Helpful ReplyA case against monthly upgrades

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pwalpwal
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/04 14:28:46 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
pwalpwal
trtzbass
Vectorial sizable GUI,

don't hold your breath - if that was ever going to happen, skylight was the opportunity



You might just be surprised then. There is an ongoing project to modernize and improve the UI which will happen in phases.

i am! good news

just a sec

#31
Keith Albright [Cakewalk]
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/04 22:30:22 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby karhide 2017/09/05 10:05:06
One factor in the update this month...
Several of us had vacations at different times during the month.
That said, we busted before we knew we'd be out for a couple of weeks.
Some of us even checked up on things/did some testing while on vacation.
Also, yes, we work on short, med, long range things so not all coding has to fit in < 30 days.

Keith
#32
Joe_A
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/04 23:38:31 (permalink)
I love the updates. It also stands to reason some updates have visible items, and others are more under the hood. All are good.
I've always had a rock steady install, hiccups here and there, but have spent less time "on software setting up steps" and more time using the software since CC and monthly updates started. *As a lifetime upgrades User. Yay me....
Yay team!

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#33
JohnEgan
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/05 14:05:53 (permalink)
Good Day,
I think the monthly updates and fixes are great, and more so fixes as they are fixed (e.g., 2017.06 had 2 versions within month to quickly fix GUI issues with TV/monitor users, as reported in forum, much appreciated along with new features and great we didn't have to wait a year for this fix and related new features).
I had sometimes wondered why Sonar was constantly in need of being "fixed", thinking it was somewhat like owning an old FORD (Fix Or Repair Daily)", LOL. While Im no computer scientist or power user and have limited experience, needs and have only "demo'd other DAW's, I attribute this to the challenges there must be in maintaining functionality of existing versions while keeping up with constantly evolving, standards/protocols; Windows OS's; computer technologies; audio hardware; and integrating third party software; and while also introducing new versions and features that take advantage of these new technologies; that or a conspiracy by "The Bakers" to maintain employment, LOL, .
As much as I'd like to hear "there are no fixes this month, everything's working perfectly", and/or "new features have been fully beta tested and functional under all possible scenarios, hardware technologies and user idiosyncrasies before release" I wouldn't want to hear "sorry we got nothing new, maybe next year".
 
 
In any "case", I think the case for monthly updates and fixes is the stronger one.
Cheers     

John Egan
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#34
John
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/05 14:33:50 (permalink)
For the life of me I can not see a downside to the monthly updates for the end user.  I do understand how CW can do it but that is not our concern anyway. As a user I have the option to update when I want. There is no law that requires anyone to update as soon as an update is available. I do update but no one else has to.  
 
I think there is no legitimate case for not having monthly updates. I believe that any argument not in favor of updates is based on misinformation and misunderstanding. A non issue. The fact is CW has pulled this off and done darn well in the process. Its kind of disconcerting to see this thread knowing CW has been very successful with the new monthly model for a rather long time.
 
It has no impact on the end user in any negative way. If nothing else its something to look forward to each month.
I have noticed far less complaint postings from what it used to be when a new yearly version came out. Our trouble shooting skills have gone dormant. I believe its due to a much tighter QC and an easier way to identify trouble in the model CW has pioneered. Its a win win all around.  
 
Just my thoughts on the subject.   
  

Best
John
#35
candlesayshi
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/05 14:59:22 (permalink)
Anderton
[To quantify, I think a lot of the newer paradigms are oriented toward composers, while programs like SONAR, Pro Tools, etc. have their roots with players.



I find that really interesting, because I've been really into composing lately. Meaning sitting at the piano with a pad of staff paper, and the more I have been doing it, the less I've liked working in SONAR at all. Though, my impression has been before working with Live that it was better for players, because it can itself be "played" like an instrument and lends itself well to improvisation and doing things on the fly while you play. Maybe I've got it all mixed up in my head.
#36
Anderton
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/05 15:24:45 (permalink)
candlesayshi
Anderton
[To quantify, I think a lot of the newer paradigms are oriented toward composers, while programs like SONAR, Pro Tools, etc. have their roots with players.



I find that really interesting, because I've been really into composing lately. Meaning sitting at the piano with a pad of staff paper, and the more I have been doing it, the less I've liked working in SONAR at all. Though, my impression has been before working with Live that it was better for players, because it can itself be "played" like an instrument and lends itself well to improvisation and doing things on the fly while you play. Maybe I've got it all mixed up in my head.



I feel Ableton Live is an anomaly. People ask why I use SONAR in the studio and Live for live performance. I feel that SONAR is a half-million recording studio disguised as software, while Ableton Live is a musical instrument disguised as software. But, the nature of the "musical instrument" is composer-oriented in the sense that Session View's native habitat is loops, which composers can use in lieu of expertise on the instruments that make up the loop.
 
To add to my comment, I feel SONAR excels at songwriting, which to me is different from traditional composition. With the latest SONAR updates, it's never been easier for me to create songs efficiently...far more so than writing on guitar or piano, which I never thought would happen when using a computer.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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candlesayshi
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/05 21:24:15 (permalink)
Anderton
To add to my comment, I feel SONAR excels at songwriting, which to me is different from traditional composition. With the latest SONAR updates, it's never been easier for me to create songs efficiently...far more so than writing on guitar or piano, which I never thought would happen when using a computer.



Seems like it's probably either another "different strokes for different folks" situation, or perhaps just a difference in how we define things to ourselves... because it doesn't come across that way for me at all. I feel that SONAR is excellent at production, but trips over itself when it comes to songwriting as there's very little about working in it that is immediate. So, writing songs in it becomes more of a hurdle race for me. Rather than the flowing state that it should be.
#38
Anderton
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/05 23:18:44 (permalink)
candlesayshi
Anderton
To add to my comment, I feel SONAR excels at songwriting, which to me is different from traditional composition. With the latest SONAR updates, it's never been easier for me to create songs efficiently...far more so than writing on guitar or piano, which I never thought would happen when using a computer.



Seems like it's probably either another "different strokes for different folks" situation, or perhaps just a difference in how we define things to ourselves... because it doesn't come across that way for me at all. I feel that SONAR is excellent at production, but trips over itself when it comes to songwriting as there's very little about working in it that is immediate. So, writing songs in it becomes more of a hurdle race for me. Rather than the flowing state that it should be.



The workshop I've done at NAMM, GearFest, and AES on "Songwriting with Computers" is based on SONAR, and being edited. It will be posted on the Harmony Central YouTube channel sometime in the next few weeks. It may include tips you find helpful. But I'm not using staff to do this, I'm writing with instruments.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#39
BobF
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/06 12:46:20 (permalink)
Anderton
candlesayshi
Anderton
To add to my comment, I feel SONAR excels at songwriting, which to me is different from traditional composition. With the latest SONAR updates, it's never been easier for me to create songs efficiently...far more so than writing on guitar or piano, which I never thought would happen when using a computer.



Seems like it's probably either another "different strokes for different folks" situation, or perhaps just a difference in how we define things to ourselves... because it doesn't come across that way for me at all. I feel that SONAR is excellent at production, but trips over itself when it comes to songwriting as there's very little about working in it that is immediate. So, writing songs in it becomes more of a hurdle race for me. Rather than the flowing state that it should be.



The workshop I've done at NAMM, GearFest, and AES on "Songwriting with Computers" is based on SONAR, and being edited. It will be posted on the Harmony Central YouTube channel sometime in the next few weeks. It may include tips you find helpful. But I'm not using staff to do this, I'm writing with instruments.




Craig - Please post a big, bold link to it when it's ready.

Bob  --
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#40
pwalpwal
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/06 12:54:34 (permalink)
i use ableton live for composing/arranging/songwriting/performing - sonar doesn't come anywhere near to the flow therein, i'm not sure even how it could, so i'm interested to see this too, "different strokes for different folks" indeed

just a sec

#41
smallstonefan
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/06 13:23:31 (permalink)
As a guy that runs a software company I can tell you that the summer months are brutal. Between vacations of employees and vacations of people we want to sell to - it's a hassle to keep things moving properly. It seems like I have a manager out every week so moving big projects forward goes a bit slower.
 
Once the kids go back to school things start to settle down...
#42
Billy Buck
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/06 13:36:59 (permalink)
John
For the life of me I can not see a downside to the monthly updates for the end user.  

 
The beauty of the monthly updates.......they are all voluntary. Have no need or desire to
update monthly then fine................as all updates are cumulative then update once a year. Personally, 
I enjoy and look forward to the monthly updates. Quite refreshing to get new features/enhancements
and timely bug fixes on a monthly basis rather then having to wait for the next big 12-18 month upgrade 
cycle of years past.
 

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#43
fireberd
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/06 13:59:48 (permalink)
I probably only use a small percentage of Sonar and mostly use it as a "tape recorder" for recording.  I do use some of the built in VST's and also Izotope Ozone for my mastering.  But, I like the frequent (monthly) updates.  It keeps my installation up to date with the bug fixes.  One caveat I've been in computer tech and management for many years and "managing change" is what we lived by in the Industry - it was always changing and we accepted it.  I see that right now with those that "hate" Windows 10, when I've accepted it and have no issues with it. 

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#44
RobWS
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/06 14:16:55 (permalink)
There is only one downside to monthly updates as far as I'm concerned.  Keeping up with the documentation.  I do download updates on a semi-regular basis.  I just can't keep up with what's new.  Every time Cakewalk announces a new update is ready, I print out all the documentation included.  Then I'll put that into a 3 ring binder to come back to later for review.  Even if I don't use a new feature or two, I still want to read about it and even experiment with it just in case I might want to try the feature in a new project.
 
Do I do music on a full time basis? No.  I'm sure if I did, I could keep up with all updates as they're released.  As it stands now, I am more than a year behind reviewing every new feature.  If I'm paying for it, I want to know about it.  So maybe my routine is a bit sluggish, but I only have so much time in a week.
 
Other than that minor complaint, which probably only applies to me and my work flow, Cakewalk is doing something beneficial for all of us with their monthly update service.
#45
rmfegley
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/06 15:40:12 (permalink)
IN SUMMATION: 

The OP's main concern seems to be that working on monthly updates somehow makes working on more complicated long-term development less efficient, as if they'll never get around to tackling the big stuff with full energy if they're always busy with small-ticket items. And that's a misunderstanding of current software development practices, which 35mm addressed in his post in some detail.

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#46
trtzbass
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/07 21:13:47 (permalink)
Hey, thanks you all for participating to this thread.
Even tho I admit I don't know how software developement works, I am ceratinly not picturing the bakers scratching their head month to month trying to come up with something to put on the plate.
I evidently have not expressed clearly enough because no one got the main reason behind my post (not considering the exchange I had with Craig Anderton that was more personal and centered on my preferences).
 
Let me rephrase:
Are we, as the user base, allowing the bakers to do their job in the best way possible?
In the last days before the release of the new early access I noticed a lot of questioning in a few threads, with people inquiring about the date of release of the update. Quite a bit of speculation, a touch of inquisitive attitudes here and there. If I put myelf in the shoes of a developer I would perceive that as pressure.
Hence my question: is our attitude towards the monthly releases conducive to good work? I myself must have refreshed the forum main page like forty times in the impatience of seeing the early access, er, accessible.
Could it be that all that scrutiny on release dates and alleged skipped months has an effect on how the bakers structure the releases?
How would we react if the bakers decided to skip a month for some reason like (knock on wood) unexpected last - second instability or because they'd redirect the efforts to complete a critical update?
Are we enabling the developers to use their best judgement or do we make them feel like they need to give us something every month just to keep faithful to their pledge?
Am I making more sense?

Jordan Brown
 
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#47
Anderton
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/07 21:54:48 (permalink)
trtzbass
Are we enabling the developers to use their best judgement or do we make them feel like they need to give us something every month just to keep faithful to their pledge?

 
I think the point you may be missing is that there's always something that can be released. As an analogy...I tend to gather up the songs I do over time and release them as an album. But I could just as easily post each song when it's done.
 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#48
trtzbass
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/07 21:59:52 (permalink)
Anderton
trtzbass
Are we enabling the developers to use their best judgement or do we make them feel like they need to give us something every month just to keep faithful to their pledge?

 
I think the point you may be missing is that there's always something that can be released. As an analogy...I tend to gather up the songs I do over time and release them as an album. But I could just as easily post each song when it's done.
 


That makes a hell of a lot of sense in those words.
 
As a side note I want to remark how my observation came from a place of respect for the developer and it was more like an attitude check on our side. When you are a user / customer sometimes it's easy to forget that the people on the other side are fellow humans

Jordan Brown
 
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#49
John
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/08 11:37:55 (permalink)
trtzbass
Hey, thanks you all for participating to this thread.
Even tho I admit I don't know how software developement works, I am ceratinly not picturing the bakers scratching their head month to month trying to come up with something to put on the plate.
I evidently have not expressed clearly enough because no one got the main reason behind my post (not considering the exchange I had with Craig Anderton that was more personal and centered on my preferences).
 
Let me rephrase:
Are we, as the user base, allowing the bakers to do their job in the best way possible?
In the last days before the release of the new early access I noticed a lot of questioning in a few threads, with people inquiring about the date of release of the update. Quite a bit of speculation, a touch of inquisitive attitudes here and there. If I put myelf in the shoes of a developer I would perceive that as pressure.
Hence my question: is our attitude towards the monthly releases conducive to good work? I myself must have refreshed the forum main page like forty times in the impatience of seeing the early access, er, accessible.
Could it be that all that scrutiny on release dates and alleged skipped months has an effect on how the bakers structure the releases?
How would we react if the bakers decided to skip a month for some reason like (knock on wood) unexpected last - second instability or because they'd redirect the efforts to complete a critical update?
Are we enabling the developers to use their best judgement or do we make them feel like they need to give us something every month just to keep faithful to their pledge?
Am I making more sense?


Your point assumes we have power over the development team. We are users on a peer to peer forum. We are not the owners of CW.  

Best
John
#50
35mm
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/08 12:51:57 (permalink)
trtzbassHow would we react if the bakers decided to skip a month for some reason like (knock on wood) unexpected last - second instability or because they'd redirect the efforts to complete a critical update?
How would we react if the bakers decided to skip a month for some reason like (knock on wood) unexpected last - second instability or because they'd redirect the efforts to complete a critical update?
Are we enabling the developers to use their best judgement or do we make them feel like they need to give us something every month just to keep faithful to their pledge?
Am I making more sense?


There is no undue pressure from the users on the bakers as such. The bakers will have their own goals and time frames that they work to. There will always be something to release each month. Maybe some thing won't be ready for final release and will be pulled out before release, but there will be other stuff ready to roll out.
 
I don't think the users are impatient. Maybe a little bit excited! If anything I should imagine the pressure comes from the market place.
 
As I explained in my last post agile development practices involve breaking up jobs into smaller units spanning shorter amounts of time so the monthly release is likely much more efficient and better for the bakers than the old annual or long term release and probably makes the whole caboodle easier to manage all round.

Splat, Win 10 64bit and all sorts of musical odds and sods collected over the years, but still missing a lot of my old analogue stuff I sold off years ago.
#51
Audioicon
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/10 22:06:55 (permalink)
35mm
To the OP,
 
I don't think you understand how software development works. You seem to be under the impression that the bakers are scrabbling around all month trying to come up with that month's update. That isn't the case. They use a versioning system such as git, which uses branches. One of those branches is the production branch which is what you end up using, but there is also a master branch and lots of development branches coming off that. What gets released in the production branch at the end of the month is a culmination of stuff that's been in development and testing for months. Behind the scenes, developers will be working on all sorts of stuff, trying out new ideas many of which may never see the light of day, fixing bugs etc.
 
Something else that modern software companies use is an agile development method e.g. scrum. That's too complicated to go into here, but in essence, it involves splitting everything into manageable chunks, assigning each chunk to a developer and assigning a time span to that. Then holding regular meetings to assess the progress of each thing. This all breaks down to make everything manageable and highly productive. And here's the big thing. A monthly release fits into the agile method perfectly! So monthly releases are so much more efficient all round and result in much higher quality.
 
Monthly releases are also more efficient for us users for similar reasons. It means that we don't have to cope with getting our heads around a major new release that suddenly changes the whole landscape and has to be re-learned all in one go. Instead, we get bite size changes each month which are far easier to understand and integrate into our workflows. If a release introduces a new bug, that bug can be fixed and rolled out much quicker without having to wait a year for the next major release or fiddling about with messy patches.
 
There are users who dislike the monthly release model, but perhaps if they understood a little about software development they would understand that it is a much better system all round. It's worth remembering that much of the Sonar you will be using in June 2018 exists in a branch now that bakers have access to and that makes our current version of Sonar look dated! They are constantly working in the future so that we can be up to date today and monthly releases mean that we are even more up to date - by about 11 months!




I would agree with everything you have written except, what you have written is a text book "wish list." of what companies would have people believe. Again, nothing you stated is misleading but it does not really work that way.

That is what the public relations of development is, when the rubber meets the road, whatever can be put together will be delivered, not in all cases but it happens too often.

Unless you work for Cakewalk, nobody really knows what is happening, or what software methodology is being used. I have worked for massive software companies only to discover, that despite what is represented to the public, is night and day compare to what is happening behind the scenes.

To the OP credits, I have never seen someone so carefully write a post so that no one is offended. He qualifies all of his remarks and writes a declaimer for each sentence affirming his love for Cakewalk.

Does anyone have the right to say they dislike a certain model? Should someone complain about anything?

Again, you have not say anything inaccurate, I am simply saying that it does not work that way, and will not solve the OP's problem.

The core features I need form Sonar appears to work well. But nothing is perfect.




#52
Audioicon
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/10 22:15:54 (permalink)
trtzbass
Even tho I admit I don't know how software developement works,


You are a Customer/User you should not be required to Understand Software Development to have an opinion about something you have purchased. You made a very constructive post.

I bought a Yamaha Montage, and I honestly do not think it's worth the Price point, I do not have to understand anything to have some negative feeling or an opinion.

All I can tell you is that, I truly believes Cakewalk is doing what's in the Software best interest so that overall users are pleased. The reason I say this is because it is in the Company's best interest to keep the software special and attractive.

So far I am pleased but you do have the right to have a different opinion without requiring a degree in computer science.






post edited by Audioicon - 2017/09/10 22:38:44
#53
Audioicon
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/10 22:18:43 (permalink)

The beauty of the monthly updates.......they are all voluntary.



So true, I only update if there is something I need and sometimes I do not need the stuff except if there are fixes required.
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mudgel
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Re: A case against monthly upgrades 2017/09/11 13:07:26 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby FCCfirstclass 2017/09/11 14:21:02
When the monthly updates were first announced, Cakewalk stated quite categorically that their commitment was to create updates that would benefit us and they were putting themselves under that pressure not the members.

After more than 30 months the Bakers have well and truly lived up to their commitment to us and did it in the face of a lot of naysayers who would have had Cakewalk fold because their plan was impossible to implement.

Well here we are with the months rolling on, the naysayers have been proved wrong and rather than pressure i reckon the Bakers could well and truly gloat for what is quite an outstanding achievement for a small company in a rather crowded niche market place.

Chorus:
And so say all of us...............

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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