thread anyway, even though I'm "just" a Sonar user, and not one of the folks that make sell the program.

I use Sibelius for several reasons.  All I know is that when the occasion arises that I need printed notation, it does the job just fine.  I harbor the feeling that Finale is #1 in the notation market for the same reason Pro Tools is #1 in the DAW market - for totally arbitrary but very successful marketing reasons.  It has nothing to do with Finale being "better" than Sibelius.

But we're talking about an audio/MIDI recording program ("DAW" in that sense) and its relationship to a notation program.  As far as I know, no DAW fares any better than any other, because the two realms, DAW and notation are really in two different countries.  It always gets down to importing data from one program to the other.   In my experience with both Finale and Sibelius, I know that one is dealing with trying to make MIDI data conform to the notation needs - and in both programs it's a struggle at best.

I don't think it matters how you generate your material, in what program you've done it in - X1, Sonar 8.5, Cubase, Pro Tools et al - you'll always be faced with a challenge once that data is brought into a notation program.  And if you're going from notation to DAW - it's not the same challenge, but one equally as difficult.

Notation=a systematized graphing of music - DAW=a way to make music come alive.  Notation programs will have their tricks to also perform the trick of making notated music actually sound something like music when playing back, but that isn't their main reason for existing, and it shouldn't be.

And so forth.

--I guess my feeling is - who cares who thinks which notation is "best"--?  It has nothing to do with recording programs really, and so the question of your post, in the final analysis, is really pretty much a non-question.

Randy B.

Seth Perlstein [Cakewalk
]

Now that's a loaded question if I ever heard one.

Loaded with pure specifics though...

However, the answer merely implied "if we were to answer questions like that we would as a company damage our relationship with one of the competing products producers by answering one way or another".  So in that normal sense of using 'loaded' the answer was much more encumbered than the question.

I'm guessing the answer will be better sought among the peer group.  (or perhaps via his original target group, off the record via PM... )

I have a feeling Mike may have sensed that too.

A rather biased question: Sibelius or Finale?

For me, a non-Cakewalk employee, the music notation program choice is TablEdit.  The main reason is the cost is $60 with free program updates which are regular.  How well it will work with Cakewalk I'm not sure.  I've used it exclusively for notational purposes relative to stringed instruments like guitar, mandolin, bass, pedal steel guitar, etc.  TablEdit works especially well for tabulature as well as standard music notation

TablEdit can export to MIDI files but I've never tried it in conjunction with SONAR.  My assumption is it would work since any standard MIDI file can be imported into SONAR.  And I expect that whether it's Sibelius, Finale or TablEdit you are going to have to do some edits anyway.  Maybe the question is, do you want to spend $600+ or $60 to generate a MIDI file from a music notation program to import to SONAR?

To answer the original question of between Sibelius or Finale, Sibelius would be my choice.

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I don't work at Cakewalk but am a professional composer.  I've used Sibelius for about 8 or 9 years and it is the best.  Finale output looks great, but from what I have heard and seen, is not nearly as easy to use as Sibelius, which also prints great output.   Sibelius's  user interface is very quick.

Jerry Gerber
www.jerrygerber.com

I also preferred Sibelius. On my course, they were a 'Finale' house, but as jsg mentioned, Sibelius was so much easier to use, more intuitive and just less fiddly overall.

Eyes


Another user post. I prefer Piano roll, but out of the two defiantly Sibelius. They are equally as usable for general purpose, Sibelius just feels so much smoother to use though.

Hello, Eyes - Both you and Seth, in post #3, say you prefer the Piano Roll View - I'm not understanding how the PRV is being equated to a notation program.  PRV is the MIDI editor, with nary a notated note in sight - I live and breathe in the PRV, so I'm very familiar with it.  But I know I can't print notation from it -- I don't understand the reference to the PRV here--?

Randy B.

I've used the staff view in SONAR probably more times than I should.  I do think it lacks a lot when comapared to a well defined notation program like Sibelius or Finale.  I would like to see a better staff view in SONAR but I don't think it's in Cakewalk's interest to have a fully functional notational program built into SONAR.  This is why Finale, Sibelius and other dedicated programs exist.  For Cakewalk to compete on that level would be suicide for the app overall, IMO.

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I wouldn't call that a commitment Mike, I would call that false advertising.

I used to beg and plead for better Staff View also, then I bought Sibelius....  It was like I was trying to drive to the store on a bicycle with a rusty pedals and chain, then I bought a brand new corvette.  I never want to look at that rusty old bicycle again.

All horrible analogies and jokes aside,  one day there will be DAW software with notation capabilities on par with professional notation programs.  It's very close to that now with score editors on different DAW.  I assume all the people that argue against it are doing so for the reason John pointed out above, the price would probably double.  Valid point, but in any event it will happen, most definitely not by Cakewalk but someone will do it, then all the big DAW will eventually follow suit.

Everyone used to want to be rock starts, now we all want to be "composers" and writing for film and television/video games.  There are more than several film scoring courses around nowadays that shows the popularity and recent trend.  Many people who dont have needs of notation or staff view could care less if Sonar markets to these kinds of musicians, but I see it as an opportunity to jump on.

  The film scoring and video game composing market is big right now, many people use Cubase because they read Hanz Zimmer and his employees use it...imagine how many Cakewalk sales they would have if another big name like Danny Elfman used Sonar (he does not).  Lots of sales could potentially benefit all Cakewalk users.  I am aware of Call of Duty being written with Sonar which is a good step.  For Sonar to get more of it's share in this popular market they need better scoring to video tools and better notation as been suggested and begged for all over these forums since I joined them.

Just some random thoughts...
   
   

A team of transcriptionists prepared sheet music for the human performers because SONAR wasn't up to the task. I don't know what they used to do it.


I know it goes against what I and others have been arguing for (better staff functions),   but this is true for any DAW not just Sonar.   No film comnposer on any major project is going to settle for the score being generated out of Pro Tools or Cubase or DP. 

Perhaps we should settle for a way to make the 2 different apps interact in a time saving manner.   Of course considering what used to be required 15 years ago to create a score they already do.

It just seems like with technology today it should be better.  And Sonar is missing an opportunity.     

LpMike75


I used to beg and plead for better Staff View also, then I bought Sibelius....  It was like I was trying to drive to the store on a bicycle with a rusty pedals and chain, then I bought a brand new corvette.  I never want to look at that rusty old bicycle again.

I think you miss the point that most of us are making.  I have Sibelius as well but I need to COMPOSE in notation.  I never print from Sonar.  Sibelius is awesome but it does not take the place of being able to compose WITHIN Sonar.  I've tried every workaround, Sibelius and Notion rewired to Sonar, using Sonar as a MIDI module for Sibelius, MIDI import/export ... it's all far to cumbersome and creativity killing. 

rbowser

Eyes


Another user post. I prefer Piano roll, but out of the two defiantly Sibelius. They are equally as usable for general purpose, Sibelius just feels so much smoother to use though.

Hello, Eyes - Both you and Seth, in post #3, say you prefer the Piano Roll View - I'm not understanding how the PRV is being equated to a notation program.  PRV is the MIDI editor, with nary a notated note in sight - I live and breathe in the PRV, so I'm very familiar with it.  But I know I can't print notation from it -- I don't understand the reference to the PRV here--?

Randy B.

Hi Randy,

That was more a general comment than anything. In regards to inputting notes and creating midi compositions I prefer using PVR over notation, that's all. Otherwise Sibelius is my friend. :)

Sorry for any confusion.

I agree with Mike though, notation upgrade is long overdue, and the fact this topic comes up every 3 days should be enough but Cakewalk still seem disinterested. A potential marketing point could be Sonar would be the only PC DAW with decent notation that doesn't rely on a dongle. Surely there is enough of a market in people who want notation features while being able to record audio outside of the studio...