Helpful ReplyA free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces)

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SilkTone
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2016/05/04 22:37:19 (permalink)

A free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces)

I've been running into this problem a few times now. At some point some plugin gets added that introduced a lot of delay and it's hard to track down which one it was. Unfortunately AFAICT, SONAR doesn't give us a way to see PDC info per-plugin like other DAWs do (am I just missing something...?).
 
So I quickly banged together a VST3 plugin that will display the Plugin Delay Compensation that the host reports to the plugin. So the idea is that you insert this PDC Info plugin in-between your other plugins, and it displays the PDC value at that point in the signal chain.
 
So then if you insert 2 of these plugins, one before and one after some other plugin for which you want to see its PDC value, you can calculate that sandwiched plugin's PDC value by looking at the difference in two PDC values.
 
Usage:
  1. Download the plugin from here.
  2. Put the file where your 64-bit VST3 plugins are located.
  3. Open SONAR (or initiate a plugin scan) and insert the plugin into your FX chain from: Insert Audio FX -> VST3 -> Tools ->PDC Info.
  4. Press Play
 
Notes:
  1. You need to Stop/Start the transport to show the correct PDC info in the PDC Info plugin UI.
  2. You can insert multiple instances of the PDC Info plugin at different points in the signal chain.
  3. You can easily drag existing instances of the plugin to different FX chain locations, or to different tracks etc. So you only need to insert two plugins, then just drag drop them around different plugins to see that plugin's PDC info (remember to Stop/Start the transport each time!).
  4. There is a bug in SONAR where it doesn't tell the plugin the input latency, only the output latency. AFAICT, the VST3 spec requires the host to tell the plugin both input and output latency, but unfortunately it looks like SONAR isn't implementing this correctly. Because of the missing input PDC value, things will look a bit backwards. So a PDC Info plugin at the start of an FX chain will show a higher PDC value than the instance at the end of the FX chain. This "output" PDC value is the time remaining until you will actually hear the signal (including the output driver's delay).
 
 
 
post edited by SilkTone - 2016/05/06 18:08:05

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#1
bluzdog
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Re: A free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces) 2016/05/04 23:26:57 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Zargg71 2016/05/05 04:24:57
Awesome! Thanks. There's a Sonar Resources and utilities sticky in the software forum: http://forum.cakewalk.com/Sonar-Resources-and-Utilities-m3392713.aspx that would give this the exposure it deserves.
 
Rocky
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mettelus
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Re: A free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces) 2016/05/05 00:06:22 (permalink)
Very nice, thank you. I am on my cell now but definitely want to try this out.

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azslow3
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Re: A free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces) 2016/05/05 03:52:55 (permalink)
Nice! It works great!
 
I was wondering why Sonar is not showing that information on its own.
 
That is a good way to explain why some plug-in is not "live capable". And for those who know that such effect exist, really see the difference (which can be rather small to hear).

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Zargg
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Re: A free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces) 2016/05/05 04:11:36 (permalink)
Thanks, Steven. Downloaded, and will try it tonight.
All the best.

Ken Nilsen
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#5
pwalpwal
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Re: A free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces) 2016/05/05 06:42:43 (permalink)
thanks for this!

just a sec

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Brando
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Re: A free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces) 2016/05/05 07:04:37 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Mesh 2016/05/05 08:40:01
Awesome Steven. Many thanks for filling a void once again. (You're the originator of the Sonar Aux track concept as far as I am concerned - glad you're still around though if you went to work for Cakewalk that'd be ok- bring Azslow with you)

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lfm
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Re: A free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces) 2016/05/05 07:32:43 (permalink)
Would be a good feature request for Sonar to do like in ProTools which I like a lot.
 
You can make a module visible in mixer console that shows the current applied pdc to each strip, as well as modify if you need to - really good thinking to make you feel in control. So you see both how much loaded plugins delay, and how much compensation is applied to that track, and give your own offset from that.
 
Then there is a system dialog that show how much delay is applied total.
 

 
This plugin combined with mixrecall can be very useful to insert little everywhere you want info.
Wasn't it Silktone that extended routing abilities with a plugin before Cakewalk made patchpoints - so I gather this is another one for Cakewalk to follow up on.
 
So thanks to Silktone for being the forerunner....
post edited by lfm - 2016/05/05 08:11:46
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mettelus
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Re: A free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces) 2016/05/05 07:59:28 (permalink)
Just installed and tested this, very nice. I have been toying around "straddling" plugins (i.e. an insert before and after), just to look at numbers.
 
A couple quick questions/comments:
  1. For a specific plugin being straddled, the PDC of that plugin would be the difference of the "Output" values, correct? Reason I ask this is the example below - better stated, the "output" number is the difference of the PDCInfo to what?
  2. Realizing how different the guts' processing would affect the PDC, I am wondering if SONAR users could contribute to a listing of these "offenders."
Specific chain I am looking at:
   1. PDCInfo
   2. iZotope Nectar 2 Breath Control
   3. PDCInfo
   4. iZotope Nectar 2
   5. PDCInfo
 
Values with all 5 online -
   1. Output = 626.9ms
   3. Output = 2.7ms
   5. Output = 23.2ms
 
Now, I toggle off #2 in the SONAR Track FX bin (only Breath control), new values are -
   1. Output = 626.9ms (same)
   3. Output = 606.4ms (spiked dramatically, but still lower than #1?)
   5. Output = 626.9ms  (also spiked, now identical to #1?)
 
Basically, I am confused "why" and possibly not using this properly (nothing new there).
 
Quick Edit: I realized I had installed the new Saffire MixControl the other day, which defaulted to 512 sample buffer on me. I dropped it down to 96 and the above numbers are very similar (pretty much 2ms less across the board for both tests). Another interesting point is that PDC is identical for 32, 48, and 96 sample buffers, but spikes up .7ms at the 64 sample setting.... this may also have use to tweak buffer settings, since I found that odd, but consistent.
post edited by mettelus - 2016/05/05 08:33:07

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Chregg
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Re: A free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces) 2016/05/05 09:14:21 (permalink)
excellent stuff
 
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Re: A free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces) 2016/05/05 09:20:16 (permalink)
its crashing sonar with me
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SilkTone
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Re: A free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces) 2016/05/05 15:19:56 (permalink)
Thanks for the feedback! I'll try to answer the points that were brought up...
 
bluzdog
Awesome! Thanks. There's a Sonar Resources and utilities sticky in the software forum: http://forum.cakewalk.com/Sonar-Resources-and-Utilities-m3392713.aspx that would give this the exposure it deserves.
 
Rocky

 
Thanks Rocky, I'll post details about the plugin in that thread.
 
mettelus
Just installed and tested this, very nice. I have been toying around "straddling" plugins (i.e. an insert before and after), just to look at numbers.
 
A couple quick questions/comments:
  1. For a specific plugin being straddled, the PDC of that plugin would be the difference of the "Output" values, correct? Reason I ask this is the example below - better stated, the "output" number is the difference of the PDCInfo to what?

 
The PDC Info plugin itself doesn't add any delay, so the value at its output should be the same as at its input. If we look at the VST3 spec, then my understanding is that the "Output" value is supposed to be the delay that is seen from that plugin's output until the audio is sent to the speakers. The point here is that the plugin is supposed to use this info so that it can sync its display to what the user hears. So for instance a VU meter should use this info to delay its graphics by that amount of samples so that it looks like it is in sync with what you hear.
 
However the spec also says this should include the delay that the driver reports to the host, which is another place where SONAR isn't doing the right thing it seems. When I put PDC Info as the very last plugin in my main bus, it shows 0.0 ms. This is wrong since there is still the delay between SONAR and the speakers that the driver itself introduces. SONAR knows what this delay is since it shows it to us in the Driver settings, however it doesn't add it to the delay it reports to the plugins when it should.
 
Regardless, when you look at just the difference between two instances of the PDC Info plugins, that should be the amount of new delay that just those sandwiched plugins introduce.
 
 
2. Realizing how different the guts' processing would affect the PDC, I am wondering if SONAR users could contribute to a listing of these "offenders."

 
That could be helpful.
 

Specific chain I am looking at:
   1. PDCInfo
   2. iZotope Nectar 2 Breath Control
   3. PDCInfo
   4. iZotope Nectar 2
   5. PDCInfo
 
Values with all 5 online -
   1. Output = 626.9ms
   3. Output = 2.7ms
   5. Output = 23.2ms
 
Now, I toggle off #2 in the SONAR Track FX bin (only Breath control), new values are -
   1. Output = 626.9ms (same)
   3. Output = 606.4ms (spiked dramatically, but still lower than #1?)
   5. Output = 626.9ms  (also spiked, now identical to #1?)
 
Basically, I am confused "why" and possibly not using this properly (nothing new there).

 
In theory the earlier outputs should be higher than the later outputs. I don't know why it isn't always the case. This is where some insights from someone from CW would be great! Seems we uncovered some mysteries once we took a look under the hood...
 

Quick Edit: I realized I had installed the new Saffire MixControl the other day, which defaulted to 512 sample buffer on me. I dropped it down to 96 and the above numbers are very similar (pretty much 2ms less across the board for both tests). Another interesting point is that PDC is identical for 32, 48, and 96 sample buffers, but spikes up .7ms at the 64 sample setting.... this may also have use to tweak buffer settings, since I found that odd, but consistent.



Yea it's hard to know what some plugins are doing, or why they are doing it. For instance I found out that LP-64 EQ adds exactly 100.0 ms delay. That sounds a bit coincidental. So my guess is that the actual delay it requires depends on its settings. So instead of telling the host a different delay each time you change its settings (and hence causing glitches), it just gives itself some headroom so that it presents a consistent 100 ms delay regardless of its settings (and adds some extra delay internally to get to exactly 100 ms overall). I won't be surprised if many plugins do something similar.
 
As for 32, 48, 96 buffer sizes... I would think the plugins have their own internal buffering so the input buffer sizes don't affect the actual delay they introduce. For instance a linear phase EQ requires a certain amount of samples to be present for its algorithm to work properly. So it can't rely on the input buffers being large enough and hence buffers it into larger sliding window buffers internally.
 
Chregg
its crashing sonar with me



Chris, sorry to hear that. I just took a VST3 sample plugin and made the least possible changes to display the PDC info, so I'm not sure why it is crashing for you. Does it crash the instant you add it, or at some other point?

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Chregg
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Re: A free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces) 2016/05/06 07:52:21 (permalink)
the instance i add it, appear in fx bin then crash
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ChristopherM
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Re: A free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces) 2016/05/06 09:54:32 (permalink)
Interesting. It's not obvious to me why on a chain such as PDC Info - LP MB - PDC Info, the Out readings on both instances of PDC Info change if LP MB is enabled or disabled (albeit the first changes only slightly).
 
Edit - I think I mean "later" when I say "first".
post edited by ChristopherM - 2016/05/06 10:33:55
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Re: A free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces) 2016/05/06 09:58:39 (permalink)
For those experiencing crashes, I assumed PDC Info was 64-bit and so I put in in \Program Files\Common Files\VST3\ although I did initially think about putting it in \Program Files (x86)\Common Files\VST3\ in case it was 32-bit. Where have you put it?
 
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Re: A free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces) 2016/05/06 10:05:35 (permalink)
Sadly, most of the Izotope plugs introduce insane amounts of delay. I disable them whenever I need to program or track anything. Cake's LP-Multiband  (previous version) is also a bit naughty..

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Keith Albright [Cakewalk]
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Re: A free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces) 2016/05/06 10:41:55 (permalink)
SilkTone
  1. There is a bug in SONAR where it doesn't tell the plugin the input latency, only the output latency. AFAICT, the VST3 spec requires the host to tell the plugin both input and output latency, but unfortunately it looks like SONAR isn't implementing this correctly. Because of the missing input PDC value, things will look a bit backwards. So a PDC Info plugin at the start of an FX chain will show a higher PDC value than the instance at the end of the FX chain. This "output" PDC value is the time remaining until you will actually hear the signal (including the output driver's delay). 
Steven,
 
Useful utility.
Thanks for the report, we'll look into it.  
 
Keith

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Re: A free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces) 2016/05/06 11:06:47 (permalink)
Nice. I'll pass this along to DigiFreq readers.
 
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Re: A free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces) 2016/05/06 11:23:22 (permalink)
I'm thinking SONAR applies PDC even for bypassed plugins, which is why you can (usually) enable and disable them on the fly without glitching. That could explain why the numbers don't change as you might expect them to when plugins are disabled.


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ChristopherM
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Re: A free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces) 2016/05/06 12:18:47 (permalink)
Bitflipper - Rather, I think Sonar only recalculates PDC when you start the transport. If you enable or disable a plug whilst transport is running, there is no immediate re-calc (as you can see from the counters on PDC Info) but you do hear glitches occasionally, which is presumably to do with the change in DSP load or something.
 
Clarification - I therefore do not think that Sonar allows PDC for plugs that are disabled when the transport is started. (It's the end of a long week!)
 
post edited by ChristopherM - 2016/05/06 12:42:41
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SilkTone
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Re: A free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces) 2016/05/06 15:37:00 (permalink)
Chregg
the instance i add it, appear in fx bin then crash


What version of SONAR do you use? I only tested with Platinum 2016.04 x64 on Windows 10. This is a 64-bit VST3 plugin so make sure to put in in your 64-bit plugins folder.
 
ChristopherM
Interesting. It's not obvious to me why on a chain such as PDC Info - LP MB - PDC Info, the Out readings on both instances of PDC Info change if LP MB is enabled or disabled (albeit the first changes only slightly).
 
Edit - I think I mean "later" when I say "first".

 
I noticed this too. It is a small change (0.1 ms in my case), but still it is a bit strange. Maybe it is just a rounding thing.
 
Keith Albright [Cakewalk]
Steven,
 
Useful utility.
Thanks for the report, we'll look into it.  
 
Keith



Keith, thanks for looking into this. Also as I mentioned in another place, it seems SONAR also isn't adding the driver delay. AFAICT this is the same value that is displayed in Driver Settings for the Output latency. Similarly the reported input delay sounds like it should include the latency as reported by the driver, which is shown as the Input latency in Driver Settings.
 
LJB
Sadly, most of the Izotope plugs introduce insane amounts of delay. I disable them whenever I need to program or track anything. Cake's LP-Multiband  (previous version) is also a bit naughty..

 
Yea I think the rule of thumb should be to stay away from any plugins designed for mastering while still in the early stages. They tend to add huge amounts of delay because they assume you are done with any live tracking.
 
bitflipper
I'm thinking SONAR applies PDC even for bypassed plugins, which is why you can (usually) enable and disable them on the fly without glitching. That could explain why the numbers don't change as you might expect them to when plugins are disabled.

 
ChristopherM
Bitflipper - Rather, I think Sonar only recalculates PDC when you start the transport. If you enable or disable a plug whilst transport is running, there is no immediate re-calc (as you can see from the counters on PDC Info) but you do hear glitches occasionally, which is presumably to do with the change in DSP load or something.
 
Clarification - I therefore do not think that Sonar allows PDC for plugs that are disabled when the transport is started. (It's the end of a long week!)

 
I think what happens is a combination of that, here is why:
 
If you play around with the "Drum Bus Master" FX Chain plugin, you will see some interesting behavior wrt when exactly the PDC is calculated, reported and applied.
 
For instance, if you bypass the whole FX Chain plugin before playback starts, then the reported delay for the FX Chain plugin will be 0.0 ms. If you then enable the FX Chain during playback, the reported delay will still be 0.0 ms and the track audio will become delayed by 100 ms (so it will be out of sync audibly).
 
However here is where it becomes a bit weird... If you enable the FX Chain plugin but disable the nested "LP-64 EQ" plugin and then start playback, the reported delay is 0.0 ms (the LP-64 EQ is the only one of the 3 nested plugins adding delay apparently). Now during playback enable the nested LP-64 EQ plugin. You can hear a glitch but the reported latency is still 0.0 ms, however the track stays in sync. So this implies that SONAR did update the PDC values but never told the other plugins (like PDC Info) that the PDC has changed. The end result will be that while audio stays in sync when the plugin was enabled, the UI will become out of sync (VU meters inside plugins etc).
 
I'm not sure why there is such a huge difference in behavior between disabling/enabling the whole FX Chain plugin vs a nested plugin inside the FX Chain. It shows that in some cases SONAR will update PDC on the fly, but in other cases it won't. It also shows that it will never tell anyone when it does update the PDC on the fly. Maybe it is too much overhead to tell each and every plugin about PDC changes while the transport is running.
post edited by SilkTone - 2016/05/06 16:05:38

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pwalpwal
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Re: A free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces) 2018/09/26 13:40:38 (permalink)
bump

just a sec

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Re: A free plugin to show PDC Info (the delay that each plugin introduces) 2018/09/26 18:21:16 (permalink)
Missed seeing this when thread was hot.  Thanks.

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