32 bit float more headroom ?

Doubtful, no hardware outputs 32 bits or greater. The best you can hear is 24 bits. Some think its good to keep it 32 bits in the box for extra processing. However I am not convinced it makes any difference.

Please correct me if Im wrong-
Its my understanding that 32 bit float is going on inside the program "Sonar" this means for example that sonar will not calculate a "clip" with a floating integer and thats how you hear people talking about "more headroom".
 
 Inside of sonar from the start of the signal chain all the way to the Sound Cards Main out.  But not after that point your sound card will have to convert the float to a bit integer at that point, and that is where you'll get your "clip".
 
If your meters all the way to the Mains out are showing red clips you are probally not clipping a thing as long as your Mains (soundcard) is not showing a clip.
 
*Warning*
This has nothing to do with plugins, non float plugins will Clip internally and you wont know it.  So if your not sure about your plugins stay out of the red on all meters and always out of the red on the Mains.
 
What good is all this info?  To put it short when the headroom for a 32 bit float is converted by the Sound card to bit data it is doing exactly that "converting" and that is where you get a small loss in sound quality.  Whenever this converting is taking place. 
 
 And also as John had mentioned the sound will only be as good as the Sound Cards bit depth conversion of your A/D converters.

Hi all, I heard about the 32 bit float for more headroom but never really got into it. Im assuming that after I do the Mix then I have to export using a higher bit rate, correct? then send it to Wavelab for mastering,. I would hear a difference if I compare 2 files one done with 32 or 64 bit , and one with 24 bit if I maximize both at -0.1 with same setting?

I'm not sure you use the word headroom for the right purpose.


32 bit does not give you more headroom, not any bit rate...


what gives headroom, is to plan/leave some.... it's a technical decision. not a DAW feature. 


32 bit audio would make sense if you like to leave big amounts of headroom out of your audio files, 
or if you make music that makes lots uses of dynamics. 
or if you tend to print your reverbs and other quiet sources to audio. 

HTH


V

In that case how can I achieve the loudest volume possible? Im using Izotope 5 (IRC 3) with the settings of -0.1  2- 3 db reduction. still not loud enough compared to some songs. Im confused .

Wave


Please correct me if Im wrong-
Its my understanding that 32 bit float is going on inside the program "Sonar" this means for example that sonar will not calculate a "clip" with a floating integer and thats how you hear people talking about "more headroom".
 
 Inside of sonar from the start of the signal chain all the way to the Sound Cards Main out.  But not after that point your sound card will have to convert the float to a bit integer at that point, and that is where you'll get your "clip".
 
If your meters all the way to the Mains out are showing red clips you are probally not clipping a thing as long as your Mains (soundcard) is not showing a clip.
 
*Warning*
This has nothing to do with plugins, non float plugins will Clip internally and you wont know it.  So if your not sure about your plugins stay out of the red on all meters and always out of the red on the Mains.
 
What good is all this info?  To put it short when the headroom for a 32 bit float is converted by the Sound card to bit data it is doing exactly that "converting" and that is where you get a small loss in sound quality.  Whenever this converting is taking place. 
 
 And also as John had mentioned the sound will only be as good as the Sound Cards bit depth conversion of your A/D converters.

Actually this is more complicated than it may seem. First the file depth has little to do with X1's processing bit depth. Then its a question of which audio engine is used 32 bit or 64 bit. Then it depends on the plugins used. Some are full 64 bit and process at 64 bits. Others are 64 bit but process at 32 bits. Still others are 32 bits yet process at 64 bits. The bit metter can let one know what a plugin is doing. Also the FX bin has indicators that show the processing depth of each plugin. Those lines on the bottom of each plugin indicates stereo and bit depth in the FX bin. 4 lines are 64 bit. 2 lines are  32 bit. I hope I have that right.

All things being equal I can't see how a 32 bit audio file is going to have any real advantage to a 24 bit file. At the  processing level  in X1 as above it really depends on what is going on.

What one has to think about is what do you gain from very large files 32 vs 24 bits that no one can ever hear.

Ok John and I might disagree on this but I'm going to try and explain. 

Headroom is probably not the right word but it is if we were in analogue land. This is a highly contentious issue.

Ok so your converters are only 24 bits and no convter yet even uses all those bits I'm not going to try and explain but do some research and you will understand 

Now john is dead on you must not clip your converters but once you are inside your work station Sonar and as long as the 32 fp button is on it is virtually impossible to distort the program audio try it push a compressor into the red freeze the track make sure the freeze button is also set to 32fp. It's impossible to clip at 64fp but not effects  are 64 bit fp this is why I stick to 32 bit fp.

Now this is where the idea of headroom comes in an analogue desk has typically 20 db of headroom at unity. Meaning I can push the program audio into the red without distortion.

Does all that makes sense?


You are  talking about mastering?  Ok this is where it might confuse you and learning some mixing techniques might help.


Now on the mix buss 32 bit fp won't help you, yes by all means export your master file at 32 bit fp this way all your effects are processed at 32 bit fp. 


This is where it gets contentious again some say you can't hear the difference but theoretically your time based effects reverbs delays can be heard better when you finally bounce down and dither to 16 bit.


Ok have you got that?  


You have a mixing problem and whilst IMHO 32 bit fp will make your mixes sound better it has nothing to do with getting hotter masters. Fixing the mix or learning how to master will.


Ok John if u have an issue with anything I have said pm me and we will discuss it. 


Ben

Wave


Hey John thanks for the response.
 
I was under the impression that the lines under the plugins indicate 2 for Stereo and 4 for Surround plugin.
 

You're sort of both correct - look up "FX bin, mono/stereo/surround indicator" in the help file:

You get different numbers of lines for mono/stereo/surround, but these lines are "doubled" for plugs that allow 64bit communication between the plugin and Sonar.

Also note that a plugin that communicates with Sonar at 32bits might still be processing internally at 64bits.

the other thing is 64 bit fp is better to process 24 bit files compared to 32 fp, cuz 32 bit fp is a 24 bit word any way, so theres less errors when normalising the numbers at 64 rather than 32 !!

BenMMusTech


Ok John and I might disagree on this but I'm going to try and explain. 

Headroom is probably not the right word but it is if we were in analogue land. This is a highly contentious issue.

Ok so your converters are only 24 bits and no convter yet even uses all those bits I'm not going to try and explain but do some research and you will understand 

Now john is dead on you must not clip your converters but once you are inside your work station Sonar and as long as the 32 fp button is on it is virtually impossible to distort the program audio try it push a compressor into the red freeze the track make sure the freeze button is also set to 32fp. It's impossible to clip at 64fp but not effects  are 64 bit fp this is why I stick to 32 bit fp.

Now this is where the idea of headroom comes in an analogue desk has typically 20 db of headroom at unity. Meaning I can push the program audio into the red without distortion.

Does all that makes sense?


You are  talking about mastering?  Ok this is where it might confuse you and learning some mixing techniques might help.


Now on the mix buss 32 bit fp won't help you, yes by all means export your master file at 32 bit fp this way all your effects are processed at 32 bit fp. 


This is where it gets contentious again some say you can't hear the difference but theoretically your time based effects reverbs delays can be heard better when you finally bounce down and dither to 16 bit.


Ok have you got that?  


You have a mixing problem and whilst IMHO 32 bit fp will make your mixes sound better it has nothing to do with getting hotter masters. Fixing the mix or learning how to master will.


Ok John if u have an issue with anything I have said pm me and we will discuss it. 


Ben

First I don't think I said anything about clipping. But it doesn't matter. The rest I not sure I understand so I am not in opposition on it. Simply because I have no idea what you are saying. But don't let that bother you.

i mean 32 bit fp is roughly 6.277101735 x 10 ^ 57 level of resolution, and 64 bit fp 9.007199255 x 10 ^ 15 with the exponent of 11, those kinda calculations make it compelling to use 64 fp, fairs do's, whether you can hear the difference is anutha question, but im happy in the knowledge with that kinda maths **** with my **** !!!

Just as I said above just because a plugin is 64 bits doesn't mean it processes at 64 bits. The two things have nothing to do with one another.

Yea that's the thing I always forget and chregg and drew have brought it up is the higher the integer rate the less mistakes in processing.  Ill leave it to thoses two to explain it better they are better at this than I am. 

I always think of the mixing side of things I think that's we're John is confused by what I say.

Once we're inside the box I describing it as clipping but it's more to do with mistakes and calculation. Yea drew and chregg.

See I'm taking in analogue audio land so what were really talking about is integer floating point. I describe it in an analogue way 32 bit bit gives us this much headroom but it's more about the Mathis calculating and mistakes.

Yea the chregg and drew?

One thing the original poster can do is work out how many tracks he is mixing say 30tracks and use the trim on the master bus and turn it down by up to 10 db giving you a better chance of hitting the right levels for mastering.

Also use your rms meters and aim for -18 db average level on all your individual tracks this will make mixing and mastering easier use the the trim again so you can hit those ranges.

This will help than more than worrying about 32 bit Fp and integer numbers

Ben

Hey John
 
What I think your saying Is that a plugin labeled 64bit means that it works on a 64bit platform but is not calculating at 64bit. 
 
The plugin is still just a 32bit plugin.  But some plugins do work at a 64bit level.  I verified using the bitscope
before and after all of my plugins just incase I have meters bouncing in the red that can not be easily changed.
 
If that makes any sense.

Wave


Hey John
 
What I think your saying Is that a plugin labeled 64bit means that it works on a 64bit platform but is not calculating at 64bit. 
 
The plugin is still just a 32bit plugin.  But some plugins do work at a 64bit level.  I verified using the bitscope
before and after all of my plugins just incase I have meters bouncing in the red that can not be easily changed.
 
If that makes any sense.

You have it right. 

Throwing in some tangential food for thought here: it's easy to worry about this stuff WAY too much. There's a lot to be said for just assuming the people building the tools have done their job right, getting on with mixing, and seeing where you end up. If you're getting unsatisfactory mixes, then tracking down and eliminating all your plugs that are processing at 32 bit rather than 64, or whatever, will not make the difference you're looking for. Not saying it's not interesting or worth discussing, but the importance of this stuff tends to get way overstated on forums like this.