2x SM57's for Mic'ing guitar cab

yes

ORIGINAL: ozzynotwood
I've been doing alot of research into what people (pro's and home users) are using to record their high-gain guitar amps. Looks like the majority of my searches resu;ts in people using 1x SM57 and 1x MD421.

What about using 2 SM57's? Using one for the upper-mids and treble, and other for lower-mids and bass. Anybody tried this? It would be alot cheaper if good results came from that. Like most guitar players, I want a big fat sound.

Anybody had good results from 2x SM57's?

Of course. I'd bet tons of recordings were done with two 57's. Heck, some of the best recordings of guitar I've made was done using Beta 87's.

I currently use a Sennheiser E609 and a 421. Great results. The 609 sounds almost exactly like a 57 to my ears, and the 57 I own is often relegated to Snare duty. It helps that the 609 is a bit more robust.

Good luck!

Corey

I've never done that. Doesn't mean it's not a good idea though. I just don't understand the reasoning. I double mic cabs all the time but never with the same two mics. It just seems strange to me to do that I guess. I like the characteristics of two completely different mics for mixing purposes. Explain to me how you get a bigger fatter sound with the same mics? Are we talking about miking different speakers or the same speaker? I can understand one mic up close and another farther back. Is that what you mean?

ORIGINAL: ozzynotwood

What about using 2 SM57's? Using one for the upper-mids and treble, and other for lower-mids and bass. Anybody tried this? It would be alot cheaper if good results came from that. Like most guitar players, I want a big fat sound.

Anybody had good results from 2x SM57's?

-- Mr. DrumStyxKev has just done this (http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1607569) on Songs Forum with seemless perfection ... multiple SM57's.

WARNING!: As per Bitflipper, 2 mics on an guitar or vocal (similar mics or not) are just begging for serious phase problems and ambiance-chaos. Please please please just use one SM57 per instrument and do multiple takes.

And even with multiple takes phase problems may occur when melodic frequencies are similar or Melodyned. Yeh!

At least pan the 2 seperate takes 30-50% (if not 100%) away from each other to minimize comb-filtering and do some pitch change on a clone or 2nd take (not treble and bass harmonics). Test in mono.

You can get plenty of fatness with multiple takes, chorus, delays with 100% LT-RT panning (Hass trick), etc.

It took me dozens of my song-failures to accept this.

"one mic up close and another farther back. Is that what you mean?"

yes.

While all the warnings are correct etc... it's common for the guitar tones on records we are familiar with to have been recorded with 2 mics.

The phase problems are not that dramatic and actually quite specific to the placement... rather than wild and unpredictable. Listening before hitting R is a must... place the mics where you think they sound good.

In all honesty I usually use two very different microphones... and usually pick something I didn't use yesterday, and 2 '57s are just fine.

best regards,
mike

btw - if you use two mics on the same speaker, you can pretty much not worry about phase cancellation. It's only when you put some distance between them that this problem occurs.

Larry - are you sure about this? I know I've heard phase problems with two mics in very close proximity if they were not incidental (90 degree angle) to each other as in an XY configuration.

Right now I'm favoring a single SM57 and a room mic. Or two different mics and a room mic. One of the mics I place 45 off axis.

i've replaced all of my guitar mics, with a Palmer PDI-09.

OK, I'm not trying to coax ANYONE to use two mics... (or a mic and a direct) who needs it really? It's just a reason to use another mic :-)

But seriously, if you really think that comb filtering is an problematic issue... just try it.

You can also break out the ruler and the calculator and predict just what frequencies will get wiggly.

This all works because for all intents and purposes you are still dealing primarily with a direct source.

OK, if you really use a "room" mic as suggested by Space you will not necessarily be working with direct sound on both channels... but in practice this works great as well.

A common setup up is a mic at the grill and another about 3-5 feet out. If the amp is being played at a reasonably hi level the mics are both dealing with primarily direct sound and the phasing will be quite specific.

Another common setup is a mic at the grill and another on the rear of the speaker... it should result in dead silence right? In practice it doesn't.

Furthermore if you really get paranoid about comb filtering you can use the old tried and true method of NOT mixing the tracks together at the same levels... use a 1::3 to 1::6 ratio and the phasing will be minimized... and the overall sound will also be fatter.

It all works out ok... especially if you like the results.

best regards,
mike

Does this mean you're a believer now? :-)

LMAO

Yes, that's a lot closer to how I feel about it.

In all honesty for my personal work I use the mic I want and I'm done with it.

I sort of think the multiple mic thing is part of a work flow where the engineer is trying to appear to be thorough in situations where the player may or may not be providing a finished tone at the speaker output. That's why everyone's concerned with having options... because the tone in the room isn't *finished* yet I suppose.

I shared my recent ribbon mic guitar rock instrumental recordings with a colleague that has loads of album credits... he was very complimentary about the tones of my guitar work. It embarrassed me actually. When I explained how simple my process is the claim was met with disbelief.

I think the most important part is to actually have a great amp sound... and I've never had this happen without playing in the presence of the amp... so that I can hear it and respond to anything it needs adjustment wise (all the micro adjustments one makes with knobs and playing/touch issues).

If the amps sounds great making a recording is really simple.

It's all the other instruments that take special attention.

all the best,
mike

I love mic'ing with two mics, with different characters, and then finding ways to make big stereo guitar sounds that still function in the Mono realm. I'm still trying to figure out a way to get a DECENT mono monitor in my setup. Ugh. Currently I just hit the Mono button on my mixer.

Funny story: The other day I was mixing away, really pleased with the sounds I was getting, and all of a sudden I had a GREAT idea! I'll do a funky little panning thing on this keyboard part! Yay! Put in some envelopes, just kind of visually slip around all of the place to get a starting point... press play. Dang! It's not seeming like it's moving in the sound field... ok, make them envelopes more extreme. Huh, still nothing. Uh oh... is this a Pan-envelope bug? Restart Sonar. No change... slowly move eyes down from screen, slightly to the right... DOH! Mono button is IN, not out.



Corey

i think the 3:1 ratio was mentioned for volume but not distance... you can greatly reduce phase by keeping mics at least 3x as far away from each other as they are from the source. in a close/room mic situation, if 57 #1 is 8" away from the cab you'd want your room mic to be at least 2 feet from the first mic... or something like that.

if worst comes to worst just nudge the clips until they sound right.

It might be more straight forward for folks trying to get a handle on the context of 'close far' miking to just keep 3:1 completely out of it.
The basic reason for 3:1 is a minimum starting distance to attenuate the 'other mic' so it's effect is not heard -typically to keep two mics on two sources from screwing with each other's tone.
The difference in distance determines where the combing frequencies land (Ratio' by it's self says nothing about the frequencies as changing the close' point for a given ratio changes the second time difference.
Obviously the difference in volumes determines how much the second mic contributes, but it also brings with it how strong the phasing effect. Another up side we have going for us is as the second mic moves out into the free field where the room reflections become stronger it can cover up combing effect of the direct path.